December 2024 timetable change

[jammmmmsssssss]

Has there been any indication of an improved Sunday Norwich service from Cambridge in the future? Currently it's 1tph Stansted-Cambridge with 1tp2h extending to Norwich, similar to the XC Stansted service to Birmingham, and while going via Stowmarket is possible, the lack of e.g. a 9am departure to Norwich is surprising. Seems like this should be something on GA's priority list for the 2025 timetable change (unless this is another Ely North Junction blockade, in which case it's a dead end...).

It's currently and will still be 1tph Stansted - Norwich on Sunday. I think you're looking at this service https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G28293/2024-12-22/detailed
This terminates at Cambridge because it's operated by a 720

 

[Magdalia]

You can still see the relic of the proposed timetable in the timings of the late night services to Kings Lynn, at 2039, 2139, 2239, 2309 - the latter was 'supposed' to be at 2339.

I appreciate from previous iterations of this discussion that the problem was probably with NR rather than GTR, though I'm still not sure why Cambridge to Ely 'requires' a longer overnight closure than say Ely to Kings Lynn, or Cambridge to Royston. Perhaps if they ever used one of their weekend closures to properly fix the track between Waterbeach and Ely, which has been in a poor state for years, they wouldn't need such long daily closures.

I don't think that a 2039, 2139, 2239 sequence implies that the last train would be 2339.

The 2309 is already the last departure from both Cambridge and Ely, stations operated not by Great Northern but by Greater Anglia. The Kings Lynn driver currently reaches Kings Lynn at 0100 and still needs time to shut the train down and sign off. Running the 2309 at 2339 instead has significant implications that look to me to be deal breakers.

 

[MikeWM]

I don't think that a 2039, 2139, 2239 sequence implies that the last train would be 2339.

It doesn't necessarily follow, but in this case that was the plan. Here's a screenshot of the proposed 2018 M-F timetable from June 2017 (don't want to attach the whole pdf, it's a bit big). The Saturday one also had a 2342 with similar timings, and the consultation document on 'late night trains' also showed a planned 2342 to Kings Lynn on Mondays through Saturdays.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It doesn't necessarily follow, but in this case that was the plan. Here's a screenshot of the proposed 2018 M-F timetable from June 2017 (don't want to attach the whole pdf, it's a bit big). The Saturday one also had a 2342 with similar timings, and the consultation document on 'late night trains' also showed a planned 2342 to Kings Lynn on Mondays through Saturdays.

View attachment 164519

Very often concept / consultation timetables do not consider ‘niceties’ such as overnight engineering blocks for maintenance requirements etc.

 

[MikeWM]

Very often concept / consultation timetables do not consider ‘niceties’ such as overnight engineering blocks for maintenance requirements etc.

Which makes one wonder what the point is on consulting about it. Especially in this case, as there was a specific part of the consultation and a specific separate document for the trains they intended to run between 2300 and 0500, so you'd hope they may have checked that out first. Then again, we are talking about GTR, so...!

As it is, since 2017 the last train has been moved *back* from 2314 to 2309 - and 5 minutes may not sound a lot, but given when theatres and opera houses and cinemas end their evening performances, that can make a big difference between getting home from London and not doing so.

 

[A S Leib]

The only Avanti changes at Watford Junction I've found outside of some services being moved by a minute or two are:

• 12:38 from Edinburgh now starts from Birmingham, with the 06:52 Edinburgh to Euston running nonstop from Coventry
• 18:38 starts at Edinburgh instead of Birmingham
• 09:31 terminates at Birmingham, not through to Glasgow
• 12:31 terminates at Birmingham, not through to Edinburgh
• 20:28 to Manchester has been replaced by a 20:31 to Birmingham
• No 22:46 to Wolverhampton

 

[Peter0124]

The only Avanti changes at Watford Junction I've found outside of some services being moved by a minute or two are:

• 12:38 from Edinburgh now starts from Birmingham, with the 06:52 Edinburgh to Euston running nonstop from Coventry
• 18:38 starts at Edinburgh instead of Birmingham
• 09:31 terminates at Birmingham, not through to Glasgow
• 12:31 terminates at Birmingham, not through to Edinburgh
• 20:28 to Manchester has been replaced by a 20:31 to Birmingham
• No 22:46 to Wolverhampton

I think that late Wolves service is just missing from RTT by mistake. The unit diagram and corresponding ECS move at Wolverhampton is still showing.

 

[Boodiggy]

Aren't some 807s planned to appear from December?

Though yes, I think the power supply issues are supposed to mean the 805s will appear on Liverpool runs before 807s.

Will be interesting how they do it, given it's the missing services that are the 390 ones and the existing ones are 80x. You'd hope any services switched to 80x are in the same hour as a 390 additional, otherwise capacity could be a problem with just a 5-car 805 unit?

First 807 on West Mids mooted for mid September (Sun 15th I think) so keep an eye on that.
One is planned to travel from Darlington to Oxley on Monday (via Edinburgh) too.

 

[dk1]

Has there been any indication of an improved Sunday Norwich service from Cambridge in the future? Currently it's 1tph Stansted-Cambridge with 1tp2h extending to Norwich, similar to the XC Stansted service to Birmingham, and while going via Stowmarket is possible, the lack of e.g. a 9am departure to Norwich is surprising. Seems like this should be something on GA's priority list for the 2025 timetable change (unless this is another Ely North Junction blockade, in which case it's a dead end...).

Almost all the hourly Norwich-Cambridge trains run through to Stansted on Sundays. The only two 2hr gaps are from Cambridge in the morning and from Norwich late evening. During engineering blockades on the GEML there is often an additional Norwich-Cambridge service during the busiest hours. It isn’t going to get much more frequent than that.

 

[hexagon789]

First 807 on West Mids mooted for mid September (Sun 15th I think) so keep an eye on that.
One is planned to travel from Darlington to Oxley on Monday (via Edinburgh) too.

Thank you, so perhaps we might see a mix of 807/390 on Liverpool from December in the majority of hours where there is still only one AWC service, and possibly the odd 805 in those hours where a second service has been added - the 805 on the current paths on diesel beyond Weaver and the 390s on the extras...

 

[Northern158170]

It doesn't necessarily follow, but in this case that was the plan. Here's a screenshot of the proposed 2018 M-F timetable from June 2017 (don't want to attach the whole pdf, it's a bit big). The Saturday one also had a 2342 with similar timings, and the consultation document on 'late night trains' also showed a planned 2342 to Kings Lynn on Mondays through Saturdays.

View attachment 164519

Is there anywhere where I could find the proposed timetable? (Especially for Northern)

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Almost all the hourly Norwich-Cambridge trains run through to Stansted on Sundays. The only two 2hr gaps are from Cambridge in the morning and from Norwich late evening. During engineering blockades on the GEML there is often an additional Norwich-Cambridge service during the busiest hours. It isn’t going to get much more frequent than that.

Except maybe after they upgrade Ely North Junction

 

[dk1]

Except maybe after they upgrade Ely North Junction

That’s a possibility but sadly we are years away from that still. It never fails to amaze me why this hasn’t been done.

 

[800001]

First 807 on West Mids mooted for mid September (Sun 15th I think) so keep an eye on that.
One is planned to travel from Darlington to Oxley on Monday (via Edinburgh) too.

Merchant Park to Oxley, via Darlington. Most likely 807004.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

That’s a possibility but sadly we are years away from that still. It never fails to amaze me why this hasn’t been done.

Sadly true

 

[wls1]

There are no significant changes to the c2c timetable for December 2024

 

[MikeWM]

Is there anywhere where I could find the proposed timetable? (Especially for Northern)

It was only for GTR, related to the (ultimately rather disastrous for some months, though it settled down eventually) May 2018 recast.

--

That’s a possibility but sadly we are years away from that still. It never fails to amaze me why this hasn’t been done.

Probably because it gets more and more 'gold plated' every time it is suggested - the last iteration involved building a large road bridge in the middle of an SSSI amongst other crazy ideas. I can't see any government signing off on a £500m+ project which is basically, at its core, to redouble a couple of junctions involving probably a few hundred metres of track. By the next time it is considered no doubt even more stuff will have been attached to it and the pricetag will be closer to £1bn, and it won't get done again.

It is really quite depressing considering how much it is needed, for both passenger services and freight. I look forward to the day when we have a timetable thread celebrating the addition of a second hourly Cambridge-Norwich, or Cambridge-Birmingham, or even making the Ipswich-Peterborough hourly. I suspect I'm going to be waiting a long time though.

 

[83G/84D]

"https://midcornwallmetro.com/" - Is currently showing May 2025 for the hourly Newquay - Par service introduction and 2026 for extension to Truro / Falmouth.

Thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't see any government signing off on a £500m+ project which is basically, at its core, to redouble a couple of junctions involving probably a few hundred metres of track. By the next time it is considered no doubt even more stuff will have been attached to it and the pricetag will be closer to £1bn, and it won't get done again.

The project, at its core, is to provide more train paths, and not just at Ely, but between Felixstowe and the Midlands, and Peterborough / Norwich / Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

To do that, it’s more than ‘simply‘ redoubling Ely N Junctions, whihc in itself is non trivial.

I think everyone would agree that it would be a gross waste of taxpayers’ money to redouble Ely N Junctions and not be able to run any additional services because of constraints elsewhere.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The project, at its core, is to provide more train paths, and not just at Ely, but between Felixstowe and the Midlands, and Peterborough / Norwich / Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

To do that, it’s more than ‘simply‘ redoubling Ely N Junctions, whihc in itself is non trivial.

I think everyone would agree that it would be a gross waste of taxpayers’ money to redouble Ely N Junctions and not be able to run any additional services because of constraints elsewhere.

I think it will happen as there now is so mamy green initiatives that can happen without it, more freight by rail out of Felixstowe, more passengers going to be pushed to rail once again as the government is looking to raise money in the budget so motorists will be hit.

Forgetting the fact Ipswich to Cambridge and Peterborough needs more frequent services, there will come a point Norwich to Cambridge will want half hourly especially when east west rail opens.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it will happen as there now

But what is “it” ?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

But what is “it” ?

That I guess is the issue, Ely area improvement is not well defined yet

 

[DMckduck]

I can't imagine the terminating of services at Bracknell is stock related. Unfortunately, Bracknell works as a terminating point with the way the current timetable is structured, rather than Wokingham which would make more sense from a traffic perspective.

If I was to take a guess I think its related to the current super efficient guard diagrams. Simply don't think there is enough guards to make the change for LTPs. Even terminating at Wokingham would add time on that would need to be taken off another diagram to balance out the roster.

 

[Lg_]

I just noticed class 185s are returning to the west coast mainline in this timetable change years after they taken 185s off Preston depots route card. It’s a fully electrified route surely a 397 can fill in

Realtime Trains | 1M94 2053 Oxenholme Lake District to Manchester Airport | 16/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1M94 2053 departure from Oxenholme Lake District to Manchester Airport on 16/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This will be run as a 185 diagram crewed by a Manchester crew, I’m led to believe it’s to fill the random 18:04-20:04 gap between services off the airport towards Lancaster and to help maintain unit competency for the west coast drivers based at Manchester.

 

[splashoutradio]

Is there anywhere where I could find the proposed timetable? (Especially for Northern)

The Railway Data December 24 timetables should be online over the weekend, should that help.

 

[Northern158170]

The Railway Data December 24 timetables should be online over the weekend, should that help.

I was referencing the originally proposed May 2018 timetable change (prior to the cutbacks I think exist). This information is still useful to me though. Thanks

 

[Belperpete]

I was referencing the originally proposed May 2018 timetable change (prior to the cutbacks I think exist). This information is still useful to me though. Thanks

I could see the point in referring back to the actual 2018 timetable, but what is the point in harking back to something that was proposed over 7 years ago in mid 2017 and not fully implemented? The world has changed since then.

 

[SeanM1997]

As a result of the 0902 from Liverpool stopping at Lichfield and Tamworth the 0920 from Chester now runs in the normal path and calling pattern at 0932.

Also seems to be the return of the following giving a closer to hourly service to Chester:
Weekdays:
1102 London - Chester
1132 Chester - London (splitting off the 0902 to Holyhead)
1402 London - Chester (joining with the 1632 back to London)

1332 could be added soon as a return of the 1102 from London?

Saturdays:
0832 Chester - London
1102 London - Chester
1332 Chester - London
1502 London - Chester (no next working showing at the moment)

Its a shame there's no filler Crewe - Chester - Crewe on hours that Avanti do not operate. The current hourly TfW service is often standing only in hours that its the only service as provides a useful connection between North Wales and the Midlands. Hopefully there will be more services (especially in the morning hours which sees the 0630-1030 with no Avanti Crewe-Chester and evening hours between 1800 and 2100 between Chester-Crewe). The lack of 1745 Crewe-Chester does not help commuting patterns either.

 

[Northern158170]

I could see the point in referring back to the actual 2018 timetable, but what is the point in harking back to something that was proposed over 7 years ago in mid 2017 and not fully implemented? The world has changed since then.

General interest/curiosity

 

[Intercity_225]

Is the 1642 Kings Cross - Peterborough a new addition onto the timetable?