Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Western Lord]

Clearly for anyone who needs to be in the Glasgow area in the morning.
A 9.50 arrival would be ok for morning meetings/interviews etc.

Or you can stay in Leeds and do your meetings/interviews on line.

 

[InkyScrolls]

What is the primary market for a train from Leeds at 06:21 which only calls at Shipley, Skipton and Carlisle?

Don't read too much into it! I've only looked at one possible timing, others are available.

 

[Topological]

Clearly for anyone who needs to be in the Glasgow area in the morning.
A 9.50 arrival would be ok for morning meetings/interviews etc.

The corresponding Manchester to Glasgow trains can be busy. I remember taking the early one as an 8-car 350, though that was pre-Covid. The only difference there was that there were other journeys served (including Manchester to Preston / Carlisle) and so there was a reasonable churn of passengers. The proposed Leeds to Glasgow does not have that many intermediate stops in cities and duplicates provision between Carlisle and Glasgow.

Don't read too much into it! I've only looked at one possible timing, others are available.

I was just wondering to what extent that specific path took advantage of faster times out of Leeds in the early morning.

Later paths have the option to bring in Nottingham and Sheffield to add markets.

 

[Bartsimho]

The corresponding Manchester to Glasgow trains can be busy. I remember taking the early one as an 8-car 350, though that was pre-Covid. The only difference there was that there were other journeys served (including Manchester to Preston / Carlisle) and so there was a reasonable churn of passengers. The proposed Leeds to Glasgow does not have that many intermediate stops in cities and duplicates provision between Carlisle and Glasgow.



I was just wondering to what extent that specific path took advantage of faster times out of Leeds in the early morning.

Later paths have the option to bring in Nottingham and Sheffield to add markets.

Yeah. Leeds' northward connections are poor so having more Leeds to Scotland services are very much needed.

The idea of including Sheffield and Nottingham is also key as there is one train an hour between Nottingham and Leeds when with their distance and size (and loadings from being on that train) there should probably be more. You'd be looking at:
Nottingham 0
Chesterfield 37 (from 1R70)
Sheffield 52 (from 1F35)
Wakefield Westgate 79 (from 1S45)
Leeds(a) 99 (from 1S45)
Leeds (d) 109
Shipley 121
Skipton 139
Settle 156
Carlisle 238
Glasgow 319

timings from:

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Skipton 30
• Settle 47
• Carlisle 129
• Glasgow 210

Very competitive time end-to-end as well with 10 mins in Leeds to reverse

 

[xotGD]

Yeah. Leeds' northward connections are poor so having more Leeds to Scotland services are very much needed.

The idea of including Sheffield and Nottingham is also key as there is one train an hour between Nottingham and Leeds when with their distance and size (and loadings from being on that train) there should probably be more. You'd be looking at:
Nottingham 0
Chesterfield 37 (from 1R70)
Sheffield 52 (from 1F35)
Wakefield Westgate 79 (from 1S45)
Leeds(a) 99 (from 1S45)
Leeds (d) 109
Shipley 121
Skipton 139
Settle 156
Carlisle 238
Glasgow 319

timings from:

Very competitive time end-to-end as well with 10 mins in Leeds to reverse

About the same as current journey times Nottingham to Glasgow. The best I found was 5 hours, change at Crewe.

 

[Bartsimho]

About the same as current journey times Nottingham to Glasgow. The best I found was 5 hours, change at Crewe.

Yeah and it might be faster here and there with some faster accelerating traction (and the Nottingham to Chesterfield time has a stop in Alfreton because everything on the Erewash valley stops or freight is pathed at 75mph not 80mph to keep the same timings as passenger services). I was also trying to compare pathed speed to line speed to see if you could gain any extra but I don't think you can do.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Interesting to look at the latest ORR passenger figures for stations on the S&C, which someone(s) has kindly put on the Wikipedia site very quickly. Most stations have seen growth on the year 2022-23, and quite a few are above the 2019-20 pre-Covid figures - but not the two key stations, ie Appleby and Settle, which still have some way to go to fully recover.

Armathwaite has done quite well, but from a lowish base, of course - unless there is some short faring going on.

Interestingly, the third busiest station on the route is Gargrave, with 35,000 + entries and exits - which is a wee bit better than Kirkby Stephen, which I think has 'traditionally' held third spot. (OK, Gargrave is not strictly on the S&C, but you know what I mean.)

Anyway, while the trend for the intermediate stations is positive, unless there is evidence of growth between Leeds and Skipton to Carlisle that we can't see, I can't see any rail operator pushing for more trains on the route just yet.

EDIT: Just thought, maybe I'm supposed to put a link up or I'll get a rocket from the controller. Here's Appleby

Appleby railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[30907]

Gargrave has a fair amount of new(ish) housing and, I suspect, is becoming commuter-land for Leeds. Historically it was only served by Bentham line trains (and the Ribbleheads IIRC).

 

[urbophile]

As someone who spend his childhood in Gargrave, those figures are interesting. The demographic of the village has changed radically since I knew it and I suppose there are far more professional people commuting to jobs in Leeds and possibly Bradford and other places. Previously it was mainly working class people who worked locally and mostly , travelled no further than Skipton; or well-off landowners or business people who rarely used public transport. The train service has slightly improved while the bus service has deteriorated in frequency. Though I don't think there is a massive amount of new housing: not enough to turn it from a smallish village to a commuter town at any rate. Compare it with Cononley just south of Skipton; it's a slightly smaller village but with a much better train service.

 

[stevieinselby]

The train service has slightly improved while the bus service has deteriorated in frequency.

The bus service through Gargrave has been pretty much the same for at least 20 years – hourly service during the week, 2-hourly service on Saturdays – there was a brief period after Pennine Motors folded when the council were running a skeleton service using minibuses, but that has long passed.

Compare it with Cononley just south of Skipton; it's a slightly smaller village but with a much better train service.

Cononley only gets a high-frequency service because it's easier for WYMetro to have the local trains to Skipton all call at all stations rather than have an uneven stopping pattern. That will have driven the increase in commuters, rather than the other way round.

 

[70014IronDuke]

For the sake of completeness, I should have written that the latest ORR entries-exits also reveal Bentham had 36,766 ees in 2023-24. This is just 350 up on the previous year's numbers, but makes it the third most used station on the S&C-Bowland system (not counting Carnforth, Lancaster, of course).

That's just over 100 pax on-off per day. I must admit I haven't been on the Bentham line since the last week of BR steam, so can't say I know it, but I'm surprised at the usage levels here. (Who is using Bentham? Locals to/from Lancaster in the main?)

Also noteworthy is the usage of Carnforth, which registered 175,000 ees in 23-24 (presumably the majority using the more frequent Barrow services) along with 16,500 interchanges. This means getting on for 10% of pax using the station change between Barrow and Bentham line trains. (It also includes a few getting off the morning Bradford - Carnforth train and continuing to Lancaster, I presume.)

Considering the impact of strike action in the year under review, plus the not infrequent cancelled services on the Bentham line (I think more than over the S&C), in general these usage figures do seem encouraging.

 

[urbophile]

The bus service through Gargrave has been pretty much the same for at least 20 years – hourly service during the week, 2-hourly service on Saturdays – there was a brief period after Pennine Motors folded when the council were running a skeleton service using minibuses, but that has long passed.

Yes: I shouldn't have said 'frequency' - as you say that is and always has been more or less once an hour. But I'm remembering 60 or more years ago (yes ancient history I know, the heyday of the orange Pennine Motors) when the basic one an hour was supplemented by occasional buses to Malham and extra services in peak hours; also the last bus in the evenings was as I recall 22.15 from Skipton: not late, but better than now when they finish I believe around 19.00. Of course increasing car ownership has done for that, and Gargrave has survived much better for both rail and bus transport than many other comparable communities.

 

[30907]

Cononley only gets a high-frequency service because it's easier for WYMetro to have the local trains to Skipton all call at all stations rather than have an uneven stopping pattern. That will have driven the increase in commuters, rather than the other way round.

As a resident of Cononley in the 1990s, the reopening of the station was the starting point, coupled with the relocation of public service jobs to Leeds - the 40min commute from Cononley was trivial by NSE standards, and as to the house prices... . And the station was walkable from anywhere in the village, even before the latest housing developments.
(As a result the 666 bus ceased to serve Cononley, leaving it with virtually no buses but plenty of trains.)

Gargrave is also served by (near enough) all trains, but there are fewer of them

 

[D6130]

(As a result the 666 bus ceased to serve Cononley, leaving it with virtually no buses but plenty of trains.)

The level crossing barriers were down for such a large proportion of each hour - especially after the inauguration of the Settle & Carlisle coal trains from Hunterston and Killoch to the Aire Valley and Trent Valley power stations - that it became impossible to operate a punctual and reliable bus service through the village.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Having grown up in Cononley I can confirm that the level crossing is a popular theme of complaint for the whole village!

 

[yorksrob]

Quitetaken aback

For the sake of completeness, I should have written that the latest ORR entries-exits also reveal Bentham had 36,766 ees in 2023-24. This is just 350 up on the previous year's numbers, but makes it the third most used station on the S&C-Bowland system (not counting Carnforth, Lancaster, of course).

That's just over 100 pax on-off per day. I must admit I haven't been on the Bentham line since the last week of BR steam, so can't say I know it, but I'm surprised at the usage levels here. (Who is using Bentham? Locals to/from Lancaster in the main?)

Also noteworthy is the usage of Carnforth, which registered 175,000 ees in 23-24 (presumably the majority using the more frequent Barrow services) along with 16,500 interchanges. This means getting on for 10% of pax using the station change between Barrow and Bentham line trains. (It also includes a few getting off the morning Bradford - Carnforth train and continuing to Lancaster, I presume.)

Considering the impact of strike action in the year under review, plus the not infrequent cancelled services on the Bentham line (I think more than over the S&C), in general these usage figures do seem encouraging.

Very busy today. Think Bradford were playing somewhere out west.

 

[xotGD]

Quitetaken aback

Very busy today. Think Bradford were playing somewhere out west.

They lost away to Morecambe. But at least the fans had a convenient rail journey to/from the game.


Thinking more generally, once Northern get hold of some battery-EMU hybrids, the possibility of extending some Airedale stoppers to/from Settle* becomes an option, giving the stations beyond Skipton a more frequent service to Leeds, and maybe even direct services to Bradford.

*May have to run to Ribblehead in order to reverse.

 

[D6130]

*May have to run to Ribblehead in order to reverse.

That's correct with the present infrastructure. In fact they would have to go even further....across the viaduct to Blea Moor and back.

 

[30907]

Having grown up in Cononley I can confirm that the level crossing is a popular theme of complaint for the whole village!

It was even worse before resignalling when down stoppers were held in the platform awaiting "line clear" from Skipton

 

[Class 317]

For me restoring stops on the mid afternoon Carlisle to Leeds service which goes semi fast would make the service much more useful from intermediate stations for both locals, walkers, cyclists etc.

Also additional Saturday services on both Dalesrail and a morning/evening return extended to Nottingham would be very well used by ramblers etc.

 

[D6130]

It was even worse before resignalling when down stoppers were held in the platform awaiting "line clear" from Skipton

Yes....but in those days the section signal was mounted at the end of the platform next to the 'new' box and - once a down stopper had come to a stand in the platform - the signaller was permitted to close the gates across the railway again for the passage of road traffic provided, obviously, that there was no up train approaching. This used to happen quite frequently on weekday afternoons and Sundays, when Skipton South box was switched-out. (Sorry....veering off-topic a bit now!)

 

[Ken H]

I wonder how hard it would be to put in signalling to allow trains to run wrong line from Settle Jct to Settle. Then they could extend some electrics with batteries from Skipton. Or divert some bentham line trains to make a settle stop before returnung to their current route. Need a signalling guy to comment on feasability...

 

[anothertyke]

For me restoring stops on the mid afternoon Carlisle to Leeds service which goes semi fast would make the service much more useful from intermediate stations for both locals, walkers, cyclists etc.

I agree with that.Particularly in the winter with short hours of daylight, putting the Horton stop in would be good.

Re fares, going back to the old days when a return to Horton was valid to return from Clapham and similarly Ribblehead/Bentham would be good.

Cancellations are always a worry with long interval services.

If day trips from Leeds and Bradford to the Lake District could be made a bit easier, that would be good. But I do realise that the timetable at Preston and Lancaster cannot revolve around niche markets. I wonder whether putting the main line platforms back at Carnforth will ever happen.

 

[deltic08]

I wonder how hard it would be to put in signalling to allow trains to run wrong line from Settle Jct to Settle. Then they could extend some electrics with batteries from Skipton. Or divert some bentham line trains to make a settle stop before returnung to their current route. Need a signalling guy to comment on feasability...

It would have to be wrong line working from Settle to Settle Jnc as the crossover at the junction is trailing. Also a signal would be needed for this move at Settle and a junction signal at Settle Jnc.

 

[daodao]

Or divert some bentham line trains to make a settle stop before returnung to their current route.

That seems a bizarre suggestion as there is already a station at Giggleswick, close to Settle, on the "Little" North Western line. It would also be complex from an operational perspective, would delay significantly through journeys from the West Riding to Carnforth/Lancaster and beyond, and would not be justified by the limited amount of traffic that Settle (population 2,714 in the 2021 census) could generate.

 

[30907]

That seems a bizarre suggestion as there is already a station at Giggleswick, close to Settle, on the "Little" North Western line. It would also be complex from an operational perspective, would delay significantly through journeys from the West Riding to Carnforth/Lancaster and beyond, and would not be justified by the limited amount of traffic that Settle (population 2,714 in the 2021 census) could generate.

Indeed, though Giggleswick is a little inhospitable. A dedicated taxi-on-demand service would probably be cheaper, though I suspect even that would be a generous provision.

I'm also not convinced that extending Airedale (battery)electrics from Skipton would be terribly practical, given the 10-min difference in journey time compared with the existing through services.

 

[xotGD]

given the 10-min difference in journey time compared with the existing through services

Still a lot quicker than having to fester an hour for the next train!

 

[Bevan Price]

An example northbound morning path, which appears to be (just about!) free of conflicts, would be as follows:-

• Take the current ECS path from Leeds at 0621, calling at Shipley en route to Skipton
• Arrive at Skipton at 0650, depart at 0652
• Run nonstop to Carlisle, arriving at 0828
• Depart Carlisle at 0830
• Arrive Glasgow Central at 0951

Why would you omit Keighley - probably the largest town between Leeds & Carlisle ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Why would you omit Keighley - probably the largest town between Leeds & Carlisle ?

Only because this example is very tight on timings and Shipley gives better access for anyone coming from Bradford.

 

[70014IronDuke]

For me restoring stops on the mid afternoon Carlisle to Leeds service which goes semi fast would make the service much more useful from intermediate stations for both locals, walkers, cyclists etc.

Restoring? Isn't this the successor to 1 tpd Leeds - Glasgow service, ie one that was Class 1 'express' stopping only at Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby?
It's already had two more stops added (Garsdale and Ribblehead, I think) for coach operators.
Of course, it might be that nobody notices the slightly faster schedule between Carlisle and Skipton. Perhaps @InkyScrolls can comment if this trains see any sort of extra through passengers from Glasgow?

Also additional Saturday services on both Dalesrail and a morning/evening return extended to Nottingham would be very well used by ramblers etc.

Indeed, but the Northern planners seem to think bother, probably due to the reversal at Leeds, is too much trouble for the extra passenger convenience most days of the week, ie Sundays excepted.
There is an unadvertised early morning service from Sheffield that waits in Leeds and forms the 07.48 Leeds-Carlisle.

Incidentally, how are the Rochdale - Ribblehead services loading on the wickedly wild winter runs?