Penalty 128 pounds for what?

[kubaskubas]

May I suggest a few edits?

Dear Sirs,

Ref no.xxxxxxxxx

On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a fine of £120, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution asking what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court. I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.

Regards

I did not mention leaving the station to catch a bus since I think it may confuse things. (I'm a bit concerned about whether you can finish short on that ticket, but think it is ok. "Finish short" means finishing your journey before the destination on your ticket.)

Can you also confirm that I have got the bit right about being stopped / challenged by Jack Gillies. Did he stop you after you went through the ticket barrier but before you left the station? Did he say your ticket was ok?

Good luck.

yes I passed the gate but I was still at the station,

 

[WesternLancer]

May I suggest a few edits?

Dear Sir / Madam,

Ref no.xxxxxxxxx

On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a fine of £120, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR prosecution asking what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court. I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.

Regards

I did not mention leaving the station to catch a bus since I think it may confuse things. (I'm a bit concerned about whether you can finish short on that ticket, but think it is ok. "Finish short" means finishing your journey before the destination on your ticket.)

Can you also confirm that I have got the bit right about being stopped / challenged by Jack Gillies. Did he stop you after you went through the ticket barrier but before you left the station? Did he say your ticket was ok?

Good luck.

This is along the lines I was thinking of - I suggest some minor tweaking as below. Perhaps forum members who have followed this thread closely can suggest any further amendments if required

-------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir / Madam,

Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]

On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated a change of train at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a charge of £120 to avoid prosecution, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR Prosecutions Team asking what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court. I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

In summary I held a ticket that permitted me to make a break of journey according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (an Anytime Day Single Ticket). I therefore do not believe that I held an invalid ticket at any stage in my journey.

I would be most grateful if you could review this case with a view to withdrawing the proposed court proceedings

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]

-----------------------------
send this to the address on the top of the letter you uploaded at the start of the thread (showing at post #1) with tracked postal delivery from a post office. Also e-mail it to the e-mail address in that letter

 

[MrJeeves]

The main thing that sticks out to me as grating is "Dear Sirs" at the start. It comes across very 1900s.

Given that charges have been brought under Sue Gray's name, this is either incorrect, or (my view) should be addressed more broadly towards the "prosecutions department" as a whole.

 

[WesternLancer]

The main thing that sticks out to me as grating is "Dear Sirs" at the start. It comes across very 1900s.

Given that charges have been brought under Sue Gray's name, this is either incorrect, or (my view) should be addressed more broadly towards the "prosecutions department" as a whole.

well, it's a formal letter and in my view that form of address is the convention in the UK, but this won't be a big issue hopefully.

Could be amended to 'Dear Prosecutions Department' I guess

 

[30907]

The specific charge being laid by SWR is one of overtravelling, and I think the letter needs to mention this. I suggest rewording this sentence more strongly.

I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

Something along these lines, perhaps:

"The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution."

 

[WesternLancer]

The specific charge being laid by SWR is one of overtravelling, and I think the letter needs to mention this. I suggest rewording this sentence more strongly.

Something along these lines, perhaps:

"The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution."

Thanks

so new draft would be:

------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir / Madam,

Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]

On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated a change of train at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a charge of £120 to avoid prosecution, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR Prosecutions Team asking what I have to pay for and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court. I am not aware of having broken an law; if I have, can you please clarify the issue, or if not, cancel the Court proceedings.

The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution.

In summary I held a ticket that permitted me to make a break of journey according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (an Anytime Day Single Ticket), nor did I over travel. I therefore do not believe that I held an invalid ticket at any stage in my journey,

I would be most grateful if you could review this case with a view to withdrawing the proposed court proceedings

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]

-----------------------------

 

[pelli]

I note that one sentence in the original poster's first draft

Jack Gillies SWR employee checked me outside the gates which opened without any problem

could be interpreted in two different ways, with the subsequent amendments by other forum members being the incorrect way,

I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee without any issue being raised.

as compared with the description of events from the first post of the thread,

the gate opened without a problem and I got out, then they wanted me to show them my ticket, so I showed them and they told me that I would have an investigation

 

[philthetube]

I would add a line saying that you are Polish and have had assistance writing this letter.

 

[some bloke]

To minimise the risk of a quick glance and them dismissing the letter, I suggest something like:


....................


Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]


Dear Ms Gray,

Please act to end prosecution at once, as valid ticket held

You allege that I "overtravelled" to Clapham Junction.

In fact my ticket was valid via Clapham Junction.

It is a Staines to Earlsfield Anytime Day Single ticket.

For validity please see:

1 The itinerary on the ticket (attached: the itinerary is for a different time but the ticket was also valid for the service I took)

2 National Rail Enquiries

and/or

3 Southwestern's journey planner (the attached screenshot shows the result for Wednesday 9 October).

I received no reply to my email of (date).

I am Polish and have had help writing this letter.

Again, the allegation cannot be true as I held a valid ticket.

Please confirm at once that you will act to end this prosecution.

Thank you.

Yours sincerely,


[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

If you call customer services, they may give you an email address where you can send the same thing.

 

[WesternLancer]

To minimise the risk of a quick glance and them dismissing the letter, I suggest something like:


....................


Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]


Dear Ms Gray,

Please act to end prosecution at once, as valid ticket held

You allege that I "overtravelled" to Clapham Junction.

In fact my ticket was valid via Clapham Junction.

It is a Staines to Earlsfield Anytime Day Single ticket.

For validity please see:

1 The itinerary on the ticket (attached: the itinerary is for a different time but the ticket was also valid for the service I took)

2 National Rail Enquiries

and/or

3 Southwestern's journey planner (the attached screenshot shows the result for Wednesday 9 October).

I received no reply to my email of (date).

I am Polish and have had help writing this letter.

Again, the allegation cannot be true as I held a valid ticket.

Please confirm at once that you will act to end this prosecution.

Thank you.

Yours sincerely,


[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

If you call customer services, they may give you an email address where you can send the same thing.

There is an e-mail address on the letter from SWR uploaded in post # 1, for the Prosecution section, as well as a postal address - as set out in my post above.

If a different draft response to send to SWR is being now suggested I think it probably needs to be clear to the OP why earlier drafts (post 60 & 66) are not adequate, so that the OP can make an informed decision on what best to send.

 

[John R]

I think @some bloke 's version sets it out as clearly as it can possibly be. There's no need to write it in a nice style, and ask if they would be grateful to withdraw the prosecution. There's no need to be grateful, SWR is wrong to threaten prosecution.

 

[some bloke]

To minimise the risk of a quick glance and them dismissing the letter, I suggest something like:

Train companies often don't seem to read letters properly.

So I think it's good to:

- make the main points very clear, including at the start and end;

- leave out what's not necessary, so the reader doesn't get distracted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

There is an e-mail address on the letter from SWR uploaded in post # 1

Thank you - as they suggest email, I personally would try that first.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you - as they suggest email, I personally would try that first.

The op needs to use both e mail and post. They have e mailed before and it’s not worked. There is a court deadline to get this sorted by so time is vital.

The op should not delay also posting it imho.

This needs to be done today if at all possible in my view.

 

[Haywain]

I think @some bloke 's version sets it out as clearly as it can possibly be.

Not quite - it omits stating clearly what journey was actually taken.

There's no need to write it in a nice style, and ask if they would be grateful to withdraw the prosecution. There's no need to be grateful, SWR is wrong to threaten prosecution.

Being rude, or even blunt, doesn't do anything to help.

 

[John R]

Not quite - it omits stating clearly what journey was actually taken.

Being rude, or even blunt, doesn't do anything to help.

I think the first three sentences set out clearly the facts of what the ticket held was and the allegation of overtravelling.

I don't consider it rude or blunt. A letter can be very clearly set out without being rude or blunt, but simply stating the facts, which I think this does.

 

[some bloke]

omits stating clearly what journey was actually taken.

It's in their own "Statement of Facts".

You can write in the email,

"Please confirm by the end of today, 30 September [or 'tomorrow, 1 October'], that you will act to end the prosecution".

As there's over two weeks before the court date and your email will show they have no hope of conviction, I personally wouldn't bother printing the material and posting unless emailing doesn't work. If it's convenient for you, then posting now may be suitable.

 

[Haywain]

It's in their own "Statement of Facts".

I think it does no harm, and avoids ambiguity, to state the the ticket held was Staines to Earlsfield, and that the OP travelled on a direct train from Staines to Clapham Junction where they left the station. As it stands, there is no denying that the OP left the station, but there appears to be a lack of understanding as to how they arrived there.

 

[MotCO]

I take the point about setting out the issue at the top, but feel that my original verson is a little less abrupt. Howabout an amalgamation of the two:


Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]


Dear Ms Gray,

I write to ask you to cancel the prosecution case against me since I held, and showed, a valid ticket for the journey I took.

I refer to your letter dated 17 Septemer 2024 in which you allege that I "overtravelled" to Clapham Junction, whereas the ticket I held was valid via Clapham Junction.

The facts are as follows. On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change of train at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a charge of £120 to avoid prosecution, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR Prosecutions Team and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court.

The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution.


For validity please see:
1 The itinerary on the ticket (attached: the itinerary is for a different time but the ticket was also valid for the service I took)
2 National Rail Enquiries
and/or
3 Southwestern's journey planner (the attached screenshot shows the result for Wednesday 9 October).


I would be most grateful if you could review this case with a view to withdrawing the proposed court proceedings

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.


In summary I held a ticket that permitted me to make a break of journey according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (an Anytime Day Single Ticket), nor did I over travel. I therefore do not believe that I held an invalid ticket at any stage in my journey.


I am Polish and have had help writing this letter.


I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]


I suggest that if you send it by post, you take it to a Post Office and ask for it to be sent 'Signed For' - this gives proof that SWT received the letter. It also proves when you sent it. It will cost a little more than normal post.

 

[WesternLancer]

I take the point about setting out the issue at the top, but feel that my original verson is a little less abrupt. Howabout an amalgamation of the two:


Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]


Dear Ms Gray,

I write to ask you to cancel the prosecution case against me since I held, and showed, a valid ticket for the journey I took.

I refer to your letter dated 17 Septemer 2024 in which you allege that I "overtravelled" to Clapham Junction, whereas the ticket I held was valid via Clapham Junction.

The facts are as follows. On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change of train at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a charge of £120 to avoid prosecution, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR Prosecutions Team and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court.

The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution.


For validity please see:
1 The itinerary on the ticket (attached: the itinerary is for a different time but the ticket was also valid for the service I took)
2 National Rail Enquiries
and/or
3 Southwestern's journey planner (the attached screenshot shows the result for Wednesday 9 October).


I would be most grateful if you could review this case with a view to withdrawing the proposed court proceedings

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.


In summary I held a ticket that permitted me to make a break of journey according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (an Anytime Day Single Ticket), nor did I over travel. I therefore do not believe that I held an invalid ticket at any stage in my journey.


I am Polish and have had help writing this letter.


I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]


I suggest that if you send it by post, you take it to a Post Office and ask for it to be sent 'Signed For' - this gives proof that SWT received the letter. It also proves when you sent it. It will cost a little more than normal post.

personally I think this does the trick, for what it's worth.

 

[reb0118]

Ref no. [insert case ref numbers / court paper ref numbers]


Dear Ms Gray,

I write to ask you to cancel the prosecution case against me since I held, and showed, a valid ticket for the journey I took.

I refer to your letter dated 17 Septemer 2024 in which you allege that I "overtravelled" to Clapham Junction, whereas the ticket I held was valid via Clapham Junction.

The facts are as follows. On 24 April 2024 I travelled from Staines to Earlsfield. I bought an Anytime Day Single ticket at 16:15 for the journey, with a stipulated change of train at Clapham Junction.

I boarded the train at 16:28 and got off at Clapham Junction at 16:52. I left the station, exercising my right to a Break of Journey; there were no restrictions on my ticket. I exited through the gates with no problem, and was then stopped by Mr. Jack Gillies, an SWR employee.

Some time later, I received a letter saying that I have to pay a charge of £120 to avoid prosecution, and if I do not pay within 3 weeks, a Court case will be opened. I immediately wrote an email to SWR Prosecutions Team and sent proof of purchase of the ticket. I did not receive a reply, and after some time I got a letter stating that I was being taken to Court.

The alleged offence is that I proceeded beyond the distance for which my ticket was valid. As Clapham Junction is on the normal route between Staines and Earlsfield (as shown by the ticket) it is clear that I did not overtravel. I am therefore not guilty of this offence, and I request you to discontinue this prosecution.


For validity please see:
1 The itinerary on the ticket (attached: the itinerary is for a different time but the ticket was also valid for the service I took)
2 National Rail Enquiries
and/or
3 Southwestern's journey planner (the attached screenshot shows the result for Wednesday 9 October).


I would be most grateful if you could review this case with a view to withdrawing the proposed court proceedings

I attach a copy of the valid ticket which I used.


In summary I held a ticket that permitted me to make a break of journey according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (an Anytime Day Single Ticket), nor did I over travel. I therefore do not believe that I held an invalid ticket at any stage in my journey.


I am Polish and have had help writing this letter.


I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

[Insert your name, full postal address and e-mail address]

I agree that the above letter should be sufficient. Remember to keep a copy until this matter is resolved. As suggested above, send it from the post office as "signed for" and retain your proof of posting.

Hopefully, this will stop the matter but when dealing with "officialdom" never say never. However, you can return here for further advice if necessary.

 

[kubaskubas]

Ok i sended email yesterday, letter today, they wrote me back on email that the case is being canceled, I would like to thanks to all, all persons which help me here are amazing, helped me a lot on this forum, may you be as successful as possible, and now the question is whether to file a complaint against Mr. Jack? because he is an incompetent person and does it make sense for him to be held accountable?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... now the question is whether to file a complaint against Mr. Jacek? because he is an incompetent person and does it make sense for him to be held accountable?

Can you remind us / advise us who exactly Mr. Jacek is?

 

[Haywain]

Ok i sended email yesterday, letter today, they wrote me back on email that the case is being canceled, I would like to thanks to all, all persons which help me here are amazing, helped me a lot on this forum, may you be as successful as possible, and now the question is whether to file a complaint against Mr. Jacek? because he is an incompetent person and does it make sense for him to be held accountable?

Let it go and get on with your life.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you remind us / advise us who exactly Mr. Jacek is?

"Jack" is the gateline staffer.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Ok i sended email yesterday, letter today, they wrote me back on email that the case is being canceled, I would like to thanks to all, all persons which help me here are amazing, helped me a lot on this forum, may you be as successful as possible, and now the question is whether to file a complaint against Mr. Jacek? because he is an incompetent person and does it make sense for him to be held accountable?

I think you are aiming your anger at the wrong person. You were reported by the gate line staff but it was the prosecution department who decided to prosecute you and it is that department who should be sorting out the nonsense from the real cases. They are also the ones with the power and responsibility. Your complaint should be about them.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I think you are aiming your anger at the wrong person. You were reported by the gate line staff but it was the prosecution department who decided to prosecute you and it is that department who should be sorting out the nonsense from the real cases. They are also the ones with the power and responsibility. Your complaint should be about them.

Its not just that though is it?

Its three things really:

- the quality of the training

- the gateline staff member

- the prosecution team not realising the OP wasn't at fault

What we don't know is whether the gateline chap was acting according to the training he was given, or whether he was busking it, and realistically we never will

If it was me I'd probably write to the CEO's office and get it off my chest, and then move on with my life

 

[John R]

Or maybe write to London TravelWatch to complain?

 

[some bloke]

Well done @kubaskubas !

Could you please post their email on here (with identifying details obscured, of course)?

It may have something of interest about how they are operating.

 

[WesternLancer]

Or maybe write to London TravelWatch to complain?

If doing anything to follow it up this would be the thing I would do.

It’s v poor that it took 2 or 3 messages to their prosecutions team for them to appreciate the situation and drop the case.

Despite all their inclusivity statements they also failed to understand communication from someone who did not have English as a first language despite operating services in highly diverse and multilingual city. That’s also poor.

 

[DeverseSam]

whether the gateline chap was acting according to the training he was given, or whether he was busking it, and realistically we never will

unless he googles himself and ends up on this thread!