Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Hadders]

I agree that once contactless reaches Stevenage, the LNER only fares will most likely be withdrawn.

I think they could be retained as paper/eTicket returns if they undercut the Oval fares. Arguably, that isn't in the spirit of Oval but that's another matter.

The LNER tickets really ought to be withdrawn. The saving is small and I strongly suspect that most of them get used on the wrong train.

The (GTR operated) TVMs at Stevenage bizarrely give more prominence to the LNER only fares than the Any Permitted fares (displayed as ‘.’), despite there being many more GTR operated services between Stevenage and London than LNER services.

People travelling between Stevenage and London and Stevenage buy a ticket and get on the first fast train. Most won’t know or care about the difference between ‘LNER only’ and ‘.’

Even if a passenger boards the correct train on their outward journey I’d bet my mortgage that on their return many end up on a GTR service instead of LNER.

 

[Sleepy]

The LNER tickets really ought to be withdrawn. The saving is small and I strongly suspect that most of them get used on the wrong train.

The (GTR operated) TVMs at Stevenage bizarrely give more prominence to the LNER only fares than the Any Permitted fares (displayed as ‘.’), despite there being many more GTR operated services between Stevenage and London than LNER services.

People travelling between Stevenage and London and Stevenage buy a ticket and get on the first fast train. Most won’t know or care about the difference between ‘LNER only’ and ‘.’

Even if a passenger boards the correct train on their outward journey I’d bet my mortgage that on their return many end up on a GTR service instead of LNER.

Are GTR RPI's rarer than the proverbial rocking horse poo or are they more interested in no ticket or railcard people normally ?

 

[Sonic1234]

Are GTR RPI's rarer than the proverbial rocking horse poo

This. Never seen one. If it wasn't for the dispute section of this forum, I'd have said GTR don't have RPIs.

GTR are gateline obsessed though, always surprising what small stations they will gate.

 

[LUYMun]

When you have split gatelines at station, each gateline covering a specific number of platforms, it becomes even easier and accurate as you can include/exclude specific services.

This is how automatic delay repay works for smartcards.

Or perhaps ditch the gatelines and have card readers on the platforms, which have data fed into it which trains have arrived?

 

[Starmill]

Worth noting it's been eight years since Contactless was extended to Gatwick Airport in January, and Thameslink Only, Not Gatwick Express and Advance tickets (Southern Only, Thameslink Only) have continued to be offered during that time.

 

[185143]

This. Never seen one. If it wasn't for the dispute section of this forum, I'd have said GTR don't have RPIs.

GTR are gateline obsessed though, always surprising what small stations they will gate.

I've seen a few. Mainly on the GN side of the network. But they are very, very rare.

Same goes for c2c. They love gatelines, pretty much every c2c station is fitted. When their RPIs are out on trains, they have to be accompanied by SIA badged security, which probably says a lot about the efficiency of gatelines!

 

[greaterangrier]

A long time ago, I posted about some fares routed TILBRY&GRAVESND (valid on the ferry between the two stations).

These fares seem to have been removed from September this year.

Is this related to Oval?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Joe Paxton]

A long time ago, I posted about some fares routed TILBRY&GRAVESND (valid on the ferry between the two stations).

These fares seem to have been removed from September this year.

Is this related to Oval?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

My bolding - these rail tickets were never valid on the ferry itself, you had to pay seperately for the ferry journey. This caused some (understandably) confusion in the past when I think they were described as being routed 'via Tilbury Ferry' or similar.

However since 1st April 2024 there has not been a ferry service, which I'd suggest would explain the removal of said rail fares rather than anything to do with Oval.
www.thurrock.gov.uk/ferry-services/tilbury-to-gravesend

 

[Mojo]

My bolding - these rail tickets were never valid on the ferry itself, you had to pay seperately for the ferry journey. This caused some (understandably) confusion in the past when I think they were described as being routed 'via Tilbury Ferry' or similar.

That is correct. These tickets were previously much under discussion on the forum. They were previously TILBY EXCL FERRY (Tilbury excluding ferry) which was implied that you had to travel via Tilbury but pay extra for the ferry.

This was then changed to TILBY/GRAVESND in 2013 because the tickets provided a very cheap way of travelling on HS1 between Stratford and Ashford Int’l under the shortest route rule.

Unfortunately for Southeastern, they failed to understand that “/“ means OR not AND, which effectively didn’t change the validity by much at all, hence it was subsequently changed to “&.”

I would agree with you the tickets were removed as the ferry was scrapped.

 

[mattdickinson]

The latest Rail and Tube map doesn't cover the extension of contactless validity to High Wycombe (but does now include the Luton Airport DART)

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

 

[DMckduck97]

Any updates on a date for the contactless extension to go live?

Days away from being ready and now it's been delayed nearly 3 months without any update or new go live.

 

[cav1975]

The latest Rail and Tube map doesn't cover the extension of contactless validity to High Wycombe (but does now include the Luton Airport DART)

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

Am I alone in thinking that the presentation of this information is poor for a non-expert? My reading is that, for example, neither Oyster nor contactless are valid at Radlett but that contactless is valid at the stations either side.

 

[JonathanH]

Any updates on a date for the contactless extension to go live?

Days away from being ready and now it's been delayed nearly 3 months without any update or new go live.

Presumably all a matter of priorities in the light of recovery from the cyber attack, and the Project Oval extension hasn't yet got to the top of the pile.

 

[bakerstreet]

Am I alone in thinking that the presentation of this information is poor for a non-expert? My reading is that, for example, neither Oyster nor contactless are valid at Radlett but that contactless is valid at the stations either side.

No I agree that’s a strange way to depict Radlett.

(screenshot from map attached)

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Potters Bar appears to be similarly depicted
<screenshot of relevant part of map attached>

 

[MikeWh]

It's because both stations accept Oyster but are outside the numbered fare zones.

 

[cav1975]

It's because both stations accept Oyster but are outside the numbered fare zones.

Thanks Mike

If it said "Outside fare zones, Oyster & Contactless accepted" where it currently states "Outside fare zones" then it might start to be understandable to a layman.

 

[Recessio]

I do sympathise slightly with TfL in those situations, they're not helped by the haphazard way different NR operators integrated with Oyster.

EDIT:

Thanks Mike

If it said "Outside fare zones, Oyster & Contactless accepted" where it currently states "Outside fare zones" then it might start to be understandable to a layman.

I think this would be a very good way to do it

 

[weeklycommuter]

Any updates on a date for the contactless extension to go live?
Days away from being ready and now it's been delayed nearly 3 months without any update or new go live.

Still no news on the contactless extension to 47 stations postponed by four months so far.

 

[DMckduck97]

Still no news on the contactless extension to 47 stations postponed by four months so far.

To think it was what 48 hours from go live, and a cyber breach is still impacting the rollout four months later.

Me thinks it wasn't ready in the first place...

 

[Snow1964]

Still no news on the contactless extension to 47 stations postponed by four months so far.

Is it just me, or is the thread title with a completion date 8 months ago, just seem wrong now.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

I was on an LNR train yesterday and think - not 100% sure - as I was looking at the map above the doorway as we were waiting to alight, that it showed the line out from Euston to Bletchley as being in the grey contactless zone. Ready for the delayed implementation.

 

[MikeWh]

To think it was what 48 hours from go live, and a cyber breach is still impacting the rollout four months later.

Me thinks it wasn't ready in the first place...

That's a bit unfair. The update to the fares data was due to be rolled out with the September fares revision. That was completely cancelled as all systems were locked down. Scheduling a fares revision is not a quick process and given that access to the systems was only restored at the end of November, it's not actually that much later on. The problem now is that preparation is under way for the March major fares revision which is obviously an important one to get right. Someone has to take a decision as to whether it is safe to combine the major revision with the addition of lots of new stations. It wouldn't surprise me if the answer to that consideration was no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a bit unfair. The update to the fares data was due to be rolled out with the September fares revision. That was completely cancelled as all systems were locked down. Scheduling a fares revision is not a quick process and given that access to the systems was only restored at the end of November, it's not actually that much later on. The problem now is that preparation is under way for the March major fares revision which is obviously an important one to get right. Someone has to take a decision as to whether it is safe to combine the major revision with the addition of lots of new stations. It wouldn't surprise me if the answer to that consideration was no.

The Oval fares changes were already done - Bletchley (and points south) fares to/via London within the Oval area are now all single-fare priced* and have been for months and the CPAY ones are there too.

* Oi, LNER, look over here..there are still returns at twice the singles too!

 

[MikeWh]

The Oval fares changes were already done - Bletchley (and points south) fares to/via London within the Oval area are now all single-fare priced* and have been for months and the CPAY ones are there too.

The fares were in the rail industry database, but I don't believe they were in the TfL database used by contactless.

 

[MrJeeves]

The Oval fares changes were already done - Bletchley (and points south) fares to/via London within the Oval area are now all single-fare priced* and have been for months and the CPAY ones are there too.

There are separate National Rail fares setting rounds and TfL fares revisions.

RDG-retailed fares have been updated, but no fares are defined within TfL's systems for this.

CPAY fares on BRFares and in the RDG fares data exist purely for informational purposes. There are (were?) even times when rounding means the Railcard-discounted CPAY fares don't match what TfL charge in practice!

I think there have also been cases when RDG have provided updates fares too late to be incorporated into the TfL fares revision, and has meant TfL-controlled machines have sold tickets at the old prices for a significant amount of time as a result.

 

[MikeWh]

There are (were?) even times when rounding means the Railcard-discounted CPAY fares don't match what TfL charge in practice!

Not just railcard discounted fares. Sometimes the fares are just wrong!

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think there have also been cases when RDG have provided updates fares too late to be incorporated into the TfL fares revision, and has meant TfL-controlled machines have sold tickets at the old prices for a significant amount of time as a result.

That was definitely the case for 2024. Almost certainly for 2021, 2022 and 2023 as well given the late announcement of the annual fare increase, which also meant new NR fares weren't shown in retail systems until the day they came into force.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any indication as to whether the single leg pricing that was implemented in December 2023 has proved revenue positive, neutral or negative, and in turn whether that pricing will be extended to the other Oval routes in the near term, even if Contactless implementation will take longer?

Given the whole thing was originally meant to be in place by May 2024, it might be expected that the pricing has been determined even if the technology hasn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any indication as to whether the single leg pricing that was implemented in December 2023 has proved revenue positive, neutral or negative, and in turn whether that pricing will be extended to the other Oval routes in the near term, even if Contactless implementation will take longer?

Given the whole thing was originally meant to be in place by May 2024, it might be expected that the pricing has been determined even if the technology hasn't.

All Oval routes will need to be single fare priced and time restrictions be aligned with those of TfL. TfL's systems can't cope with return fares. If it hasn't been done already it will have to be at some point unless they are going to have different pricing between paper and contactless which would just be confusing (though there are odd inconsistencies about how time restrictions work between paper and contactless).