Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Dent]

Because the word cap is meaningless if the cap is far higher than a typical single fare would be anyway (certainly within urban areas). It's like announcing that there'll be a £1000 cap on rail fares when the highest rail fare is nowhere near that amount!

First of all, is £3 actually "far higher" than fares "typically" would be?

Secondly, even if it were the cap would still be, by definition, a cap.

It's basic maths - if you put the standard bus single fare up from £2 to £3 that's a fare rise of 50%!

I don't think anyone is disputing that £3 is 50% higher than £2. What is being disputed is your spurious claim that a cap of £3 is somehow not a cap.

Also you are contradicting yourself if you are claiming both that £3 is "far more" than a "typical" fare and that increasing the cap from £2 to £3 would be a 50% increase in fares. If £3 really is "far more" than a "typical" fare then a change from £2 to the "typical" fare would be far less than a 50% rise. That is, to use your own words, basic maths.

 

[Deerfold]

They will up the metro savers to 5.50

Possibly, but this year's 50p increase was the first for 3 years, with the change before that being a drop of £1.50.

This year's increase is avoidable by buying packs of 10 at £45.

 

[K4016td]

Though London is likely to have a fare rise for 2025.

But would it be as steep as this one? Most likely they will just raise it to £2 and that's it.

 

[778]

Did the tories bring in the bus cap to cause problems for labour? When they introduced it last year they would have known they were going to lose the election and it would make labour unpopular if they had to get rid of it.

 

[ChrisC]

But would it be as steep as this one? Most likely they will just raise it to £2 and that's it.

The big advantage of London bus fares is that with the hopper fare you can use more than one bus within an hour without having to pay an additional fare.

 

[Deerfold]

But would it be as steep as this one? Most likely they will just raise it to £2 and that's it.

That's enough that £3 doesn't look like twice that.

 

[JamesT]

Did the tories bring in the bus cap to cause problems for labour? When they introduced it last year they would have known they were going to lose the election and it would make labour unpopular if they had to get rid of it.

It was introduced in 2022. I very much doubt they were thinking that far ahead. The cost of the bus fare cap is relatively small compared to the energy bill subsidies and were seen as helping the poorer end of the population.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It was introduced in 2022. I very much doubt they were thinking that far ahead. The cost of the bus fare cap is relatively small compared to the energy bill subsidies and were seen as helping the poorer end of the population.

Wasn't it more to try to increase the number of passengers post covid than specifically being aimed at helping people?

 

[JamesT]

Wasn't it more to try to increase the number of passengers post covid than specifically being aimed at helping people?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/2-bus-fare-cap-across-england-to-save-passengers-money is the announcement of the cap:

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said:

Buses are by far and away the most used form of public transport, so ensuring that almost all bus journeys are no more than £2 will assist passengers over the winter months and provide direct help to thousands of households across the country.

This £60 million boost will mean everyone can affordably get to work, education, the shops and doctor’s appointments.

We know people will be feeling the pressure of rising costs this winter, and so we have been working hard this summer to provide practical concrete help that will lower daily expenditure.

I think there were different schemes around post-Covid recovery, but the focus of the cap was very much on cost of living.

 

[Statto]

Wasn't it more to try to increase the number of passengers post covid than specifically being aimed at helping people?

Cost of living was a major factor in the cap, originally it was supposed to be a 3 month trial, but ended up being kept indefinitely.

I'm ok with the fare cap going up to £3, £2 was unsustainable long term, plus with reports the cap was being scrapped altogether would have meant fares going way past £3, even over £5 in some areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wasn't it more to try to increase the number of passengers post covid than specifically being aimed at helping people?

No - it was specifically aimed to help with the cost of living crisis, especially as car drivers had a 5p/litre cut in fuel duty

 

[LUYMun]

Given that two singles will make up £6 next year, I can only imagine numerous scenarios where passengers pay more for this rather than get a return ticket costing less than £6. That would mean bus operators would face the task of emphasising their better value return or day tickets rather than paying for a single.

 

[Goldfish62]

Given that two singles will make up £6 next year, I can only imagine numerous scenarios where passengers pay more for this rather than get a return ticket costing less than £6. That would mean bus operators would face the task of emphasising their better value return or day tickets rather than paying for a single.

A lot of bus operators have highlighted the difficulty of promoting their own multi-journey and period products due to the £2 fare. The increase will make this easier.

 

[Malaxa]

No - it was specifically aimed to help with the cost of living crisis, especially as car drivers had a 5p/litre cut in fuel duty

No - it was specifically aimed to help with the cost of living crisis, especially as car drivers had a 5p/litre cut in fuel duty

And even when it went back up, how long has this fixed cost remained unchanged? 12 years no increase against say a 40 per cent increase in prices .... What's not to like for the rich car owner who would never set foot upon a bus, the default choice for working people including toolmakers?

 

[Goldfish62]

And even when it went back up, how long has this fixed cost remained unchanged? 12 years no increase against say a 40 per cent increase in prices .... What's not to like for the rich car owner who would never set foot upon a bus, the default choice for working people including toolmakers?

Yep. It's a year-on-year subsidy which incentives driving.

If the current government don't increase it in Wednesday then they're no more serious about modal shift away from the private car than the previous government.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Because the word cap is meaningless if the cap is far higher than a typical single fare would be anyway (certainly within urban areas).

Before the cap the single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of just over three miles, was £3.80.

So it's still a cap, even in urban areas.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Before the cap the single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of just over three miles, was £3.80.

So it's still a cap, even in urban areas.

Also consider inflation.
A single in Bristol was £2.50 (bought on board) in 2019, that would be more than £3 in today's money.
I think that will actually be a big challenge when the cap is eventually removed completely (which is kind of had to be eventually).

 

[Andy Pacer]

It's interesting that Keir Starmer said (along the lines of) the fare cap being particularly important for those in rural areas who rely on public transport. He's missed the point there, what people in rural areas need is more buses, not a fare cap.

 

[Merle Haggard]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/2-bus-fare-cap-across-england-to-save-passengers-money is the announcement of the cap:

I think there were different schemes around post-Covid recovery, but the focus of the cap was very much on cost of living.

In the link, Grant Chapps stated that the cost was £60,000,000 - presumably for a year. It's hard to calculate what saving is made in this by increasing to £3 - some fares will presumably no longer need a subsidy - but even £60 million seems small in the scale of things.
By way of comparison with rail the existing main building at Northampton station was replaced by a new one on a basically vacant site. Coincidentally Network Rail charged the same amount - £60 million (publicly quoted because Northampton property tax payers stumped up half that cost). Or, put it another way, the property taxpayers' contribution to the cost of their new station building could have funded £2 bus travel for half the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that Keir Starmer said (along the lines of) the fare cap being particularly important for those in rural areas who rely on public transport. He's missed the point there, what people in rural areas need is more buses, not a fare cap.

One thing I think they do urgently need to do is revisit Council Tax capping and the block grant, as it's these that have caused the need for local authorities to tighten the belt and thus for rural bus services to be cut heavily. Councils need to be funded properly to be effective. Local democracy takes care of whether Council Tax rates are reasonable or not given the services package.

 

[HSTEd]

I think it is likely that there will be no cap on Council Tax rises moving forward - it allows the government to withdraw grant funding and for councils to get punished for it.

Increase in bus fares isn't going to do much for encouraging growth of buses as a method of mass transport, but we shall have to see what happens.

 

[MikeHoward940]

Bus companies are worrief that Labour will scrap the cap. I honestly think they should and make fares more distance based again. But still keep prices cheap. Without the cap a return ticket from Windsor to Maidenhead would cost £7.90. Could Labour instead finance a 50% or higher reduction of ticket prices if they are let’s say higher than £1? Because anything under £1 would most likely be a short hop fare and we shouldn’t encourage shorts hops over walking.

 

[Scotrail88]

all the talk of the price to customer is fair and accurate - but will reimbursement / subsidy to operators change as that will be where the impact will be felt

 

[Andy Pacer]

all the talk of the price to customer is fair and accurate - but will reimbursement / subsidy to operators change as that will be where the impact will be felt

I'd imagine from experience there will be some frantic number crunching going on by operators right now.

 

[blueberry11]

I think the reason for going to £3 and not say £2.50 is because it was initially supposed to be £2 until 31 December 2023, then £2.50 until 31 December 2024 before stating that the £2 fare will remain for the whole of 2024 alongside 2023.

 

[gc4946]

£3 cap won't mean all buses outside London or Greater Manchester start charging that as a flat fare. It allows flex for shorter distance urban fares up to about 4 or 5 miles.
It could mean incentives for greater use of tap and cap and a "hopper" facility. £3 will still be a great price for a Coastliner Leeds-York single fare and beyond as far as Whitby and Scarborough.

 

[Andy Pacer]

£3 cap won't mean all buses outside London or Greater Manchester start charging that as a flat fare. It allows flex for shorter distance urban fares up to about 4 or 5 miles.

Indeed - as per currently it is a "cap" as the title suggests.

 

[JamesT]

I'd imagine from experience there will be some frantic number crunching going on by operators right now.

AIUI the current system works by the government offering the operator a lump sum based on what they believe the loss in revenue from only being able to collect the capped fare versus the usual fare is. Presumably it would be the DfT doing the calculation again but substituting £3 for £2.

 

[Andy Pacer]

AIUI the current system works by the government offering the operator a lump sum based on what they believe the loss in revenue from only being able to collect the capped fare versus the usual fare is. Presumably it would be the DfT doing the calculation again but substituting £3 for £2.

That's right, but the increased on bus revenue will be calculated for budgeting etc.

 

[778]

Cost of living was a major factor in the cap, originally it was supposed to be a 3 month trial, but ended up being kept indefinitely.

I'm ok with the fare cap going up to £3, £2 was unsustainable long term, plus with reports the cap was being scrapped altogether would have meant fares going way past £3, even over £5 in some areas.

Is it really unsustainable though? I don't think keeping the £2 bus cap would cause the economy to collapse, and are there other things that the government could cut that would impact less people?