Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[The exile]

Electric cars will elimnate pollution

Not entirely (they still have tyres etc) and their greater weight will take more of a toll on the road surface.

 

[yorksrob]

In some countries, buses are considered a way of reducing congestion and the other negative effects of car travel.

I doubt that they see it as the be all and end all of bus transport though.

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Although it is surely not the revenue raiser it once was.

Probably not. What's left will need to be replaced though.

 

[renegademaster]

Not entirely (they still have tyres etc) and their greater weight will take more of a toll on the road surface.

How much is tire dust an actual problem though? I always hear this brought up , but how many people actually get impacted healthwise by it?
If it's only say 5% the impact of exhaust pollution , it wouldnt make sense for the penalty for creating it to be the same one as a petrol car would get for belching many more fumes

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much is tire dust an actual problem though? I always hear this brought up , but how many people actually get impacted healthwise by it?
If it's only say 5% the impact of exhaust pollution , it wouldnt make sense for the penalty for creating it to be the same one as a petrol car would get for belching many more fumes

The bigger question is that if you remove taxes like those on motoring how are you going to replace that money? Would you be happy with 10 percentage points added to the base rate of income tax, say? (That's a random figure, but I'm sure the actual figure wouldn't be small).

 

[renegademaster]

The bigger question is that if you remove taxes like those on motoring how are you going to replace that money? Would you be happy with 10 percentage points added to the base rate of income tax, say? (That's a random figure, but I'm sure the actual figure wouldn't be small).

rising every tax a little bit rather than dumping everything on income tax would probally be easier. For the average , car owning brit, whatever way you distrubute its still the same ammount of money coming out his bank account

 

[Bletchleyite]

rising every tax a little bit rather than dumping everything on income tax would probally be easier. For the average , car owning brit, whatever way you distrubute its still the same ammount of money coming out his bank account

What would probably be easiest would be finding a way to keep motoring taxes roughly at their present levels post mass EV adoption.

 

[Teapot42]

I think it's entirely realistic if we are willing to invest in high quality public transport*. People even in rich places like Aughton and Formby go to Liverpool by train and mostly won't consider the car because why would you? Similarly people who live near Metrolink stations in Manchester.

* Slow, long bus services taking an hour into the city centre do not constitute "high quality public transport" even if the vehicle itself is fancy.

This is something I was pondering the other day. It seems that most cities of any size on the continent have tram and metro lines, plus better urban rail provision. While you raise Manchester as an example - and in a UK context it is quite good - it still isn't that comparable with similarly sized places elsewhere. The local rail network tries to compensate for the lack of a metro while gumming up heavy rail lines that could better serve longer distance routes for example. The Metrolink seems to be beyond capacity to the west of the centre - when I was there a few weeks back it was a constant stream of trams through Castlefield with many delays as a result.

In Sheffield they are pondering what happens when the existing trams reach the end of their life - which can't be that far off. One route gets a single tram an hour, and there are large areas of the city with no trams. Local trains are practically non-existent, mainly because the majority of urban stations were closed and never reopened. What bus lanes there are have very limited operating hours - at the weekend they become car parks meaning leisure journeys in to town by bus are a strain as you get stuck in the same traffic as if you'd driven.

However, I think the big problem will be the sheer cost of changing this, as there is a lot of inertia to overcome. The mindset is to drive. We needed the public transport several decades ago, the lack and poor quality has become ingrained in the British psyche. Provision needs to be put in place, but the modal shift will take decades to gain momentum to start paying back the initial investment, and what government is brave enough to take on a debt that will take so long to start being repaid? We've already seen how quick the last government was to remove the 'burden' of HS2, and how absent the commitment of the current one is to restore it.

 

[Sealink]

The Telegraph obviously has it's own agenda, and have a suitably attention grabbing headline here:

Fares on Britain’s most scenic bus route to rise from £4 to £25 under Reeves cuts

"However, with the England-wide cap expected to become a casualty of the Chancellor’s spending clampdown later this month, prices on the route could hit £25 for a return ticket, based on the original price and allowing for inflation, up from £4 today."

NB: There is a fair bit of assumption in the article too.
This article from March was excellent

‘Exceptionally difficult’ warning for bus fare increases after £2 cap

"It will be “exceptionally difficult” for the bus industry in England to return to fare scales at commercial levels when the government-funded £2 cap comes to an end, an independent operator has warned."

 

[Teapot42]

How much is tire dust an actual problem though? I always hear this brought up , but how many people actually get impacted healthwise by it?
If it's only say 5% the impact of exhaust pollution , it wouldnt make sense for the penalty for creating it to be the same one as a petrol car would get for belching many more fumes

This is one area where they don't seem to be totally sure, but there seems to be a bit of concern. I think it's mostly brake dust rather than tyre particulates, but they can be small enough to enter the body in ways we aren't sure of the impact of. They also seem to be the sort of pollution that is very hard to get rid of, and can pollute plants and water moreso that exhaust fumes do.

As for how many people - we don't monitor enough to tell. There are so many contributors that it's hard to assign blame without data we simply don't have.

 

[duncombec]

The Telegraph obviously has it's own agenda, and have a suitably attention grabbing headline here:

Fares on Britain’s most scenic bus route to rise from £4 to £25 under Reeves cuts

"However, with the England-wide cap expected to become a casualty of the Chancellor’s spending clampdown later this month, prices on the route could hit £25 for a return ticket, based on the original price and allowing for inflation, up from £4 today."

NB: There is a fair bit of assumption in the article too.

The article has been discussed over the last few days.

The assumption is rife - a Daytripper Plus (valid on Coastliner) is only £22, so why would they think that a straight return would cost more than a day ticket? Oh yes... because the modicum of research necessary was too much!

Remembering that some fares are on bustimes (albeit well hidden), it appears that in 2023, the day return was £17. Seems a little surprising they are "assuming" the price will have increased by ca. 1/3 in 18 months, even allowing for inflation.

 

[Starmill]

The country used to cope with VED and Fuel Duty being lower , they got raised substantially in the 90s with the justifcation being that increasing them will bring down pollution and reduce car use. Electric cars will elimnate pollution and the price premium they command will reduce car usage. Punishing EV drivers at excatly the same levels that ICE drivers where is not fair. Any future taxation that tries to justify itself off externalities needs to actually quantify them. The externalities arent the same so the tax shouldnt be the same. Road fatalities is a common one thrown about, and they get less and less every year, and automated systems modern ones have will reduce this even further.


We are still very far from EVs being the majority, so we shouldnt be worrying about faffing around with the VED system too much, mabye look back in a decade. Lots of people, road pricing seems to be hobby horse for the sake of it.

It's not really a rise justified by externalities though is it?

It's a rise justified by widespread demands for more public spending. These demands are what a very, very large majority of the population wants. It will be the same with gambling, alcohol and tobacco.

 

[stuu]

There are stats on this. They do show walking has a high share of journeys- but accounts for only a couple of percent of distance travelled (as does cycling). It’s why active travel doesn’t have much impact on traffic levels.

It’s true that public transport plays a significant role only in and between large cities. But comparing UK to EU average, rail is on the high side, bus on the low side. Accepting these are whole country averages, it does not suggest massive scope for modal shift in UK - may couple of percentage points?

Distance travelled is in many senses irrelevant, total journeys are what matters. Active travel (walking/cycling), accounts for about 30% of all journeys, and given most (71%) of journeys are under 5 miles, that clearly makes a big difference compared to if all those journeys were done by car.

Passenger km splits are massively skewed in favour of cars for the simple reason that cars are the sensible way to make those journeys, but it's the wrong metric to use

 

[Andyh82]

The article has been discussed over the last few days.

The assumption is rife - a Daytripper Plus (valid on Coastliner) is only £22, so why would they think that a straight return would cost more than a day ticket? Oh yes... because the modicum of research necessary was too much!

Remembering that some fares are on bustimes (albeit well hidden), it appears that in 2023, the day return was £17. Seems a little surprising they are "assuming" the price will have increased by ca. 1/3 in 18 months, even allowing for inflation.

To be fair, inflating fares in news stories is pretty common across both sides of the political debate

I recall when Andy Burnham was trying to get his Bee Network off the ground, you’d have stories of epic journeys across Greater Manchester costing a fortune, all due to the separate bus companies involved. The multi operator ticket that already existed and was cheaper than paying for umpteen singles was never mentioned.

 

[158756]

The article has been discussed over the last few days.

The assumption is rife - a Daytripper Plus (valid on Coastliner) is only £22, so why would they think that a straight return would cost more than a day ticket? Oh yes... because the modicum of research necessary was too much!

Remembering that some fares are on bustimes (albeit well hidden), it appears that in 2023, the day return was £17. Seems a little surprising they are "assuming" the price will have increased by ca. 1/3 in 18 months, even allowing for inflation.

£22 to £25 at the next fare rise doesn't seem that unlikely, bearing in mind high inflation in the bus industry and that if/when the cap ends operators are going to have to raise money from somewhere. And it's not uncommon for a return, or even a single, to be priced the same as a day ticket.

Going back to earlier posts in this thread, singles the same price as a day ticket do unfairly penalise single journeys. I would like to see the research on how much money such high single fares raise vs how many people don't use the bus because it's so expensive.

 

[Budge1980]

I would argue fares are quite low in the priority order to decide if you will use the bus. If you have a choice
I.e. Choice car vs bus.
Question 1: can I only afford to travel by public transport and not car or alternatively, can I drive?
2 Does a bus go from near where I live to where I’ve got to get to I.e. work.
3 Does the bus run at a reasonable frequency when I most want to use it.
4. does it run in the evenings and on Sundays for the Limited times I’ll want to use it then ? Etc.

Fares hasn’t even come into it yet.£2 or £20, let alone if the buses on your route look like they should be in a museum. Also i would argue too many no shows and breakdowns would come above the question of fare too, especially on lower frequency routes.

If the answer to any of those means you have to have a car you buy a car. The question of the cost of a fare only comes next time you need to make that choice, maybe in 3-15 years time.

Because once you‘ve got a car, why use the bus- unless you are an enthusiast on here. If you have the car, with all the initial cost to buy and for insurance etc, to use a bus means you are paying twice to travel, the bus being the more inconvenient option. Sure there is the cost of parking but even in towns and cities which are expensive to do so there are often “hidden” car parks that are cheaper, you just need to investigate a bit.

I accept a route like the X51 Walsall to Birmingham will be used by people who at some of the stops commute on bus to work and use their car at all other times but their income means convenience (including 1-4 above) trumps fares

Of course, if you have chosen the bus option, if the answer to any of those changes, you get a car And then only after that does the actual increase in fare matter. In the examples above, a £20 return fare means answer will be car almost everytime. £4 return, the bus wins, if it runs when needed.

 

[Starmill]

£22 to £25 at the next fare rise doesn't seem that unlikely, bearing in mind high inflation in the bus industry and that if/when the cap ends operators are going to have to raise money from somewhere. And it's not uncommon for a return, or even a single, to be priced the same as a day ticket.

Going back to earlier posts in this thread, singles the same price as a day ticket do unfairly penalise single journeys. I would like to see the research on how much money such high single fares raise vs how many people don't use the bus because it's so expensive.

I believe the period returns (Leeds - Whitby etc) were indeed already around £32. And that's just one journey each way.

 

[yorksrob]

32 Quid feels about right for the return train trip from Leeds to Whitby. Who wants to pay that much to sit on a bus for hours on end !

 

[Baxenden Bank]

32 Quid feels about right for the return train trip from Leeds to Whitby. Who wants to pay that much to sit on a bus for hours on end !

Indeed, I wouldn't particularly want to do that length of trip for £2 single either. If they paid me £32 to travel I still don't think I'd want to!

I used to make regular journeys on the Hanley - Sheffield route, which was around the two hours mark, when it was operated by a coach specification vehicle. Doing it now on a bus specification vehicle would be unbearable. Similarly the Hanley - Shrewsbury route which is also around the two hour mark, tolerable on the fast-running country sections.

 

[Starmill]

Train tickets between Leeds and Whitby are effectively priced at a floor set by the cost of Leeds - Darlington and Leeds - Middlesbrough.

 

[stevieinselby]

I believe the period returns (Leeds - Whitby etc) were indeed already around £32. And that's just one journey each way.

Period tickets on Coastliner were barely any cheaper than buying two singles, only about £2 less – which is not much at all on a fare like that, although it is still better than 99% of operators offer! It's also significantly less than the train fare, which is about £55 for an off-peak return, or nearly £80 for an anytime return.

But let's not get carried away with routes like Coastliner that operate right at the extremes. The overwhelming majority of tickets that people buy will be less than £10 for a day return.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Period tickets on Coastliner were barely any cheaper than buying two singles, only about £2 less – which is not much at all on a fare like that, although it is still better than 99% of operators offer! It's also significantly less than the train fare, which is about £55 for an off-peak return, or nearly £80 for an anytime return.

But let's not get carried away with routes like Coastliner that operate right at the extremes. The overwhelming majority of tickets that people buy will be less than £10 for a day return.

Even at the £2 fare I often find myself bumping up against the day ticket price. In Lancashire, more than four individual journeys on Transdev (various companies) and a day ticket offers better value. Baxenden - Accrington - Burnley - general hospital and back = £12 instead of £8. In Staffordshire more than three journeys and 'The Knot' ticket at £7 is cheaper. An even greater saving within The Potteries where the BSIP reduced day ticket was £3.50 so cheaper than two £2 singles. The lattter recently increased to £4.80 so still cheaper than three £2 singles.

It would be interesting to know just where the 'sweet-spot' for the £2 ticket lies - long single journeys or simple out and back journeys by infrequent users. Anything more complex and a multiple of £2 tickets ceases to be the best value option.

 

[joieman]

It would be interesting to know just where the 'sweet-spot' for the £2 ticket lies - long single journeys or simple out and back journeys by infrequent users. Anything more complex and a multiple of £2 tickets ceases to be the best value option.

Unless, that is, you're travelling with multiple operators in an area without multi-operator tickets.

 

[Merle Haggard]

What hasn't been mentioned so far (I think) is that the £2 fare softened the steep step (down) at 09.30 (usually) for ENCTS pass holders. Personally, and although I don't use my pass that much, I no longer hang on until 09.30 before travelling.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, I wouldn't particularly want to do that length of trip for £2 single either. If they paid me £32 to travel I still don't think I'd want to!

I used to make regular journeys on the Hanley - Sheffield route, which was around the two hours mark, when it was operated by a coach specification vehicle. Doing it now on a bus specification vehicle would be unbearable. Similarly the Hanley - Shrewsbury route which is also around the two hour mark, tolerable on the fast-running country sections.

Quite. Thats the sort of journey the railway should be lapping up, but as we're obsessed with a commercial railway......

Train tickets between Leeds and Whitby are effectively priced at a floor set by the cost of Leeds - Darlington and Leeds - Middlesbrough.

Still rubbish for through journeys, unfortunately.

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V

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Quite. Thats the sort of journey the railway should be lapping up, but as we're obsessed with a commercial railway......

Dunno which journey you're on about but the X23 has disappeared. In terms of the 64 (Shrewsbury to Hanley), it isn't the end to end flows that are important; it's the local flows that justify its existence, especially it being the only significant link to Market Drayton.

 

[Richard Scott]

How much is tire dust an actual problem though? I always hear this brought up , but how many people actually get impacted healthwise by it?
If it's only say 5% the impact of exhaust pollution , it wouldnt make sense for the penalty for creating it to be the same one as a petrol car would get for belching many more fumes

Particulates from exhausts pretty low now, tyres are definitely an issue, as are brakes, and doubt as low as 5% of exhaust emissions.
Also ethics of where materials for EV batteries come from but probably drifting now and maybe one for another thread?

 

[Andyh82]

I had a ride round trentbartonland yesterday and after a succession of £2 fares the fare charged on the Red Arrow seemed like an absolute fortune

£6.30 for a single on a journey that is about 35 minutes

Whereas before the fare cap, I imagine this would have been normal, and fares on all the other nearby services would have been around that amount

 

[Meerkat]

Particulates from exhausts pretty low now, tyres are definitely an issue, as are brakes,

Brakes are obviously much less of an issue on an EV

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that the Red Arrow isn't in the scheme when similar Stagecoach and Arriva express routes around Milton Keynes are.

 

[Richard Scott]

Brakes are obviously much less of an issue on an EV

They are but at speeds in towns probably not much difference, very little regeneration at low speeds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2024 ==

Interesting that the Red Arrow isn't in the scheme when similar Stagecoach and Arriva express routes around Milton Keynes are.

I must be behind the times, Red Arrow routes that I knew were Leyland Nationals in London. Obviously not what's being referred to here! Not being local to the area what is Red Arrow referring to here?