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Penalty 128 pounds for what?

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kubaskubas

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unless he googles himself and ends up on this thread!
I shouldn't have a problem because I wrote his name and surname here? He's a public employee so it's probably ok?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

not that I'm demanding anything, but at least they could have said stupid sorry
 

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John R

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No apology for the stress and inconvenience the OP has been put through. Absolutely disgraceful.
 

furlong

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Yes, the response in a matter like this should already have contained an apology and explanation that action would be taken to avoid something like it happening again.

That letter is itself worthy of a complaint, separate from the other matters already discussed.

What makes it particularly serious is that what should have been an obvious mistake got through multiple levels of review even after the problem was pointed out.
I note particularly your first message asked: "is it better to pay the fine and get it over with? "

You should be seeking a small financial settlement as a demonstration that they understand the seriousness of their multiple failings in the matter.
 

kubaskubas

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Yes, the response in a matter like this should already have contained an apology and explanation that action would be taken to avoid something like it happening again.

That letter is itself worthy of a complaint, separate from the other matters already discussed.

What makes it particularly serious is that what should have been an obvious mistake got through multiple levels of review even after the problem was pointed out.
I note particularly your first message asked: "is it better to pay the fine and get it over with? "

You should be seeking a small financial settlement as a demonstration that they understand the seriousness of their multiple failings in the matter.
how can I get this financial settlement? write them a letter/email? how much could I possibly ask for from them? I am a very nervous person and it was quite stressful for me
 

WesternLancer

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how can I get this financial settlement? write them a letter/email? how much could I possibly ask for from them? I am a very nervous person and it was quite stressful for me
You would have to pursue it via their complaints procedure and escalate it to the rail ombudsman if that didn’t work.

But you will have to be persistent to get anywhere.

I doubt you would get much. Maybe £20 voucher or something like that perhaps. I don’t know for sure.

There’s no automatic right to any such payment as far as I know.
 

AlterEgo

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I would personally just let this one lie. There is no point trying to create more stress for yourself.
 

furlong

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You could try yourself or seek the help of solicitors - there might be (weak) grounds to allege malicious prosecution to add leverage to negotiations.
I think the key element there would be the invention of the false conclusion "and had therefore overtravelled" in the statement of facts upon which the false case was based.
You'll note the witness statement itself concerns itself only with facts that are accurate pointing culpability at the back office.

Another avenue would be to see if any of the key people involved belong to professional bodies to which a complaint can be made.
 

WesternLancer

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You could try yourself or seek the help of solicitors - there might be (weak) grounds to allege malicious prosecution to add leverage to negotiations.
I think the key element there would be the invention of the false conclusion "and had therefore overtravelled" in the statement of facts upon which the false case was based.
You'll note the witness statement itself concerns itself only with facts that are accurate pointing culpability at the back office.

Another avenue would be to see if any of the key people involved belong to professional bodies to which a complaint can be made.
Is this the sort of thing a solicitor would do under a no win no fee basis? Otherwise how much is it likely to cost to seek help of a solicitor?
 

furlong

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For example from https://hnksolicitors.com/news/malicious-prosecution-compensation-claims/
The prosecutor may neglect to conduct a proper and thorough investigation, or indeed to suppress or alter the findings of such an investigation in order to further their own cause.
Their own cause might be the original letter asking for you to pay them £128 to make the problem go away - an offer that your message here shows that you seriously contemplated accepting.
 

185

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Good to see the adults at SWR intervened when this started flying about. A good result.

But I'd agree with the above - whilst they've backed down, it doesn't excuse
i) their RPI producing a TIR in error and
ii) their Prosecutor Ms Gray, who should know better proceeding with it.

As an apology, FG / SWR should offer the passenger a minimum of the amount they wrongly tried to financially benefit from, perhaps £300-500.
 

Hadders

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Thankfully common sense has prevailed and the case withdrawn.

That's a very poor reply from SWR. Let's be completely clear, SWR didn't constantly review anything. SWR only reviewed the case because of what @kubaskubas wrote to them on the advice of this forum. Had this letter not have been sent I strongly suspect that had the matter have ended up in court it would have resulted in a (wrongful) conviction.

I don't blame the member of staff at the gateline. Yes, they got it wrong and their customer service skills should've been better but the real fault is with SWR Prosecutions Department. Who reviews the reports that are sent in? It should've been obvious to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of railway ticketing matters that the ticket was valid.

I would consider getting your MP and/or London Travelwatch involved. Railway prosecutions are a hot topic at the moment following the wrongful conviction of 75,000 for similar types of issues to what we have seen in this case. You'd think train companies would learn but it appears not....
 

kubaskubas

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I'm not a nosy person, I'll rather leave it as it is, it's a waste of my time, I'm happy it ended this way and thank you again for your help, and even if I had to file it, should I do it through this link?

 

WesternLancer

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I'm not a nosy person, I'll rather leave it as it is, it's a waste of my time, I'm happy it ended this way and thank you again for your help, and even if I had to file it, should I do it through this link?

Only if you want to engage that firm of solicitors. But you say that you want to leave it.

And if you read that link I doubt you would conclude that you have been maliciously prosecuted.
 

island

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Malicious prosecution requires malice – clue's in the name. What's been demonstrated here is incompetence.
 

43096

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You should be seeking a small financial settlement as a demonstration that they understand the seriousness of their multiple failings in the matter.
I would be very tempted to respond in the way the railway does and ask for £150 to cover the time and administrative expense of investigating the matter, along with an apology.
 

WesternLancer

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everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes
Which I suspect is at the heart of the difference between a mistake and something that is malicious.

But I am unsure what your point is.

In any case my advice was to complain to London travel watch.
 

some bloke

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The letter seems to mislead that it was a policy of "constant review" rather than your email or them seeing this thread, or realising they'd made an error, which made them decide.

They can't "withdraw" the case - they have to ask the court.

If I understand correctly, the Criminal Procedure Rules require them to make clear what will be done by who.

I had a ticket with a change at Clapham Junction, I had to go to the shop and I got off there, the gate opened without a problem and I got out, then they wanted me to show them my ticket, so I showed them and they told me that I would have an investigation
If you think it's appropriate, you could say something like,

"The company breached the contract by refusing to accept that my ticket was valid for onward travel from Clapham Junction.

If a passenger makes a mistake that their ticket is valid when it isn't, they are automatically guilty of a criminal offence.

So I think it is reasonable for me to expect proper explanations why:

a) inspection of a ticket which actually showed a route via Clapham Junction resulted in a report for prosecution,

and

b) why I was prosecuted instead of the company taking account of my email [or emails]."
 

WesternLancer

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The letter seems to mislead that it was a policy of "constant review" rather than your email or them seeing this thread, or realising they'd made an error, which made them decide.

They can't "withdraw" the case - they have to ask the court.

If I understand correctly, the Criminal Procedure Rules require them to make clear what will be done by who.


If you think it's appropriate, you could say something like,

"The company breached the contract by refusing to accept that my ticket was valid for onward travel from Clapham Junction.

If a passenger makes a mistake that their ticket is valid when it isn't, they are automatically guilty of a criminal offence.

So I think it is reasonable for me to expect proper explanations why:

a) inspection of a ticket which actually showed a route via Clapham Junction resulted in a report for prosecution,

and

b) why I was prosecuted instead of the company taking account of my email [or emails]."
Ref b. I don’t think the op was prosecuted was he?
 

Watershed

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Personally speaking I would be considering a claim against SWR for potential breach of the GDPR. I cannot see how there was any lawful basis to collect, let alone use, the OP's personal details for this prosecution. I also cannot see that the exemption relating to the detection and prevention and crime would apply, for the reasons set out below.

At the absolute latest, such processing should have ceased when the OP sent their first letter setting out why they had a valid ticket.

The Railway Byelaws only allow staff to require passengers' name & address where there is "reasonable" belief of a breach of the Byelaws. I cannot see how any person could reasonably have believed the OP's ticket to be invalid in the circumstances. RoRA and other similar laws require there to be an actual offence (or actual failure to produce a valid ticket) for there to be a power to require the passenger's details, which did not arise here.

The GDPR explicitly provides for non-material damages, e.g. for distress. Clearly, being threatened with a wrongful prosecution is likely to cause most people quite a lot of distress.

It would be difficult to say exactly how much could be claimed, but I would suggest a medium to high three-figure sum is not an unreasonable starting point.

Of course the OP may, again, want to appoint a solicitor to pursue any GDPR claim.
 

some bloke

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I sended email and no one answer in one month
got a letter that I have to pay a fine of 120 pounds if I do not do it within 3 weeks a court case will be opened, I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution explaining what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket, no one replied to me and after some time I got a letter that we will have a court case

@kubaskubas , would you mind posting on here your earlier email to SWR and clarifying the proof you included?

It might be of use for understanding what happened.

That may help with an overall picture of how companies are acting, even if you take no action.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

..................

I think it's good not to focus too much on a mistake by a young guy at the station (though I still wonder how the route on the ticket wasn't a big clue).

..................

An easy thing could be to ask the prosecutor,

"Please disclose any and all evidence you have tending to support the defence".

The case is still live until the court agrees it can be withdrawn.

And according to the state prosecutors, you are entitled to argue that you should be found not guilty by the court. Even if you don't actually want to do that, it seems they still have to give you the evidence.

"Offences can be withdrawn by the prosecutor in the magistrates' court (only) at any time before adjudication by the court. ...

Leave to withdraw is required. The court has complete discretion whether to grant leave. The prosecuting advocate will need to give sufficient reasons to satisfy the court that the application is a proper one. The defendant is entitled to make representations as to whether they should be entitled to an acquittal."

 
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MotCO

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I'm not a nosy person, I'll rather leave it as it is, it's a waste of my time, I'm happy it ended this way and thank you again for your help, and even if I had to file it, should I do it through this link?

I can understand the OP's reluctance to take this any further. His Court case has (or will) be cancelled and the arguments put forward by Forum members are quite wide ranging and complex, particularly if English is not his first language.

As a suggestion, can we collectively draft an appropriate letter for the OP to send to the most appropriate organisation which most effectively 'penalises' SWR for their incompetence (whether it is malicious offence, GDPR etc), offers some recompense to the OP for distress caused, and avoids a repeat of the incident?
 

johnny_t

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I understand the desire to draw a line underneath all this and just get on with your life but, at the least, I would be tempted to e-mail them back acknowledging their letter and pointing them to this thread. It might give them a little cause for reflection as they probably exist within their own bubble and don't realise the impact that their 'mistakes' can have.
 

Bertie the bus

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I'm not a nosy person, I'll rather leave it as it is, it's a waste of my time, I'm happy it ended this way and thank you again for your help, and even if I had to file it, should I do it through this link?
You really shouldn’t just let this matter drop. Don’t let it take over your life but being prosecuted for changing trains at a station your ticket tells you to change trains at and then not even getting an apology isn’t on.

You asked for, and received, help from strangers on this forum. Consider a complaint to either SWR management or London TravelWatch, and hopefully a change in the prosecution process at SWR, as your way of giving something back so hopefully others won’t have to go through the same thing in the future.
 

WesternLancer

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As a suggestion, can we collectively draft an appropriate letter for the OP to send to the most appropriate organisation which most effectively 'penalises' SWR for their incompetence (whether it is malicious offence, GDPR etc), offers some recompense to the OP for distress caused, and avoids a repeat of the incident?
This is very helpful post and would help make a practical difference to the OP.
 

Haywain

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As a suggestion, can we collectively draft an appropriate letter for the OP to send to the most appropriate organisation
As a suggestion, can we respect the OP's wish to draw a line under the matter? This is what the OP said:
I'll rather leave it as it is, it's a waste of my time, I'm happy it ended this way and thank you again for your help,
Why can't it be left at that? The OP should not be being bullied into being a channel for other people's frustration.
 

Pushpit

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how can I get this financial settlement? write them a letter/email? how much could I possibly ask for from them? I am a very nervous person and it was quite stressful for me
Firstly I want to apologise to you, if no-one else will do so. What happened here was terrible, should never have happened, and when a mistake is made SWR should have the balls to say sorry profusely and to make it right. Poland is a critical ally of the UK, Polish people have contributed massively to the economy, and to even our country's very existence - it was Poles who solved the Enigma codes. You deserve far better than this, and I'm ashamed that this has happened to you.

What can you do? Well firstly I think you deserve a lot of credit for resolving this problem and for doing the right thing in terms of getting advice from this forum. But also I would never want anyone else to be treated as shabbily again. Here is something relatively easy to do.

1) Find out your MP, by name, according to the postcode of where you live

2) Write a brief letter to that MP explaining what happened to you, how you were nearly left with a criminal conviction quite unfairly, and how when SWR very late in the day realised their mistake it couldn't be bothered to apologise. Focus on the harm and distress this did to you, and that by referring to the Ralways Act they were effectively threatening you with imprisonment. You had done nothing wrong and SWR seems unaware of their own network structure. You clearly ask the MP to refer the matter to the Attorney General, the Right Honourable Lord Hermer KC (Richard Hermer) to ask whether SWR is a "fit, proper and competent organisation to be pursuing criminal prosecutions".

2a) If the MP is a Labour MP, and only if they are a Labour MP, remind the MP that their recent Manifesto pledged "a justice system that puts victims first".

3) Add a separate bullet point letter giving a one page outline of what happened to you. Finally add a copy of that final letter from SWR where they dropped the matter. Also mention that you are Polish and that you got advice from volunteer members of RailUKforums to eventually stop the prosecution. And stress the sheer incompetence and incivility of SWR's approach. Three sheets of paper in all.

4) Critically, at the top of the letter copy in the Interim Managing Director of SWR, Mr. Stuart Meek; also the General Counsel for First Group plc, Mr Christy Baker. Just as critically, while referring to that final letter from SWR in the first letter to the MP, do NOT copy that SWR letter to Meek or Baker - make them look it. Post the two (of the three) letters to them separately with Royal Mail tracking.

If you are minded to do this, we can give you help on the MP's letter and on the bullet points, 99% of it is in this thread already. I can give you the relevant addresses for the MP, along with Baker and Meek.

Now the strange thing is that I doubt the Attorney General (AG) will see this letter, but he does not need to see it. MPs vary in quality, Meek and Baker won't know that, but it is 99.9% certain they will react if they get a copy of your letter - they will get very little Parliamentary correspondence and my experience is that they will move very, very quickly when this letter crosses their desk, just in case the MP or AG does contact them for background. I know from experience that company directors - after a case known as Horizon - are urgently asking their General Counsel to clarify their responsibilities under the Companies Act legal framework, so I'm pretty sure your letter will have an impact.


5) Sit back and wait for the replies.

I repeat my apology to you for this event, and I will help with wording of 2) and 3), and the addresses in 4) if you choose to go down this route.
 

MotCO

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Is there any action the OP @kubaskubas needs to take to ensure the case is cancelled and not heard in Court? Just because he has received an email from SWR saying that they will cancel the proscution is not the same as the Court no longer listing the case.
 

Pushpit

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Is there any action the OP @kubaskubas needs to take to ensure the case is cancelled and not heard in Court? Just because he has received an email from SWR saying that they will cancel the proscution is not the same as the Court no longer listing the case.
Cheekily the OP could also ask the AG to confirm that the prosecution is stopped. More realistically it's probably worth a phone call to Bromley Magistrates to check.

020 8437 3585

[email protected]
 
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