Public perception of railways

[dk1]

It’s ironic that several posters contributing to this thread also claim to have given up using the railway! As someone who passionately wants the industry to succeed, I’d rather the railway focuses on the wants and needs of the increasing number of people who do use it, albeit that might not always take it in the direction favoured by many on this forum.

I tend to take statements like that with a pinch of salt.

 

[yorksrob]

I’d rather the railway focuses on the wants and needs of the increasing number of people who do use it, albeit that might not always take it in the direction favoured by many on this forum.

If only it did, rather than focussing on the wants and needs of the DfT and treasury, as it does now.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

If only it did, rather than focussing on the wants and needs of the DfT and treasury, as it does now.

That's the big issue that needs solving but there are 2 large issues that need solving to change perception.

1. Overcrowded services - everyone is uncomfortable on the train

2. When things go wrong - they go spectacularly wrong and the mitigation put on place generally are inadequate as there is the perception and stress of trying to get home or to your destination. Not very pleasant being stuck at a station and trying to work out it there is a way home.

 

[43096]

If only it did, rather than focussing on the wants and needs of the DfT and treasury, as it does now.

Given that the Treasury (and by extension, all taxpayers) is the biggest contributor to the cost of the railway, it is entirely reasonable that it gets a big say.

That said, the DfT element needs sorting out. DfT is massively over-staffed as it “man marks” the TOCs. Far better to provide the railway with a set of outputs required with an agreed level of funding and the railway gets on with it - it is to be hoped this is where GBR gets to.

 

[yorksrob]

That's the big issue that needs solving but there are 2 large issues that need solving to change perception.

1. Overcrowded services - everyone is uncomfortable on the train

2. When things go wrong - they go spectacularly wrong and the mitigation put on place generally are inadequate as there is the perception and stress of trying to get home or to your destination. Not very pleasant being stuck at a station and trying to work out it there is a way home.

In the case of the first, it's the DfT/Treasury that have been curtailing electrification and scrapping trains without replacement.

With the second, DfT could direct how train companies operate under these circumstances, however this doesn't seem to be much of a priority to them.

Given that the Treasury (and by extension, all taxpayers) is the biggest contributor to the cost of the railway, it is entirely reasonable that it gets a big say.

That said, the DfT element needs sorting out. DfT is massively over-staffed as it “man marks” the TOCs. Far better to provide the railway with a set of outputs required with an agreed level of funding and the railway gets on with it - it is to be hoped this is where GBR gets to.

A "say", yes. A death grip, no.

Those outputs you speak of need to reflect passenger needs and wants.

I don't recall any sense of the travelling public wanting or needing LNER's dodgy fares "trial" or rock hard seats, for example, yet this is what we get peddled.

 

[DarloRich]

Surely the biggest perception issue is that the railways are always on strike and that drivers, guards and staff get paid a fortune for doing bot all. Greedy union scum robbing pensioners and all that.

The other is the lack of a robust timetable. In many areas the time given is the earliest possible time a train will appear rather than a promise. On top of that are staff shortages and stock failures meaning the service is seen as unreliable.

Generally my experience too! I suspect the general (hugely negative) perception on here is not at all representative of “normal” users.

agreed - I am out an about on the train all the time, more than many here I suspect. I have never, once, had a problem. Why? Well I know how to behave in public, know how to speak to people etc.

I have got on the wrong train with the wrong ticket more often than I should but by speaking to the guard sensibly have been able to sort something out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

I don't recall any sense of the travelling public wanting or needing LNER's dodgy fares "trial"

but, respectfully, you did. You and others wanted "simplification". You got that. What you don't like is how the simplification has been applied!

 

[mdewell]

Last year I was reading something about poor rail journeys and naturally some of my own experiences came to mind. Like most people I probably remember a bad journey more that a good one, so decided to start keeping a log of my rail trips. I am just an occasional user these days so not many trips since I started the log back in July 2023, but . . . it’s not good reading!

Without detailing every trip, the rough statistics are. . .

10 journeys (returns count as 2)
3 were significantly delayed (over 1 hour – full delay repay claimed and received)
1 was a short delay (15 mins late arrival)
1 was an early arrival home (ironically due to a late running train meaning we were able to catch that one rather than having to wait 25 min for the following one)

So. . . 40% of journeys delayed (Or. . . if we consider them as return journeys, 4 out of 5 trips had significant delays in at least 1 direction).

For context, all journeys started or finished at Ruabon, and in almost every case it was Transport for Wales that had the delays.

 

[Fudgie]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but Andy Burnham is on Twitter saying he's very unhappy with Northern in reply to someone suffering repeated cancellations.

x.com

twitter.com

"This level of service can’t continue,
@northernassist

This is to give you notice that I will be calling an urgent meeting of the Rail North Committee to require an urgent plan to restore an acceptable level of service"

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don’t use ‘X’ myself but clearly well-known and articulate politicians such as Andy Burnham do a lot to influence and mould perceptions amongst the wider population, even non-users of rail.

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t use ‘X’ myself but clearly well-known and articulate politicians such as Andy Burnham do a lot to influence and mould perceptions amongst the wider population, even non-users of rail.

Indeed - but one should also note his desire to take charge of ALL rail services in his mayoral area. He therefore does not like Northern or Avanti or TPE. Not without cause clearly but one should also note the political lens.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but Andy Burnham is on Twitter saying he's very unhappy with Northern in reply to someone suffering repeated cancellations.

x.com

twitter.com

I'm not surprised. The quality of service offered by Northern is appalling. The DfT issued Northern with a breach of contract notice in July for the unacceptable level of at-fault cancellations.

 

[Bald Rick]

1. Overcrowded services - everyone is uncomfortable on the train

everyone?

 

[Horizon22]

Surely the biggest perception issue is that the railways are always on strike and that drivers, guards and staff get paid a fortune for doing bot all. Greedy union scum robbing pensioners and all that.

The latter is obviously only a very new “argument”.

As I said up thread, the media loves to attack the railways (as they often do other sectors) as an easy punchbag and only things that go wrong (HS2 funding, strikes, major disruption) are in the mainstream media.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

I'm not surprised. The quality of service offered by Northern is appalling. The DfT issued Northern with a breach of contract notice in July for the unacceptable level of at-fault cancellations.

But Northern is basically a DfT run service so really this is pointless posturing (and cynically I would say related to the election). And this is half the problem with the railway being fragmented that leads to many of the problems some users suggest.

 

[DarloRich]

The latter is obviously only a very new “argument”.

Indeed, but it is one that has been increasingly expressed by people I know. Even by sensible people rather than whoppers! Most of these people are rare railway users - those that use the trains more often will refer to reliability and timetable resilience ( obviously not in those terms) more than greedy union types.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sadly we don't do integrated transport in the UK, but this problem is a much wider issue than the rail industry itself

It's one that's getting worse with the increasing push towards Advance tickets.

15 years ago I was heading from Newcastle to catch a flight from Stansted. Due to my Stagecoach bus breaking down I missed my train (despite leaving plenty of time) and my advance ticket was worthless. It cost me an extra £150 for two of us to get to Stansted and neither Stagecoach nor NXEC (as was) gave a toss. At least they still did off-peak tickets then. Now it'd be more like £200 each.

The year after? I drove. Now? I'd drive every single time.

 

[PauloDavesi]

For many people its a drip by drip build up of bad experiences that give a negative view. You can only have your plans ruined by delayed or cancelled trains, or been subjected to dangerously over crowded conditions, so many times before you consider the alternative options for transport.
As most people have a car available to them, that is always a strong option, especially if you have flexible plans, need to be someone at a specific time or need to visit multiple destinations on a journey.

 

[GordonT]

Interesting to see a spoof advert in the previous issue of "Private Eye" for "Euston Station Rocket Roller Skates" Price £399.23.

Are you a regular user of one of Britain's biggest railway stations?
Worried about not getting to your train in the 30 seconds between the platform being announced and departure?
The "Euston Rocket Roller Skates" will zoom you to your platform in just 9.4 seconds and will blast anyone in your path out of the way!

 

[yorksrob]

but, respectfully, you did. You and others wanted "simplification". You got that. What you don't like is how the simplification has been applied!

The underlying reason so many people wanted "simplification" was because train fares were too expensive to begin with and you had to jump through so many hoops to get a sensible fare.

No one asked for simplification by making fares more expensive. It's pure perfidy for the Establishment to suggest otherwise.

Incidentally I tried to buy an off-peak period return from Nottingham to Norwich. I was quoted £89. No wonder the trains are a national embarrassment.

 

[Donny Dave]

The underlying reason so many people wanted "simplification" was because train fares were too expensive to begin with and you had to jump through so many hoops to get a sensible fare.

No one asked for simplification by making fares more expensive. It's pure perfidy for the Establishment to suggest otherwise.

I looked at fares to Selby from Doncaster and quickly got confused. The reason I checked was that I was considering going to a model railway open day, but trying to work out what was valid on which route proved to be headache inducing. In the end, I decided that I would be going to the model railway open day in Sheffield instead, as I can simply load my smart card with a 1 day bus, tram and train ticket quickly and easily.

If I, with the benefit of some knowledge and the resources of this forum struggle with what should be a straightforward journey, what hope does anyone who isn't clued up have?

The link shows all the ticket options for Doncaster to Selby.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[yorksrob]

I looked at fares to Selby from Doncaster and quickly got confused. The reason I checked was that I was considering going to a model railway open day, but trying to work out what was valid on which route proved to be headache inducing. In the end, I decided that I would be going to the model railway open day in Sheffield instead, as I can simply load my smart card with a 1 day bus, tram and train ticket quickly and easily.

If I, with the benefit of some knowledge and the resources of this forum struggle with what should be a straightforward journey, what hope does anyone who isn't clued up have?

The link shows all the ticket options for Doncaster to Selby.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

There ought to at least be a cheap day return for such a journey.

 

[DarloRich]

No one asked for simplification by making fares more expensive.

There is, of course, a difference between simplification and making fares cheaper. I maintain the request for simplification was delivered. The desired outcome was not!

The link shows all the ticket options for Doncaster to Selby.

Hardly a surprise it is confusing using that tool! MOST people would go on NRE and find a £9.60 any time return within about 3 seconds.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The underlying reason so many people wanted "simplification" was because train fares were too expensive to begin with and you had to jump through so many hoops to get a sensible fare.

No one asked for simplification by making fares more expensive. It's pure perfidy for the Establishment to suggest otherwise.

Incidentally I tried to buy an off-peak period return from Nottingham to Norwich. I was quoted £89. No wonder the trains are a national embarrassment.

Well yes. The likes of you and I have worked out you can save around £25 on that fare by splitting at Peterborough but the chances are most non-rail enthusiasts would go no further than thinking "No, that's way too much, I'll drive instead".

 

[DarloRich]

No wonder the trains are a national embarrassment.

and yet they are still full! Something doesn't quite add up. Perception is poor yet demand is high at times

 

[yorksrob]

and yet they are still full! Something doesn't quite add up. Perception is poor yet demand is high at times

Because they're the primary long distance form of public transport. You're argument is a bit like saying "well the tap water's dirty and full of bugs, yet people still seem to need to use it, even though other beverages are available."

Also worth noting that the LNER "trial" only replaces one fare type with another with a lot more restrictions, so it's not a simplification, it's a complication.

 

[DarloRich]

Also worth noting that the LNER "trial" only replaces one fare type with another with a lot more restrictions, so it's not a simplification, it's a complication.

it is a simplification from a non expert point of view. LNER have delivered the requested simplification. You search on LNER for tickets and get three options that look simple to understand. I KNOW you don't agree but customers seem happy with the clarity ( if not, perhaps, the price!) perhaps because the perception ( erroneous?) previously was that fares were "complicated"

( based on talking to people I know who are not regular train users - none of them have said "god that LNER stuff is confusing" - I accept that is entirely anecdotal btw)

Because they're the primary long distance form of public transport. You're argument is a bit like saying "well the tap water's dirty and full of bugs, yet people still seem to need to use it, even though other beverages are available."

There is clearly a poor perception issue with railways and areas ripe for improvement. Despite that and the high fares many trains are still full. People are still choosing to travel by train when they could drive. Why are they doing that?

 

[yorksrob]

it is a simplification from a non expert point of view. LNER have delivered the requested simplification. You search on LNER for tickets and get three options that look simple to understand. I KNOW you don't agree but customers seem happy with the clarity ( if not, perhaps, the price!) perhaps because the perception ( erroneous?) previously was that fares were "complicated"

( based on talking to people I know who are not regular train users - none of them have said "god that LNER stuff is confusing" - I accept that is entirely anecdotal btw)


There is clearly a poor perception issue with railways and areas ripe for improvement. Despite that and the high fares many trains are still full. People are still choosing to travel by train when they could drive. Why are they doing that?

You had three options that were simple to understand previously, so its not a simplification.

Did you have lots of people coming up to you before the dodgy "trial" saying "God, that LNER stuff is confusing" ?

As to the second part of the question the answer is because they're relatively wealthy or don't have access to a car. Also because the trains are often short to begin with.

 

[DarloRich]

Did you have lots of people coming up to you before the dodgy "trial" saying "God, that LNER stuff is confusing" ?

well, I haven't had to sort out my mum and her friends train tickets to Edinburgh or Glasgow for a couple of months..............

( anecdotal, of course, but she often complained that she found it hard to buy the "right" ticket for her regular journeys to Scotland or York/Newcastle as she found the options confusing. Now she just buys the LNER tickets because it is much easier to understand - she says.

AND she has stopped using trainline thankfully!)

You had three options that were simple to understand previously, so its not a simplification.

I know you wont agree on this so I wont press further but I maintain that simplification does not mean cheaper.

 

[Horizon22]

Indeed, but it is one that has been increasingly expressed by people I know. Even by sensible people rather than whoppers! Most of these people are rare railway users - those that use the trains more often will refer to reliability and timetable resilience ( obviously not in those terms) more than greedy union types.

It is again of course who the media has presented to them and the fact that they were both headline issues within a few weeks of each other so therefore A+B=C whereas anyone sensible knows the budget doesn't work like that.

Not to mention it was buried somewhere deep in most articles - if at all - it was the first pay rise for many rail staff in over 4 years.

 

[yorksrob]

I know you wont agree on this so I wont press further but I maintain that simplification does not mean cheaper.

That's as maybe, but with the travelling public it's all about the fares. The public have never been interested in "simplification" except as a means to finding decent value fares.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You and others wanted "simplification". You got that. What you don't like is how the simplification has been applied!

What LNER are now offering is not more simple than what was offered previously. If anything it is more complicated.

I do get your underlying point though: the ultimate simplification would be to abolish everything bar the Anytime ticket, but I'm not sure many of us would want that.