Penalty 128 pounds for what?

[Hadders]

Overtravelled means continuing beyone the destination on your ticket.

You did not do this because Staines to Earlsfield is valid via Clapham Junction.

 

[kubaskubas]

Overtravelled means continuing beyone the destination on your ticket.

You did not do this because Staines to Earlsfield is valid via Clapham Junction.

Ok, i choose in swr apk on phone ticket about 17.08 but i entry to train about 16 28, this ticket is anytime and i have full right to enter to train faster yes?

 

[Hadders]

As long as the ticket was purchased before you boarded at Staines then you can travel on any train that is on a permitted route between the origin and destination on your ticket.

Clapham Junction is on a permitted route between Staines and Earlsfield.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes and where i have to send this letter? I sended email and no one answer in one month, i dont have time on waiting, maybe i can call to this number on letter? If not i can go to the court and i will be want to give me my money back for the time I lost plus compensation for the stress and the day off at work

Do not try to phone them to sort this out as that rarely works. My view is this sort of thing needs to be dealt with in writing probably by hard copy post. It probably needs to be sent to SWR prosecutions department and sent by tracked post from a post office.

I suspect English may not be your first language so if you post your draft here people can help get the wording correct regarding the technical railway ticket rules.

Does anyone have the SWR postal address to use or is it on any uploaded docs?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does anyone have the SWR postal address to use or is it on any uploaded docs?

Believe it's...

Prosecutions Department,
First MTR South Western Trains Limited,
Freepost SWR PROSECUTIONS DEPARTMENT.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[RJ]

In this specific case I would just take no action on any of these letters and go about my everyday life until the court date, then go and take someone who can concisely explain that Staines to Earlsfield is valid via Clapham Junction. I’d invite the local and railway media as well.

This is assuming as stated the journey started after 1615.

 

[cool110]

I would reply to call Jack to give oral evidence, just to waste time and get that idiot of an RPI away from the gateline and trains.

 

[Kilopylae]

This has to be the worst we've seen - Clapham Jn staff have surpassed themselves.

In this specific case I would just take no action on any of these letters and go about my everyday life until the court date, then go and take someone who can concisely explain that Staines to Earlsfield is valid via Clapham Junction. I’d invite the local and railway media as well.

This is assuming as stated the journey started after 1615.

I would reply to call Jack to give oral evidence, just to waste time and get that idiot of an RPI away from the gateline and trains.

As much as one can see the temptation, probably the OP would rather just get this out of the way (and potentially get some kind of compensation), and the best way to achieve that is likely to be through sending a hard copy letter.

 

[RJ]

This has to be the worst we've seen - Clapham Jn staff have surpassed themselves.



As much as one can see the temptation, probably the OP would rather just get this out of the way (and potentially get some kind of compensation), and the best way to achieve that is likely to be through sending a hard copy letter.

I predict it will be dismissed by SWR as the passenger taking a convoluted routing that their staff couldn’t be expected to know was valid and it’ll be brushed under the carpet. What else can they do really, it’s not really the done thing to admit a staff member may have made a mistake.

I’ve read through the correspondence and it looks like Susan Gray and her team could benefit from consulting a route map to establish where Staines is in relation to Earlsfield. How have they reached a conclusion that the OP overtravelled? The journey planners send passengers via Clapham Junction without any manipulation so it’s not exactly an unreasonable route. It would be absurd to only allow travel via Weybridge - the RDG clearly haven’t done this.

The OP should stop worrying and let SWR take this case to court, then perhaps the RDG who look after the CoT can help out with training on break of journey rights.

 

[Haywain]

The OP should stop worrying and let SWR take this case to court, then perhaps the RDG can help SWR out with training on break of journey rights.

Which will require the OP to give up their own time to attend the court to state their defence with the risk that the court doesn't understand and finds the OP guilty. Not such a good idea, I think.

 

[kubaskubas]

ok can someone tell me if I can ask for an interpreter (I am Polish) and what do I have to do with this letter from the court, do I have to give them my financial situation? I also want to send a letter or call this Susan and explain the situation, I am stressed about all this because I do not want to pay anything, if I lose what is the average cost of criminal proceedings? the most important thing for me is to have an interpreter, can the court give me one for free? I know English but advanced phrases are difficult for me, I will gladly go to court and present my version if I cannot reach an agreement with Susan

 

[signed]

ok can someone tell me if I can ask for an interpreter

Get an interpreter at a court or tribunal

Ask for an interpreter at a court or tribunal hearing - who's eligible, how to apply, when friends or family can act as interpreters

www.gov.uk

Yes, the court will provide you a interpreter if you ask

Criminal courts​

You’ll be given an interpreter if you’re the defendant. You can contact the court where your case will be heard to check if an interpreter has been arranged.

if I lose what is the average cost of criminal proceedings?

- A fine based on your income (usually discounted for a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportubity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided on the day you were caught
- Contribution towards EMR's court costs

(it's the same general formula, replace EMR by SWR)

do I have to give them my financial situation?

Yes, the fine would be given appropriate to your financial situation

 

[Hadders]

Do not call SWR.

Write a letter to them but post a draft of what you’re proposing to send to them in this thread and we will help you to get the wording right so you have the best chance of getting the case withdrawn.

 

[John Palmer]

Two points on which little may turn (until it does!):

(1) The Summons states that the case will be heard at a court located on Alexandra Road SW19. Meanwhile the Notice of Proof by Writen statement states that the case will be heard at a court located at 1 London Road, Bromley. I recommend reliance upon what the summons says, but there is obvious scope for a problem here.

(2) The ticket image uploaded by the OP bears reference AOE853D2RSX. The witness statement of Jack Gillies refers to Exhibit J.G.1, which is said to be a ticket bearing reference AOE853D2RSXO, This single character discrepancy is probably nothing more than a minor error on the witness' part, but the point should nonetheless be checked. Is the uploaded ticket image an image of the Exhibit marked J.G.1 or is it of a ticket retained by the OP?

 

[RJ]

Which eill require the OP to give up their own time to attend the court to state their defence with the risk that the court doesn't understand and finds the OP guilty. Not such a good idea, I think.

If it was me in that position I would follow that course of action and probably invite the RDG and SWR’s retail management to watch the case.

I’ve looked on National Rail Enquiries and it doesn’t even produce a price for the journey plans that go via Weybridge. Even though this is quicker than going via Kingston, it isn’t valid.

The route via Kingston doesn’t show on the journey planners this time of day unless forced by use of via or avoid inputs, because of how long it takes.

The route via Richmond and Clapham Junction is the fastest and what the journey planners show by default. It’s even the route the OP was told to take by the ticket retailer they used.

I think with an interpreter and a representative who can offer a not-too-complicated explanation, the case will be thrown out. I would guess some kind of “zonal” argument is what is driving SWR’s stance here but that’s not how permitted routes work with point to point tickets.

 

[some bloke]

Did you show them the itinerary via CLJ?

Are you going to send a copy?

take someone who can concisely explain that Staines to Earlsfield is valid via Clapham Junction.

I think with...a representative who can offer a not-too-complicated explanation, the case will be thrown out.

Or maybe the screenshot of the itinerary, and a smartphone to show the magistrates what National Rail Enquiries shows?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

It might be interesting to see what the company reply when you send the screenshot and a link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

......................

If the "certificate of service" was in the same package as the summons, how was the Prosecutions and Fraud Manager making a true statement when she "certified" that "I served" the defendant with the summons - before she had in fact sent it?

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020:consolidate the Criminal Procedure Rules 2015, S.I. 2015/1490, with the amendments made by S.I. 2016/120, 2016/705, 2017/144, 2017/282, 2017/755, 2017/915, 2018/132, 2018/847, 2019/143, 2019/1119 and 2020/32; andinclude the further amendments listed beneath.

www.legislation.gov.uk

"the private prosecutor, who must send or deliver the summons to the defendant (in one of the ways set out in Rule 4 of the Criminal Procedure Rules), then prepare a certificate confirming when and how they sent or delivered it"

Private Prosecutions

www.gov.uk

 

[cool110]

If the "certificate of service" was in the same package as the summons, how was the Prosecutions and Fraud Manager making a true statement when she "certified" that "I served" the defendant with the summons - before she had in fact sent it?
"the private prosecutor, who must send or deliver the summons to the defendant (in one of the ways set out in Rule 4 of the Criminal Procedure Rules), then prepare a certificate confirming when and how they sent or delivered it"

That's exactly how it's supposed to be done, the signing taking place immediately before being posted. Police and CPS charges are done in exactly the same way.

 

[CyrusWuff]

(2) The ticket image uploaded by the OP bears reference AOE853D2RSX. The witness statement of Jack Gillies refers to Exhibit J.G.1, which is said to be a ticket bearing reference AOE853D2RSXO, This single character discrepancy is probably nothing more than a minor error on the witness' part, but the point should nonetheless be checked. Is the uploaded ticket image an image of the Exhibit marked J.G.1 or is it of a ticket retained by the OP?

I believe the TTK (The Ticket Keeper) app which SWR use pads the ticket number out with trailing zeroes when displaying the result of a scan, so it's probably copied straight from there rather than from the actual ticket.

 

[some bloke]

That's exactly how it's supposed to be done

In whìch sense is it "supposed", and according to which authority?

The rule linked above,

"The person who serves a document may prove that by signing a certificate explaining how and when it was served"

seems to me naturally read the same as the quotation from the government page.

If usual practice is what was done here (if this "certificate" was sent with the summons), isn't it different from what the rules and government say?

In any case, the question was,

If the "certificate of service" was in the same package as the summons, how was the Prosecutions and Fraud Manager making a true statement

 

[kubaskubas]

Hi someone can tell me where i have send my letter( any adress or something) i will write it todag and i pit it here maybe someone help me to fill something there, thanks guys for help everyone here big respect

 

[some bloke]

As for content, this seems useful:

 

[kubaskubas]

As for content, this seems useful:

What u mean bro?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

Ok this will be my letter with all evidence

Hello, on 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield, I bought an Anytime Days Single ticket at 16:15, I boarded the train at 16:28, I got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52 and left the station, I simply interrupted my journey and went to Earlsfield by bus from Clapham, Jack Gillies SWR employee checked me outside the gates which opened without any problem, after some time I got a letter that I have to pay a fine of 120 pounds if I do not do it within 3 weeks a court case will be opened, I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution explaining what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket, no one replied to me and after some time I got a letter that we will have a court case, I am sending you all the evidence and papers that I did not continue my journey on an invalid ticket for what you suspect me, and I have not broken your law, this is all some kind of oversight on your part and suggests withdrawal from the criminal proceedings,
Regards

 

[tspaul26]

In whìch sense is it "supposed", and according to which authority?

The rule linked above,

"The person who serves a document may prove that by signing a certificate explaining how and when it was served"

seems to me naturally read the same as the quotation from the government page.

If usual practice is what was done here (if this "certificate" was sent with the summons), isn't it different from what the rules and government say?

In any case, the question was,

The certificate is defective for other reasons, but nothing turns on this.

 

[signed]

What u mean bro?

From contract law, if you are sold a ticket with an itinerary from a NR-accreditated retailer, you are entitled to travel on it, even if it is invalid from a railway view.

However, since you didn't take the exact trains on the ticket, it becomes a bit murky, but it's still a good thing to show

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hi someone can tell me where i have send my letter( any adress or something) i will write it todag and i pit it here maybe someone help me to fill something there, thanks guys for help everyone here big respect

See post #35 (assuming here that you're writing to SWR).

 

[WesternLancer]

What u mean bro?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

Ok this will be my letter with all evidence

Hello, on 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield, I bought an Anytime Days Single ticket at 16:15, I boarded the train at 16:28, I got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52 and left the station, I simply interrupted my journey and went to Earlsfield by bus from Clapham, Jack Gillies SWR employee checked me outside the gates which opened without any problem, after some time I got a letter that I have to pay a fine of 120 pounds if I do not do it within 3 weeks a court case will be opened, I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution explaining what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket, no one replied to me and after some time I got a letter that we will have a court case, I am sending you all the evidence and papers that I did not continue my journey on an invalid ticket for what you suspect me, and I have not broken your law, this is all some kind of oversight on your part and suggests withdrawal from the criminal proceedings,
Regards

do not send this draft in its present form

 

[kubaskubas]

do not send this draft in its present form

Why? How i can write it?

See post #35 (assuming here that you're writing to SWR).

I cant find it can you send me link?

 

[Merseysider]

Why? How i can write it?

I cant find it can you send me link?

Here it is

Believe it's...

Prosecutions Department,
First MTR South Western Trains Limited,
Freepost SWR PROSECUTIONS DEPARTMENT.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[WesternLancer]

Why? How i can write it?

Yes I will suggest some edits shortly

Edit - I see @MotCO has suggested something on the lines I was going to also draft - I have tweaked that in my post below #62

 

[MotCO]

What u mean bro?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

Ok this will be my letter with all evidence

Hello, on 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield, I bought an Anytime Days Single ticket at 16:15, I boarded the train at 16:28, I got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52 and left the station, I simply interrupted my journey and went to Earlsfield by bus from Clapham, Jack Gillies SWR employee checked me outside the gates which opened without any problem, after some time I got a letter that I have to pay a fine of 120 pounds if I do not do it within 3 weeks a court case will be opened, I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution explaining what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket, no one replied to me and after some time I got a letter that we will have a court case, I am sending you all the evidence and papers that I did not continue my journey on an invalid ticket for what you suspect me, and I have not broken your law, this is all some kind of oversight on your part and suggests withdrawal from the criminal proceedings,
Regards

May I suggest a few edits?

Dear Sirs,

Ref no.xxxxxxxxx

On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a fine of £120, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution asking what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court. I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.

Regards

I did not mention leaving the station to catch a bus since I think it may confuse things. (I'm a bit concerned about whether you can finish short on that ticket, but think it is ok. "Finish short" means finishing your journey before the destination on your ticket.)

Can you also confirm that I have got the bit right about being stopped / challenged by Jack Gillies. Did he stop you after you went through the ticket barrier but before you left the station? Did he say your ticket was ok?

Good luck.