December 2024 timetable change

[ScotGG]

I think it will happen as there now is so mamy green initiatives that can happen without it, more freight by rail out of Felixstowe, more passengers going to be pushed to rail once again as the government is looking to raise money in the budget so motorists will be hit.

Forgetting the fact Ipswich to Cambridge and Peterborough needs more frequent services, there will come a point Norwich to Cambridge will want half hourly especially when east west rail opens.

Norwich to Cambridge already needs 2 tph really and could easily fill both at times and that'll only increase as some stations in line for thousands of new homes. Attleborough to give one example is almost doubling in size with thousands of homes given outline approval south of the station.

Like much else in the UK it's taking an age to build but it will happen.

Start date revealed for work on 4,000 new homes which will double size of town

Work on a major 4,000-home development which would double the population of Attleborough is to begin next summer.

www.wymondhamandattleboroughmercury.co.uk

 

[Magdalia]

Norwich to Cambridge already needs 2 tph really and could easily fill both at times

No it doesn't. Norwich-Ely already has 2tph and Ely-Cambridge 4tph. What is needed are longer trains, better connections for Cambridge at Ely in and out of the EMR trains, and peak time trains running through to/from Stansted. The last of these will become very important once Cambridge South opens next year.

The railway has to break away from the default response that increased demand means running more short trains, which are an incredibly wasteful use of train paths, especially in the Ely area.

Attleborough to give one example is almost doubling in size with thousands of homes given outline approval south of the station.

Attleborough to Cambridge takes an hour, not many will be doing that commute.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

No it doesn't. Norwich-Ely already has 2tph and Ely-Cambridge 4tph. What is needed are longer trains, better connections for Cambridge at Ely in and out of the EMR trains, and peak time trains running through to/from Stansted. The last of these will become very important once Cambridge South opens next year.

The railway has to break away from the default response that increased demand means running more short trains, which are an incredibly wasteful use of train paths, especially in the Ely area.

Longer trains at Stansted Airport are infeasible due to the platform arrangement, and would require station modifications to realise.

Train frequencies also can't be increased, due to capacity constraints at Ely, as well as single track sections at the airport. Whilst the Cambridge curve is probably OK, the tunnel would need a second bore to increase services, which are already up to 6tph each way, which is likely the maximum capacity.

 

[dk1]

Increased frequencies on the Norwich-Cambridge route are already being investigated for future timetables.

Two trains per hour already operate in certain hours during GEML engineering blockades along with Footex extras when the canaries play at home.

XC are going back to hourly Cambridge to Stansted from May which will help the overcrowding on the Norwich trains over this section.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Increased frequencies on the Norwich-Cambridge route are already being investigated for future timetables.

Two trains per hour already operate in certain hours during GEML engineering blockades along with Footex extras when the canaries play at home.

XC are going back to hourly Cambridge to Stansted from May which will help the overcrowding on the Norwich trains over this section.

2tph Norwich Cambridge makes so much sense but very challenging given the current infrastructure constraints - longer trains also suffer infrastructure constraints too just in a different way.

One of the draw backs of the public ownership direction we're going in means there becomes no interest GA competing with XC for Stansted to Cambridge passengers

 

[dk1]

2tph Norwich Cambridge makes so much sense but very challenging given the current infrastructure constraints - longer trains also suffer infrastructure constraints too just in a different way.

One of the draw backs of the public ownership direction we're going in means there becomes no interest GA competing with XC for Stansted to Cambridge passengers

I don’t think there is any competition for passengers from what I witness on a daily basis. It’s just the need for 2tph south of Cambridge.

There are paths from Norwich available but across Ely they are mainly at weekends.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I don’t think there is any competition for passengers from what I witness on a daily basis. It’s just the need for 2tph south of Cambridge.

There are paths from Norwich available but across Ely they are mainly at weekends.

Well I'd much rather be on a 755 than an old, loud 170

 

[dk1]

Well I'd much rather be on a 755 than an old, loud 170

Agreed but most passengers don’t care either way.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Agreed but most passengers don’t care either way.

When my GA train from Cambridge to Norwich was cancelled I had to go on a 387 and a 158 and they were awful in comparison in pretty much every way

 

[dk1]

When my GA train from Cambridge to Norwich was cancelled I had to go on a 387 and a 158 and they were awful in comparison in pretty much every way

I’m not overly bothered. Just want the quickest train to get me there. Will be on a 158 from Norwich-Stockport Friday. I’m more bothered about when the trolley gets on.

 

[Class 170101]

No it doesn't. Norwich-Ely already has 2tph and Ely-Cambridge 4tph. What is needed are longer trains, better connections for Cambridge at Ely in and out of the EMR trains, and peak time trains running through to/from Stansted. The last of these will become very important once Cambridge South opens next year.

2tph will return as @dk1 says in Post 424 but one will be XCas it was pre-covid.

The railway has to break away from the default response that increased demand means running more short trains, which are an incredibly wasteful use of train paths, especially in the Ely area.

The problem is that none of the stations on the Route between Norwich and Ely can take more than four carriages. Additionally Platform 5 at Cambridge is also four carriages maximum and Platform 6 a 5 car Class 720 (or 2x Class 170s) maximum. It should also be pointed out that frequency trumps longer trains just ask Virgin Cross Country what happened when they ran two trains per hour between Bristol / Reading and Newcastle / Manchester instead of what went before in BR.

Attleborough to Cambridge takes an hour, not many will be doing that commute.

Nah thats just rubbish, Cambridge to Ely is an expensive corridor to live in, many would live further out just be able to afford a mortgage. Norfolk is cheaper. So unfortunately they have to travel in.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I’m not overly bothered. Just want the quickest train to get me there. Will be on a 158 from Norwich-Stockport Friday. I’m more bothered about when the trolley gets on.

Catering trolleys on trains are always overpriced. I'd much rather get a Greggs or something at the station like at Cambridge or Ipswich

 

[dk1]

Catering trolleys on trains are always overpriced. I'd much rather get a Greggs or something at the station like at Cambridge or Ipswich

It’s a personal choice I suppose. I always purchase something from the trolley.

 

[Magdalia]

The problem is that none of the stations on the Route between Norwich and Ely can take more than four carriages.

I'll believe that Norwich-Ely needs more trains when the EMR trains are all 4 cars.

Similarly for the XC Birmingham-Stansted trains regarding Ely-Stansted. It is bonkers that these don't stop at Cambridge North, and probably won't stop at Cambridge South, because they are too short and too full.

It should also be pointed out that frequency trumps longer trains j

Increased frequency isn't going to happen any time soon because of lack of train paths. The best should not be the enemy of the good. Longer trains and longer platforms can be delivered much more quickly and cheaply. Look at the Fen Line and Royston-Cambridge as examples.

 

[cle]

Until Ely is sorted (and even that sounds to be 1-2tph extra max, like hourly P'boro) - longer trains will be the solve for the Cambridge area services.

EMR should indeed all be 4 car.

Cambridge South I think will be hugely successful, and may see more incremental investment (a side p9 at Cambridge Central, North could be expanded too) - but it's difficult to add more services. West Anglia possibly - extending anything terminating at Bishops Stortford, for instance, or making Stansted 3tph - but that would ruin a very good timetable for there, Harlow, and BS.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Looks like the 2X hourly BDQ-ILK/SKI services haven't been restored.
Extra ECS reversing movement at HGT
Nothing extra on the York-Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill line (expected)
Saturday Rochdale-Ribblehead services retained
Last Hull-Beverley service leaves Hull 23:26 instead of 23:16
That's what I've found so far

That's a real shame about the 2nd service to BDQ. It is really important in making the service pattern on the Aire Valley to Skipton a relatively reliable "turn up and go" service.

The 20/10 interval between the resultant 4tph (plus the semi-fasts going up to Carlisle/Lancaster/Morecambe) made for a pretty useful service.

Now you can have really rather long gaps between trains if you arrive at the wrong time. Not to mention it makes accessing Bradford quite a lot harder!

At least the 2tph SKI - LDS will be 6 car 331s presumably rather than 4 cars as present!

 

[Goldfish62]

I've only had a quick skim so far, but SWR's quest to drive passengers away is continuing, with the withdrawal of the MF 2150 Waterloo - Bracknell, creating an hour's gap in service (this train was itself cut back from Reading 18 months ago).

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Until Ely is sorted (and even that sounds to be 1-2tph extra max, like hourly P'boro) - longer trains will be the solve for the Cambridge area services.

EMR should indeed all be 4 car.

Cambridge South I think will be hugely successful, and may see more incremental investment (a side p9 at Cambridge Central, North could be expanded too) - but it's difficult to add more services. West Anglia possibly - extending anything terminating at Bishops Stortford, for instance, or making Stansted 3tph - but that would ruin a very good timetable for there, Harlow, and BS.

It does make me wonder if Ely area improvement is going to deliver enough extra paths or if something more radical needs to be considered as it will immediately be full as soon as it's done.
What the radical idea is I don't know but if money is going to be spent then it should be answer rather than a temporary improvement to buy x number of years before more money is spent

 

[swr444]

I've only had a quick skim so far, but SWR's quest to drive passengers away is continuing, with the withdrawal of the MF 2150 Waterloo - Bracknell, creating an hour's gap in service (this train was itself cut back from Reading 18 months ago).

Surely this must be an error? Seems so weird to cut that service

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely this must be an error? Seems so weird to cut that service

I very much hope it's an error!

 

[JonathanH]

I very much hope it's an error!

The return working from Bracknell at 2302 to Staines is still shown, so presumably just not finalised the set up for the 2150 from Waterloo.

 

[Goldfish62]

The return working from Bracknell at 2302 to Staines is still shown, so presumably just not finalised the set up for the 2150 from Waterloo.

Yes! I've also just spotted that! Phew!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've only had a quick skim so far, but SWR's quest to drive passengers away is continuing, with the withdrawal of the MF 2150 Waterloo - Bracknell, creating an hour's gap in service (this train was itself cut back from Reading 18 months ago).

The timetable upload isn’t complete for December yet.

 

[xotGD]

That's a real shame about the 2nd service to BDQ. It is really important in making the service pattern on the Aire Valley to Skipton a relatively reliable "turn up and go" service.

The 20/10 interval between the resultant 4tph (plus the semi-fasts going up to Carlisle/Lancaster/Morecambe) made for a pretty useful service.

Now you can have really rather long gaps between trains if you arrive at the wrong time. Not to mention it makes accessing Bradford quite a lot harder!

At least the 2tph SKI - LDS will be 6 car 331s presumably rather than 4 cars as present!

Hopefully the strengthening to 6-car sets will result in more cheap advances being available.

 

[Goldfish62]

The timetable upload isn’t complete for December yet.

Thanks!

 

[moonarrow458]

For WMT there appears to be an earlier first service from Crewe to Birmingham on Sundays at 0923 calling at Stafford, Penkridge, Wolverhamton and Smethwick Galton Bridge. This is nearly 2 hours earlier than the current first Sunday WMT service from Crewe towards Birmingham. Particularly good for those living in Penkridge whose first Birmingham train will be at 0951 instead of the current 1145.

Another small change for London Overground, it would seem on Saturday nights only there will be a new later last service (converted from ECS) from Cheshunt to Liverpool Street at 2359 calling at all stations.

 

[Jamesrob637]

For WMT there appears to be an earlier first service from Crewe to Birmingham on Sundays at 0923 calling at Stafford, Penkridge, Wolverhamton and Smethwick Galton Bridge. This is nearly 2 hours earlier than the current first Sunday WMT service from Crewe towards Birmingham. Particularly good for those living in Penkridge whose first Birmingham train will be at 0951 instead of the current 1145.

Another small change for London Overground, it would seem on Saturday nights only there will be a new later last service (converted from ECS) from Cheshunt to Liverpool Street at 2359 calling at all stations.

Might be a cheap Manchester or Stockport to Birmingham alternative, as there is already a 08:06 Manchester to Crewe arriving 09:07. A pleasant connection time in Crewe.

 

[Kite159]

For WMT there appears to be an earlier first service from Crewe to Birmingham on Sundays at 0923 calling at Stafford, Penkridge, Wolverhamton and Smethwick Galton Bridge. This is nearly 2 hours earlier than the current first Sunday WMT service from Crewe towards Birmingham. Particularly good for those living in Penkridge whose first Birmingham train will be at 0951 instead of the current 1145.

Another small change for London Overground, it would seem on Saturday nights only there will be a new later last service (converted from ECS) from Cheshunt to Liverpool Street at 2359 calling at all stations.

That's good news, might take some of the loadings from the XC service between Stafford & Wolverhampton. A replacement from the previous first train on a Sunday when the Crewe - Stoke services went to Birmingham rather than just Stafford

 

[GoneSouth]

That's a real shame about the 2nd service to BDQ. It is really important in making the service pattern on the Aire Valley to Skipton a relatively reliable "turn up and go" service.

The 20/10 interval between the resultant 4tph (plus the semi-fasts going up to Carlisle/Lancaster/Morecambe) made for a pretty useful service.

Now you can have really rather long gaps between trains if you arrive at the wrong time. Not to mention it makes accessing Bradford quite a lot harder!

At least the 2tph SKI - LDS will be 6 car 331s presumably rather than 4 cars as present!

If there’s lots being run by 331s, what has happened to all the 333s?

When I was in Leeds there were enough 333s to run all the 2tph Leeds to Bradford, Leeds and Bradford to Ilkley, and Leeds and Bradford to Skipton. I think the fleet was bought for exactly that service pattern.

Have some been scrapped? Have the been moved? I used to like those trains… “Welcome aboard the Skipton Train”.

Weren’t they partly funded by WYPTE.

Sad that BDQ is being sidelined a little, a very busy place once upon a time.

I suspect it maybe due for a bit of a revival when the council discovers there’s a big chunk of land nearby to build a new bus station/interchange.

 

[D6130]

Have some been scrapped? Have the been moved?

Some of the 333s are being transferred to the Leeds-Doncaster service....about two-thirds of which is still in the territory of the former West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive. Others will continue to be used on the Bradford-Leeds/Ilkley/Skipton services. I'm not aware of any plans to scrap any of them in the near future.