Excessing Railcard Discounted Tickets Used at an Invalid Time

[jamiearmley]

Moderator Note = split from:

Reported for using Railcard discount before 10am

Hoping somebody can provide some thoughts around the below story. I'm confused and would appreciate any feedback. My son has just started studying at Uni. He is using the the rail service for the first time to commute. He was not aware that he could not use his 16-25 railcard before 10am (his...

www.railforums.co.uk

Presume NOT a Trainline price error. Was the appropriate sanction for just the excess (to the minimum fare) to have been charged? Or will this matter likely now prove to be much more expensive for the OP's son to resolve?

This tends to be seen as a deliberate attempt at fare evasion.

The rationale is that Trainline presents you with a series of train times and prices, all on the same screen, one after the other, for you to make your selection from . In cases where the fares are low and do not meet the £12 minimum fare threshold , the ones after 10:00 a.m. are cheaper and the ones before 10:00 a.m. are more expensive because they do not have the railcard discount applied.

Whether or not you are aware of the minimum fare, it is clear to the purchaser that the trains after 10:00 a.m. are cheaper and the ones before 10:00 a.m. are more expensive.

Therefore, picking a cheaper ticket for a train time after 10:00 a.m. and travelling before 10:00 a.m. is seen as a deliberate decision on the part of the purchaser.

Now I know this is subject to debate - However, this is the logic that is generally applied here.

 

[RPI]

Which will be abundantly clear on an eTicket

Only when viewed in the app (as opposed to Apple/Android wallet or PDF), with flexible tickets the train times are not that obvious on the actual ticket. It is, obvious when booking though.

 

[furlong]

My son has just started studying at Uni. He is using the the rail service for the first time to commute. He was not aware that he could not use his 16-25 railcard before 10am (his fault, should have read T&Cs, as a parent my fault too).

Firstly, if you did read the T&Cs you might be just as confused as the train companies don't actually seem to implement the minimum fare in the way the contract requires.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:
4.5.1. Advance tickets; or
4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or
4.5.3. journeys during July and August.
At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12.

If the ticket was £16,75, then under the terms and conditions "the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare", as this fare is above the minimum fare, the discount of 1/3 is applied making the fare to be paid £11.15. (Recall that any ambiguity should be resolved in favour of the consumer. The headline is "Get 1/3 off train travel with a 16-25 railcard" - it is a fixed discount - if it was a variable discount it would have to say "Get up to 1/3 off" but it doesn't. 4.5 is the only place that defines precisely what they mean by "minimum fare" - it defines it as a fare below which the discount is not applied rather than the minimum amount you would always have to pay.)

Secondly, if the ticket was only valid after 10am, (and assuming the previous argument gets nowhere because "notwithstanding what the T&Cs actually say, this is how we've always done it") the remedy was to be charged the difference in fare:

9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[swt_passenger]

Firstly, if you did read the T&Cs you might be just as confused as the train companies don't actually seem to implement the minimum fare in the way the contract requires.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

If the ticket was £16,75, then under the terms and conditions "the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare", as this fare is above the minimum fare, the discount of 1/3 is applied making the fare to be paid £11.15. (Recall that any ambiguity should be resolved in favour of the consumer. The headline is "Get 1/3 off train travel with a 16-25 railcard" - it is a fixed discount - if it was a variable discount it would have to say "Get up to 1/3 off" but it doesn't. 4.5 is the only place that defines precisely what they mean by "minimum fare" - it defines it as a fare below which the discount is not applied rather than the minimum amount you would always have to pay.)

Secondly, if the ticket was only valid after 10am, (and assuming the previous argument gets nowhere because "notwithstanding what the T&Cs actually say, this is how we've always done it") the remedy was to be charged the difference in fare:

I’ve read a lot of threads about this, and I don’t believe an excess to the undiscounted fare is allowable. Using a railcard outside of its terms and conditions is not the same as the Peak/Offpeak issue that the NRCoT describe.

 

[BongoStar]

Secondly, if the ticket was only valid after 10am, (and assuming the previous argument gets nowhere because "notwithstanding what the T&Cs actually say, this is how we've always done it") the remedy was to be charged the difference in fare:

My understanding is that a railcard is a discounting mechanism applied to an underlying ticket. It does not alter the inherent restriction of a ticket except the price. So a railcard will not make an offpeak ticket an advance one etc

However, the Railcard T&C restrict when the discount is effective. (All weekend, after 10m, etc etc).

The 9.2 section quoted explicitly refers to time restricted "ticket" and not a time restricted "discount". The railcard discount mix-up is therefore excluded.

If such excesses were possible, then nothing prevents anyone from buying discounted tickets and pay the difference when challenged.

 

[furlong]

It is a "time-restricted ticket": What else could it be? The ticket that was sold is valid after 10am - but only before 10am if the fare difference is paid.
This meets both the letter and spirit of 9.5.1 designed to give the passenger the benefit of the doubt over the complex issue of times of validity.

Further, failing to mention the "cannot use this ticket before 10am" time restriction when selling it, may put the retailer in breach of this condition:

2.3When purchasing your Ticket, we will make available information on specific restrictions that apply to your Ticket (for instance the train services on which you can use your Ticket or the route(s) you are entitled to use)

As the SRA put it 20 years ago, in the context of Penalty Fares:

If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold.

 

[Watershed]

If such excesses were possible, then nothing prevents anyone from buying discounted tickets and pay the difference when challenged.

The same could be said about Off-Peak or route restricted tickets, which are both "excessable" without penalty.

 

[some bloke]

He purchased an 'Anytime' day single for the date of his journey and the train he took was 8:21am (before 10am). The ticket shows the two stations he's traveling between (and he was on that route, not travelled beyond final station) and it clearly shows a Railcard is associated to the ticket. The ticket conditions confirm it is a flexible ticket with no restrictions and that you can use a railcard. Terms that he is used to from previously using trains are 'peak' and 'off peak' but this purely said 'Anytime'.

This page may be of interest:

"There are no restrictions on the time of day you can travel with an Anytime ticket, meaning you can board a train during Peak, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak hours."

"Anytime train tickets are completely flexible tickets that let you travel at any time of the day."

"Got a Railcard? Then you're in luck, as you can use most Railcards to get discounts on Anytime train tickets."


"When can I use my Anytime Day train ticket?

You can only use an Anytime Day Single ticket on the date shown on your ticket, the same goes for Anytime Day Return tickets. So, you can’t spread your journey out across other dates if this is the ticket type you've bought. Be sure to check the fare conditions displayed before you book."


"When can I use my Anytime Single train ticket?

You can use your Anytime Single train ticket on the date shown, or up until the end of the next day. Anytime Single tickets are the perfect option if you know you need to make a one-way trip within a two-day timeframe but aren’t sure of the exact time you’ll travel.


When can I use my Anytime Return train ticket?

....Choose this Open Return train ticket for leisure trips where you know you may need to travel back home, but aren’t sure of the exact date and time."

Anytime Train Tickets | Anytime Single & Return Tickets | Trainline

Looking for Anytime UK train tickets? Find information, search and book cheap Anytime Single and Anytime Return train tickets online with Trainline today.

web.archive.org

 

[BongoStar]

It is a "time-restricted ticket": What else could it be? The ticket that was sold is valid after 10am - but only before 10am if the fare difference is paid.

The same could be said about Off-Peak or route restricted tickets, which are both "excessable" without penalty.

Happy to be corrected, but I don't think that's how it is interpreted contractually.

9.5.1 applies to restrictions that a ticket has by default, not restrictions added to it by a railcard.

What the end user is purchasing is a ticket for travel (peak, off peak, advance, season etc). The ticket has its default time and route restrictions. The user is then opting to have it discounted by a railcard in return for additional restrictions.

An off peak is not a "discounted peak" ticket in the sense that these are two distinct products. I realise that's how it appears to end user, but contractually these are separate offerings.

A railcard driven price decrease is a discount on an offering. There exists no separate "network railcard offpeak RDG to PAD ticket", just an offpeak ticket as a standard product for the route RDG to PAD with customisation of network railcard.

The railcard discount isn't creating a new ticket product, but simply giving you a reduction in price in return for additional restrictions.

Coming to excessing: The underlying ticket has cash as the purchase consideration and the additional discount (via railcard) has additional restrictions as the purchase consideration.

Which is why (with the exception of advance fares) you can excess one product offering to another by topping up the cash consideration, but you cannot excess a railcard discounted to a non-discounted ticket. You usually have to get a refund on the original discounted ticket and buy a new one. You can't even "swap" the railcard type. Which is why plenty of people get penalised for erroneously applying the wrong railcard type eveb when the discount will be the same.
 
Hope I have set it out as clear as I think I have, but open to clarify further on any point.

 

[Watershed]

Happy to be corrected, but I don't think that's how it is interpreted contractually.

9.5.1 applies to restrictions that a ticket has by default, not restrictions added to it by a railcard.

What the end user is purchasing is a ticket for travel (peak, off peak, advance, season etc). The ticket has its default time and route restrictions. The user is then opting to have it discounted by a railcard in return for additional restrictions.

An off peak is not a "discounted peak" ticket in the sense that these are two distinct products. I realise that's how it appears to end user, but contractually these are separate offerings.

A railcard driven price decrease is a discount on an offering. There exists no separate "network railcard offpeak RDG to PAD ticket", just an offpeak ticket as a standard product for the route RDG to PAD with customisation of network railcard.

The railcard discount isn't creating a new ticket product, but simply giving you a reduction in price in return for additional restrictions.

Coming to excessing: The underlying ticket has cash as the purchase consideration and the additional discount (via railcard) has additional restrictions as the purchase consideration.

Which is why (with the exception of advance fares) you can excess one product offering to another by topping up the cash consideration, but you cannot excess a railcard discounted to a non-discounted ticket. You usually have to get a refund on the original discounted ticket and buy a new one. You can't even "swap" the railcard type. Which is why plenty of people get penalised for erroneously applying the wrong railcard type eveb when the discount will be the same.
 
Hope I have set it out as clear as I think I have, but open to clarify further on any point.

This no doubt reflects the position the rail industry would like there to be. That doesn't necessarily mean it is the actual legal position though.

 

[some bloke]

The 9.2 section quoted explicitly refers to time restricted "ticket" and not a time restricted "discount".

Under consumer rights law, for that kind of argument to succeed it must show that the wording can't have the other meaning.

It seems to me some people would reasonably think it includes tickets whose validity is time-restricted because of railcard conditions.

And then there's this:

failing to mention the "cannot use this ticket before 10am" time restriction when selling it, may put the retailer in breach of this condition:

 

[methecooldude]

NRCoT 8.2:
The Railcard may have additional restrictions which will apply to any Tickets you buy
when using it.

 

[BongoStar]

Under consumer rights law, for that kind of argument to succeed it must show that the wording can't have the other meaning.

It seems to me some people would reasonably think it includes tickets whose validity is time-restricted because of railcard conditions.

I agree this is generally the case when there is ambiguity. But in this case ToCs dont sell a rail-card discounted ticket by default. It is the consumer who decides to apply it to their ticket after selecting the base product. They very well know what they signed up for by the T&Cs of the railcard they intend to use. By requiring the consumer to make a concious choice in application of the railcard, the ToC have smartly/conveniently passed the onus over here to consumer. If they dont understand what they are buying, they should seek clarification.

Further, failing to mention the "cannot use this ticket before 10am" time restriction when selling it, may put the retailer in breach of this condition:

There is nothing for ToC to mention to the consumer because they dont sell railcard discounted ticket unless the user inputs the itinerary to be after 10am (for network card as an example). As the TVM system is designed, one cannot buy a railcard discounted ticket for use outside its allowed times. Its not that one can buy a network railcard discounted ticket for a 8am itinerary on a weekday. Besides, all terms were clearly set out when the railcard was purchased, there is no requirement to communicate the terms each time it is applied.

All cases in dispute section around this theme arise because the users bought the ticket by indicating they will travel after 10am (for network card as an example) and then taking an earlier train. Cant really blame ToC for not doing what they were not meant to do.

 

[some bloke]

They very well know what they signed up for by the T&Cs of the railcard they intend to use. By requiring the consumer to make a concious choice in application of the railcard, the ToC have smartly/conveniently passed the onus over here to consumer. If they dont understand what they are buying, they should seek clarification.

But the issue of 9.5 is not about responsibility for buying the right product.

It's about the meaning of a statement as to what will happen if a "time-restricted ticket" is used at the wrong time.

 

[Tedb]

Thanks for all the information above and sorry for slow reply. I’m a simple person and looking at the ticket conditions of flexi ticket use at any time and discounts yes - you can use a railcard…I find it hard to swallow that we’ll now be paying a hefty fine. Especially as the same ticket type was scanned two days earlier and OK’d by a GWR staff member. Completely get that my son should have known it wasn’t usable before 10am (£2.50 ticket) and have no leg to really stand on. No point of appealing, it will drag on and we’ll probably be asked to pay costs on top. One final question. If somebody presents a valid ticket to an Inspector does the Inspector have the authority to ask for previous purchase history?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One final question. If somebody presents a valid ticket to an Inspector does the Inspector have the authority to ask for previous purchase history?

Why would you expect that they would ever want to do so? It's normally only ever the case that passengers who have been caught using incorrectly or inappropriately discounted tickets (or maybe for some other ticketing Irregularity), who are liable to be reported, so that they can have their ticket purchase history looked into, as there's every chance that they'll have done similar before.

 

[Yew]

Quite a disappointing set of actions from the TOC, issuing an excess would have been a much more reasonable action. Especially as I could see no reason that with modern tickets, the restriction could not be noted on the ticket.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Is it reasonable for a railcard holder to be completely familiar with all the terms and conditions?
Even if reading them through when the railcard is purchased, the holder may not have travelled travel before 10am where the minimum fare applies for 11 months. Forgetting about this restriction, or indeed any other terms and conditions which haven't applied to previous journeys is quite likely.

 

[Tedb]

My concern with all of this is that young people who have just moved 100s of miles from friends and family, who might be using a train for the first time before 10am, can buy the wrong ticket/s and end up being told they will be fined, potentially taken to court and there could be a prison sentence of up to 3 months. Plus, they’ll learn their fate in weeks or months…giving them plenty of time to worry about it. Could the in carriage advertising feature ‘not to use 16-25 railcard before 10am’ for the first few months of term time? Could the message regarding fines and court proceedings be segmented based on value or frequency? Could there be a helpline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My concern with all of this is that young people who have just moved 100s of miles from friends and family, who might be using a train for the first time before 10am, can buy the wrong ticket/s and end up being told they will be fined, potentially taken to court and there could be a prison sentence of up to 3 months. Plus, they’ll learn their fate in weeks or months…giving them plenty of time to worry about it. Could the in carriage advertising feature ‘not to use 16-25 railcard before 10am’ for the first few months of term time? Could the message regarding fines and court proceedings be segmented based on value or frequency? Could there be a helpline?

Could people just, you know, actually read what they've signed up to? Or if they're not sure, buy the correct ticket by selecting an itinerary or asking for help at a booking office?

If you're good enough to go to uni, you're good enough to read some simple terms and conditions.

 

[Tedb]

Could people just, you know, actually read what they've signed up to? Or if they're not sure, buy the correct ticket by selecting an itinerary or asking for help at a booking office?

If you're good enough to go to uni, you're good enough to read some simple terms and conditions.

could people just, you know, maybe consider what some people go through when something like this happens? I’m not arguing wrong or right…i’m flagging this is a scary process and I worry about how this might effect some people

 

[BongoStar]

Could people just, you know, actually read what they've signed up to? Or if they're not sure, buy the correct ticket by selecting an itinerary or asking for help at a booking office?

If you're good enough to go to uni, you're good enough to read some simple terms and conditions.

Exactly. It's not that the morning peak restriction is hidden in small print. Just looked at the 16-25 Railcard page and it lists it out clearly on the main page.

"Eligibility and terms of use
●Buy a Railcard and keep it with you when you travel (on your phone or wallet)
●Save on most tickets including Advance tickets
●£12 minimum fare applies on morning peak"

Infact, if one honestly purchases ticket aligned to their itinerary, they don't even need to remember the restrictions, because TVM would not sell a discounted ticket for a time when it is not valid. Simple as that.

 

[Tedb]

Exactly. It's not that the morning peak restriction is hidden in small print. Just looked at the 16-25 Railcard page and it lists it out clearly on the main page.

"Eligibility and terms of use
●Buy a Railcard and keep it with you when you travel (on your phone or wallet)
●Save on most tickets including Advance tickets
●£12 minimum fare applies on morning peak"

Infact, if one honestly purchases ticket aligned to their itinerary, they don't even need to remember the restrictions, because TVM would not sell a discounted ticket for a time when it is not valid. Simple as that.

OK. I’m new to this Forum have been finding it helpful at a stressful time. Merely commented that I have concerns for people who have made mistakes and the messages coming back now are basically saying ‘it’s your own fault’ without consideration of potential circumstances and the actual people involved. Not everybody reads T&Cs. I doubt anybody reads all the T&Cs for everything they purchase. He didn’t, he should have…there’s no need to be so blunt.

 

[sheff1]

Could people just, you know, actually read what they've signed up to?

Of course, you should but, as multiple threads on here show, many ticket checkers seemingly see no need to read the actual rules relating to tickets they are falsely claiming to be invalid, including the rules about excessing tickets.
You might think people being paid to check tickets would be sure to read the relevent documents before penalising people but TOCs clearly do not see that as a prerequisite.

 

[Hadders]

There's a number of things that need to be considered here, and getting the balance right is never going to be easy. Things that need to be considered:

• Many people consider rail ticketing restrictions (and railcard restrictions) confusing. 'Us' on here understand them but we're not representative of the 'man on the street'
• What should the appropriate remedy be for someone travelling with a railcard discounted ticket at an invalid time
• Railcard ticket evasion is a big issue. You only have to look through this section of the forum to see that
• How are the 'honest' mistakes differentiated from the 'dishonest' mistakes
• If railcard discounts are simplified then it's highly likely to mean many people paying more - eg a blanket ban on the use of the 16-25 and Senior Railcards before 09:30

 

[wilbers]

Just stating prominently on the ticket (when not already done so) NOT FOR USE BEFORE 10AM or something similar would help - fewer would use it by mistake, and then its also rather more obvious if its misused.

Presumably if someone uses it just before 10AM then in most cases it would be valid from the first station call after 10AM so in those circumstance selling a ticket for just the first bit would be fair if its thought to be a genuine one-time mistake, and penalty fare if its thought to be deliberate (such as if its 8.30AM). [and taking details if suspected to be done on a regular basis]

 

[Krokodil]

My concern with all of this is that young people who have just moved 100s of miles from friends and family, who might be using a train for the first time before 10am, can buy the wrong ticket/s

Invariably when I come across someone on the 07:02 from Anytown with a railcard-discounted ticket that hasn't had the minimum fare applied when it should have done, it's always the 10:02 shown in their itinerary. Not the 11:02, nor the 14:02. The vague excuse about a last-minute change of morning lecture time I get when I question them isn't really convincing, and the ineviatable conclusion is that they've done it deliberately. Maybe they didn't know the precise rule, but they saw that the 10:02 train was cheaper than the 07:02, bought that ticket and boarded the 07:02 anyway so they must have known that they were circumventing something.

I do agree though that going straight to reporting for prosecution seems harsh. A penalty fare may have been appropriate if in an area that those can be issued, or just issuing a new Anytime Single.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

• If railcard discounts are simplified then it's highly likely to mean many people paying more - eg a blanket ban on the use of the 16-25 and Senior Railcards before 09:30

The £12 minimum fare loses its relevance more and more each year as inflation pushes more tickets above the threshold but the £12 hasn't changed in decades. We certainly don't want a change to a blanket rule like the Two Together railcard has, I hate that I can't discount a ticket for a passenger travelling pre-09:30 on a sleepy rural stopping service.

 

[Tedb]

Just stating prominently on the ticket (when not already done so) NOT FOR USE BEFORE 10AM or something similar would help - fewer would use it by mistake, and then its also rather more obvious if its misused.

Presumably if someone uses it just before 10AM then in most cases it would be valid from the first station call after 10AM so in those circumstance selling a ticket for just the first bit would be fair if its thought to be a genuine one-time mistake, and penalty fare if its thought to be deliberate (such as if its 8.30AM). [and taking details if suspected to be done on a regular basis]

Not for use before 10am would be great. And when scrolling through the options on Trainline that show ‘Anytime’ add ‘T&Cs apply’. On the reverse don’t have flexi, flag it’s after 10am and on the discounts section don’t say yes-railcards are accepted…say ‘may be accepted, check T&Cs’.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

There's a number of things that need to be considered here, and getting the balance right is never going to be easy. Things that need to be considered:

• Many people consider rail ticketing restrictions (and railcard restrictions) confusing. 'Us' on here understand them but we're not representative of the 'man on the street'
• What should the appropriate remedy be for someone travelling with a railcard discounted ticket at an invalid time
• Railcard ticket evasion is a big issue. You only have to look through this section of the forum to see that
• How are the 'honest' mistakes differentiated from the 'dishonest' mistakes
• If railcard discounts are simplified then it's highly likely to mean many people paying more - eg a blanket ban on the use of the 16-25 and Senior Railcards before 09:30

Thanks Hadders. Think you’ve hit the nail on the head

 

[tspaul26]

Not for use before 10am would be great. And when scrolling through the options on Trainline that show ‘Anytime’ add ‘T&Cs apply’. On the reverse don’t have flexi, flag it’s after 10am and on the discounts section don’t say yes-railcards are accepted…say ‘may be accepted, check T&Cs’.

The problem here is that you also seem to be of a mind that it is unreasonable for people to read the terms and conditions in the first place.

And let me tell you a secret from over a decade of professional experience: they still won’t read them even if you add these rubrics.

You are, quite frankly, casting around for excuses.

 

[Tedb]

This page may be of interest:

"There are no restrictions on the time of day you can travel with an Anytime ticket, meaning you can board a train during Peak, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak hours."

"Anytime train tickets are completely flexible tickets that let you travel at any time of the day."

"Got a Railcard? Then you're in luck, as you can use most Railcards to get discounts on Anytime train tickets."


"When can I use my Anytime Day train ticket?

You can only use an Anytime Day Single ticket on the date shown on your ticket, the same goes for Anytime Day Return tickets. So, you can’t spread your journey out across other dates if this is the ticket type you've bought. Be sure to check the fare conditions displayed before you book."


"When can I use my Anytime Single train ticket?

You can use your Anytime Single train ticket on the date shown, or up until the end of the next day. Anytime Single tickets are the perfect option if you know you need to make a one-way trip within a two-day timeframe but aren’t sure of the exact time you’ll travel.


When can I use my Anytime Return train ticket?

....Choose this Open Return train ticket for leisure trips where you know you may need to travel back home, but aren’t sure of the exact date and time."

Anytime Train Tickets | Anytime Single & Return Tickets | Trainline

Looking for Anytime UK train tickets? Find information, search and book cheap Anytime Single and Anytime Return train tickets online with Trainline today.

web.archive.org

Thanks for above