Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Using the ONS built-up area population estimates, I think the only more populous or similarly sized places in England and Wales without an intercity service are Barnsley / Dearne Valley, Brighton, Farnborough / Aldershot, Luton (excluding the very limited EMRs to Leicester and north), Southend, Birkenhead, Norwich, Crawley, Ipswich and Mansfield.
More or less any long-distance service from Brighton, Southend or Crawley (or Farnborough or Ipswich?) would be quicker via London
Farnborough / Aldershot and Luton have more frequent London services than Northampton
Birkenhead has Liverpool across the Mersey
Norwich's Liverpool service may not be an intercity one, but it does at least provide a large number of connections
So it's only really Barnsley and Mansfield which are as limited in frequency and area of services as Northampton is amongst settlements of its size.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It is no different to Redhill's position on the Brighton line. While people in Redhill would arguably like services to the South Coast, the reality is that the majority of passengers on the South Coast are better served by those services omitting Redhill. Northampton is not somewhere people travelling longer distances want their trains to call at.
I'd guess that the same holds for Barnsley; if it's 15+ minutes longer via Barnsley than via Bolton-upon-Dearne, going via the latter and letting Sheffield and Wakefield cater for Barnsley makes some sense.
Using the ONS built-up area population estimates, I think the only more populous or similarly sized places in England and Wales without an intercity service are Barnsley / Dearne Valley, Brighton, Farnborough / Aldershot, Luton (excluding the very limited EMRs to Leicester and north), Southend, Birkenhead, Norwich, Crawley, Ipswich and Mansfield.
More or less any long-distance service from Brighton, Southend or Crawley (or Farnborough or Ipswich?) would be quicker via London
Farnborough / Aldershot and Luton have more frequent London services than Northampton
Birkenhead has Liverpool across the Mersey
Norwich's Liverpool service may not be an intercity one, but it does at least provide a large number of connections
So it's only really Barnsley and Mansfield which are as limited in frequency and area of services as Northampton is amongst settlements of its size.
Norwich is the terminus of the GEML intercity service (if you want to call it that).
The frequency argument for Northampton I certainly get and it should be worthy of a turn up and go (4tph) service and there certainly looks like capacity to do it (certainly would be after a fully provided HS2) but it is also an awkward service due to railway history & geography.
I really am struggling to see where the demand is for more than the current 2tph service. I'm not being awkward here, just not seeing it. 4tph has been run, 3tph has all the way through Euston - Brum. If the demand was there it would have stayed. The busiest I see it is on a Saturday. Even then I've made London without someone sitting next to me.
Post-pandemic the traditional commuter isn't there in numbers. I see a token number of regulars on my train. I recognise some who travel occasionally. Leaving Northampton on any peak train you would have a seat, you would probbaly be sharing on leaving Milton Keynes on a 1Wxx or Leighton Buzzard on a 1Yxx. it is very common I board my train on a Friday and have whole carriage to myself. Even on leaving MKC you would easily score a pair of seats to yourself into Euston on a Friday.
As @Horizon22 said above a mix of history and geography have caused Northampton to be on the loop but it's nothing new.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also suspect history has a part to play in the travel demands of Northampton. They will have evolved over the years based on on what service is offered, service is then based around the demand. Not saying things can’t change but history is playing a part here I suspect.
and doing so is turgid in the extreme. Northampton doesn't need to be on the intercity network, especially if it slows down services from the more significant Milton Keynes!
I really am struggling to see where the demand is for more than the current 2tph service. I'm not being awkward here, just not seeing it. 4tph has been run, 3tph has all the way through Euston - Brum.
The 3tph service was designed purely for operating convenience. The 3 trains to Euston were in the order i) all stations ii) semi-fast iii) fast. The result was that they all arrived at Euston within a very short time period - every hour, there was one that arrived at Euston 4 minutes before the next. I suggest that most journeys are planned to arrive at the destination a particular time rather than depart at a specific time, so it's hardly surprising that there were few passengers from Northampton who chose to leave 15 minutes earlier just to arrive 4 minutes earlier .On the Down, there was a similar bunch; I quite often caught the up Scotland via West Midlands service changing at Milton Keynes before the Rugby stop was added. This was the connection shown by NRES and announced by the T.M. as such but with 3 t.p.h. the wait at Milton Keynes was - 35 minutes. The only service where a double back from Milton Keynes is still required since the Rugby stops is the Liverpool and the connections are reasonable now that 2 t.p.h. means, amazingly, a train every 30 minutes.
But your general argument is quite correct. Whether by accident or design Northampton is a manufacturing and transport hub, the latter by being at the centre of the 'Golden Triangle'. Living there, I'm pleased that it is not a dormitory town for London commuters.
//
New rail stations and line re-openings are often suggested because 'they will improve the economy of the area'. it is fair to say that the Northampton train service, particularly to Inter City destinations, is not the best, but the towns' population has increased naturally (i.e. without Development Corporation subsidies) very significantly over the last 20 years - probably as quickly as other places with a much higher profile and subsidies for attracting new population. Overall, Northamptonshire is a high population growth county. and it has lost 87 railway stations - perhaps the largest figure for any English county. An interesting correlation...
Northumberland has ~75 disused stations by my count, excluding Newcastle / North Tyneside and the reopening stations on the Northumberland line, but has only grown 10% since 1981 (Northamptonshire's grown 44% since then). Cumbria's grown by 7% since then despite a loss of, by my count from the Adlestrop rail atlas, over a hundred stations. That being said, Bedfordshire's only lost around a dozen stations and has grown 42% since 1981, so I think the main point's that the South Midlands have grown quickly in recent decades.
Friday - two in my carriage on departure from Northampton in the morning peak.
Went into London first thing today and 12 car from Northampton, I was in the back set that had come from New Street so busier but had a seat to myself, just. A lot of people travelling across Northampton but a healthy number got off too.
Service has been poor the past few days due to crew availability, a lot cancelled north of Northampton. A signal failure on Thursday evening made for a miserable commute too.
To be honest it would be better if they could do something to speed up the service rather than increase the frequency, especially late evening and Sundays. I know it would require the 4-track railway to be open for longer but journey times are much slower late night.
Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?
I think it is perfectly adequate (2tph of useful trains is the general pattern throughout the south WCML for most stations - some like Bletchley have two stoppers as well but most wouldn't choose to use them as they take much, much longer than the fasts), but it would be good if the services could all be 12-car south of Northampton. They are now getting quite busy particularly with Birmingham passengers.
The 3tph was a bit of a sham, one was a semifast and was overtaken. There have only ever been 2 meaningful services per hour in recent years, and now it's more useful because they're actually 30 minutes apart.
Agree the evening service is a bit rubbish and I do wonder if flighting could be used to put a few faster services in by sending a fast (Leighton, Bletchley, MKC, Wolverton, Northampton) in front of the slow and terminating the stoppers at MKC (P2 or P5 depending which pair is in use).
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
What I find most ridiculous, is that there a no services from Northampton for most of the day that stop at Tring, Berko and Hemel. Prior to Covid, one of the 3 an hour did. With the curtailing of the stopping service at Milton Keynes, you would have to change there, or Bletchley/Leighton Buzzard, as the stopping services from Milton Keynes leave around 5 minutes before the services from Northampton, you have to wait around 25 mins
There is not significant demand for that. The service that is in place is classic Network SouthEast, really - "fast to the outer reaches of the stopper thence stopper". That's well proven as a service pattern for services where London is the primary destination.
One of the two does do Watford for connections.
The 25 minute gap is a bit annoying - I guess it comes up because these services aren't following each other on the slow lines - if it was a two track railway the fast would go first then the slow.
I suppose you could extend one of the stoppers back to Northampton, but I'm really not sure there is the need. There are a few that do in the peaks if I recall which is probably enough.
I agree re 2tph usable to London (fast) - maybe another service on the slows for interim demand (unlikely) but Bletchley and Watford potentially, if the fasts don't call there. More so for frequency to Milton Keynes.
One service that might be worth considering is an EWR service to Oxford - or even Reading. Would give Northampton a lot more direct connections than currently available. If platforming at MKC is tricky, extending one to Northampton might be a good development for the town.
There is a dedicated bay with no trains using it at Milton Keynes. If EWR only have six units, tying one up duplicating other services between Milton Keynes and Northampton isn't ideal.
Things improved dramatically with the Euston - Trent Valley - Stoke - Crewe semi-fast service came in in 2010 or so? Except the operator soon decided to ditch the Northampton stop in favour of a faster service va Weedon. (Kind of a repeat of the Worcester lost stop on the early Derby/Nottm - SW semi-fasts of the 1980s)
As someone who uses the LNWR Trent Valley service from Lichfield to Euston on a regular basis, the removal of the Northampton diversion in the mid 2010's was one of the best things LM did for the route along with making it 8 car.
I recently used the first service of the day on a Sunday and it still goes via Northampton and it reminded me of what a slow, tedious route it was.
As someone who uses the LNWR Trent Valley service from Lichfield to Euston on a regular basis, the removal of the Northampton diversion in the mid 2010's was one of the best things LM did for the route along with making it 8 car.
I recently used the first service of the day on a Sunday and it still goes via Northampton and it reminded me of what a slow, tedious route it was.
The route via Northampton is 2 miles 26 chains longer but, benefitting from being built in the mid 1880s has a better alignment than the Old Line not least because the innovation of Compulsory Purchase meant that, unlike the Old Line, you didn't have to avoid the lands of the wealthy. There's a 20 PSR at the platform end but that hardly handicaps calling trains.
I wonder why the multi-billion pound West Coast Modernisation never included any attempt to increase the line speed. - I think it's mostly 75 mph, but if the speed was improved - and it's not 125 all the way on the Old Line - there would not be much of a time handicap to serve a very large town.
Perhaps you found it tedious because the Sunday services you mention stands at Northampton for up to 20 minutes, for reasons that aren't clear. The Euston - West Midlands - Scotland weekday services stand at New Street for a similar period, but avoiding that tedious delay wouldn't be a sound reason for suggesting trains shouldn't call there.
I agree with you that it has a poor service, especially for its size. And it has probably suffered economically by being off the mainline / overlooked. For its size it's quite lowkey.
That's why I suggested Oxford might be an interesting add. London and Birmingham are well catered for (and MK) - I would think Bicester and Oxford, and possibly even onwards, would add a lot of new connections and options for locals.
The route via Northampton is 2 miles 26 chains longer but, benefitting from being built in the mid 1880s has a better alignment than the Old Line not least because the innovation of Compulsory Purchase meant that, unlike the Old Line, you didn't have to avoid the lands of the wealthy. There's a 20 PSR at the platform end but that hardly handicaps calling trains.
I wonder why the multi-billion pound West Coast Modernisation never included any attempt to increase the line speed. - I think it's mostly 75 mph, but if the speed was improved - and it's not 125 all the way on the Old Line - there would not be much of a time handicap to serve a very large town.
Perhaps you found it tedious because the Sunday services you mention stands at Northampton for up to 20 minutes, for reasons that aren't clear. The Euston - West Midlands - Scotland weekday services stand at New Street for a similar period, but avoiding that tedious delay wouldn't be a sound reason for suggesting trains shouldn't call there.
Is there any degree of railheading at Milton Keynes by commuters living in Northampton’s suburbs?
A fast 10 mile or so drive to a 35 minute non-stop InterCity service looks much better than a town centre drive to a 60 minute drag on a suburban train.
Similarly, Stafford is a popular railhead for Telford residents as it halves the rail journey time.
Is there any degree of railheading at Milton Keynes by commuters living in Northampton’s suburbs?
A fast 10 mile or so drive to a 35 minute non-stop InterCity service looks much better than a town centre drive to a 60 minute drag on a suburban train.
Similarly, Stafford is a popular railhead for Telford residents as it halves the rail journey time.
The area of Northampton at the extreme South West is nearest to Milton Keynes station - and also adjacent to M1 Junction 15. However, the journey to Milton Keynes station is 20 miles and not particularly straightforward; the quickest route is not via the M1 but the A508 and Google gives the journey time from Saxon Street - a residential road close to J15 - currently (morning rush) as 33 minutes. By contrast, the journey from there to Northampton station is currently 15 minutes.
From this, the time penalty for driving to Milton Keynes is 18 minutes, and the time advantage around 24 minutes if using Avanti from Milton Keynes.
Inconclusive, really - but at anywhere else in Northampton the extra driving time to Milton Keynes would reduce further the slight advantage.
People living very close to M1 J15 possibly chose that location because of the convenience of being able to access the motorway very easily and the train is not even considered by them as an option.
Interesting.
I live on the East side of Northampton, and the distance to Wellingborough station is about a mile more than to Northampton but much more straightforward. When I worked in London I commuted via Wellingborough and then to London by non-stop Inter City services. Although I had the advantage of a status pass there were certainly other people who lived in the same area and commuted similarly.
A Venn diagram showing 'people who live in Northampton, commute to London by train, and do not use Northampton station' would be an interesting one and might be not insignificant, but the way that train surveys work (based on asking existing rather than potential travel) makes it extremely unlikely that the will ever know the answer.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I assumed that you were on the first Down service, which stands at Northampton for 18 minutes.
Sunday services are either Old Line blocked and all trains via Northampton or New Line blocked and Northampton-calling trains diverted via the Old line and a RRB for Northampton. It's difficult to make comparisons because in both circumstances timetables will be adjusted to accommodate the extra services. It's very rare that both Old and New Lines are open on Sundays.
It's also difficult to understand why adding 2 1/2 miles to the journey (by diverting over a route with a good alignment) results in an increase in journey time of half an hour, and why trains are only timed at about 50 m.p.h. start to stop. However, the railway answer seems to be 'so no long-distance trains will call at one of the largest towns in England' rather than 'how can we increase the speed of trains over the New Line?
I also know a few people who live in Northampton and drive to MK to get trains. Likewise people in the east who head to Wellingborough. I know a couple who bus it in from the suburbs to Northampton station.
On a Sunday the WTT is constructed to send all services via the Loop in the morning but Weedon opens at midday.
Lengthy dwells at Northampton seem nothing new when you look back and afunction of marrying up the timetable at Rugby and Hanslope Junction. At least it sits at a station so you can jump off for fresh air, vape, smoke, get a drink from upstairs.
Not sure the obsession with extending East West Rail to Northampton. What is the demand? Is this where the lovely people of Northampton want to go? As I keep saying if there was huge demand this would be picked up and looked into. But if this is the way we're going can we have a direct train from Northampton to Southampton for the small number of times a year I make this journey.
Before the 'Corby Electrics' the service was far faster, and one could argue that a Meridian was more comfortable than a 350 - buffet trolley, at-seat 1st class. People from the Eastern side of Northampton certainly commuted via Wellingborough then.
'Similar trains' is true, but even LNwR manage to avoid running Euston - Northampton peak hour trains reduced to 4 cars, or cancelling them altogether leaving 1 hour gaps. Quite often 2+2 seating, too - all the 360s remain as 3+2
Had I still been commuting I would certainly have given up on Wellingborough, and I can't imagine that anyone living in my area still would still commute that way either.
But we were always told that the railways only carried commuters under duress and that the sector had high cost for low revenue per journey. Now the railway has lost most of it they should be jubilant - they'll no longer need the previous subsidy for that purpose...
But we were always told that the railways only carried commuters under duress and that the sector had high cost for low revenue per journey. Now the railway has lost most of it they should be jubilant - they'll no longer need the previous subsidy for that purpose...
Off topic here but, yes! All those years of protestation about expensive peak led resourcing and of season tickets being the railways most heavily discounted tickets. Turns out, it was a major financial pillar! Allegedly.
Off topic here but, yes! All those years of protestation about expensive peak led resourcing and of season tickets being the railways most heavily discounted tickets. Turns out, it was a major financial pillar! Allegedly.
Yes, I'm puzzled by this, too. We are always told that the reason for West Midlands Trains being, surprisingly, one of the TOCs requiring the biggest subsidy was 'because of the commuter traffic, stupid' (that answer has appeared on threads here back in the day). There is truth in this, of course - 350s that slumbered at Camden during the day and made only one round trip per day from Northampton. Same with drivers, more so as one couldn't drive in both the morning and evening peak.
But I haven't noticed any massive reduction in the subsidy now little of this happens - rather the reverse, speaking railway-wide.
On the topic of the Northampton loop being slower, I think Euston – Carlisle's ~1:40 faster via Warrington than via Stoke, Crewe, Manchester and Bolton when they were diverted that way over the early May bank holiday weekend despite only being ~20 rail miles longer. I know the situations aren't the same as there's ~240,000 journeys per year between Warrington / Wigan and London / Birmingham whilst the alternative to Northampton is running nonstop, and pathing through Piccadilly 13 and 14 probably doesn't lend itself easily to intercity services passing through, but could either 'loop' realistically be sped up?
Could local services be extended from Birmingham International to Coventry? If that is possible then the Northampton services would not need to call at the intermediate stations between Coventry and Birmingham International.
Could local services be extended from Birmingham International to Coventry? If that is possible then the Northampton services would not need to call at the intermediate stations between Coventry and Birmingham International.
RailUK was launched on 6th June 2005 - so we've hit 20 years being the UK's most popular railway community! Read more and celebrate this milestone with us in this thread!
