Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Tetchytyke]

If you work a five day week and commute by bus Labour have just put up your commuting costs by £10 a week.

The single from Queensbury to Halifax was £3.80 in 2019, now it is going to be £3 from January.

So they've actually saved honest hard working people £1.60 a day. Labour have cut your commuting costs by £8 a week.

I don't think they brought it in to cause problems for Labour

No, but it was an uncosted and unfunded pre-election bribe.

And not the first one when it comes to the buses. ENCTS was an uncosted and unfunded pre-election bribe brought in by Gordon Brown and look at the havoc that that particular piece of ill-thought-out nonsense has wrought.

It's very poor that a Tory government thought several hundred million pounds in extra annual bus subsidy was good value but a Labour one is apparently thinking it won't be.

It very much depends on what the scheme has achieved. If it's brought new people on to the bus and if it has encouraged proper and persistent modal shift then it is very good value. If it's just reduced fares for people who would have used the bus anyway then it's of more limited benefit.

Personally I'd like to see more money go into the BSIP scheme rather than be spent on temporary fare reductions. Fares are only one part of why people will be attracted to the bus.

 

[Teapot42]

Did operators have to publish 'shadow' fares during the cap period? It will be interesting to see how much they rose during this period and whether operators will increase these fares between now and 1st January to make the word 'cap' as meaningless as it is now in most areas.

I've commented in the past that even a 2-3 stop ride in Chesterfield with Stagecoach is capped currently. I wonder if we'll actually see sub-£3 fares, not that it will make much difference as I agree with the sentiment of many others - most will move from buying singles to buying a day ticket for a smaller increase.

I'm hoping that this increase will come with some news on extended / enhanced BSIP funding, as lack of or poor frequency of services is more of an issue to many than the actual cost.

 

[8ace]

B&H Buses have welcomed the news:

Government will guarantee a £3 fare cap until the end of 2025​

Today Tue 29th Oct 2024

The Prime Minister has announced that the government will guarantee a £3 fare cap until the end of 2025. The new scheme will replace the £2 fare cap that ends on the 31st December 2024 which was introduced under the previous government to help with the cost of living.
Our buses play an important role in connecting our communities, supporting workplaces, and enabling economic growth. We are pleased to hear in the pre-budget announcement that the scheme will continue under the new government.

Government will guarantee a £3 fare cap until the end of 2025 - Brighton & Hove Buses

 

[overthewater]

Far too many people are fixated on these single fares and If I was a bus company I would start a campaign now highlighting the outstanding good valued weekly and monthly tickets available to everyone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l99xz719

Joshua Anderton is a second year student at Lancaster University who relies on buses to get to his lectures. “I find the bus fare cap increase an absolutely awful idea,” he said.
“I spend a minimum of £4 a day on bus tickets, sometimes more when I have to commute multiple times in a day. He added that the prices are "only made worse by the fact that return tickets have been removed".
Joshua says he’ll now have less money to spend on food and will avoid some social events.

But if you look at the student tickets for his area he actually pay more via the £2 single fares. I would love to know if most of the £2 fares are only being taken up by new passengers?

 

[Howardh]

Before the cap, my single bus journey into town was £2.40; if adjusted for inflation it would now be not far short of £3 for the just under 2 miles trip. The benefits of the cap are, obviously, for those travelling a longer distance. But the negatives are £3 is a lot for, say, three or four stops, just more than walking distance.

£2 was never going to stay; but the increase should be tempered by (a) short cheaper tickets and (b) full day/week passes; so a day pass should be less than two singles. How many areas do not offer a day pass or daily cap?

 

[Bertie the bus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l99xz719

But if you look at the student tickets for his area he actually pay more via the £2 single fares. I would love to know if most of the £2 fares are only being taken up by new passengers?

Poor thing because obviously everybody else should be paying for his travel so he can spend his own money on social events. Has he never heard of a push bike?

 

[8ace]

Far too many people are fixated on these single fares and If I was a bus company I would start a campaign now highlighting the outstanding good valued weekly and monthly tickets available to everyone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l99xz719

But if you look at the student tickets for his area he actually pay more via the £2 single fares. I would love to know if most of the £2 fares are only being taken up by new passengers?

One would hope being a university student he would at least have a modicum of intelligence to work out the cheapest ticket for his needs

 

[Teapot42]

Far too many people are fixated on these single fares and If I was a bus company I would start a campaign now highlighting the outstanding good valued weekly and monthly tickets available to everyone.

Bus travel isn't a one-size-fits-all market though.

Since the cap came in we've occasionally walked in to town and caught the bus back rather than driving. A weekly ticket wouldn't help there, and car parking prices haven't jumped 50%.

Similarly, there are no cross-border (*) multi-operator tickets for our area, so being able to jump on another operator service for £2 was a bonus.

While there are still a decent number of folk who commute daily, that number dropped considerably in the pandemic and operators (and government) haven't done much to address this. Stagecoach did introduce a bundle of day tickets but that disappeared with as little fan-fare as the introduction had.

(*) The Derbyshire Wayfarer is valid in to Sheffield, but not within South Yorkshire, so if your destination isn't the city centre then it's not much use.

 

[stevieinselby]

Out of interest how many areas of the England do you think offered "typical single" fares under £3 before the cap, presumably short distance only? How many would now under an un-capped scenario?

In 2022 many single fares in Greater Manchester for 3-10 mile journeys were about £5. I'd say that we're common across England. There were a few outliers like NXWM but of course in the case of Greater Manchester and Greater London fares etc the existing £2 cap for England didn't actually apply anyway.

I know that First York still has short distance single fares for £1.50.
I couldn't tell you how many other operators had similar short-distance fares, but I would guess most would have had some fares below £3 single.
I can imagine bus companies will be keen to show passengers that they are not taking advantage of the situation by raising fares up to the cap if they would previously have been below. Journeys of 3 miles or more are not short journeys and so I would expect them to be at least £3 without the cap in many cases.

Did operators have to publish 'shadow' fares during the cap period? It will be interesting to see how much they rose during this period and whether operators will increase these fares between now and 1st January to make the word 'cap' as meaningless as it is now in most areas.

I always assumed they would, for calculating ENCTS rebates – I can't imagine that central government would have taken on those costs from local councils by having the rebates based on a £2 fare and the shortfall made up by grant funding.

 

[robbob700]

Did operators have to publish 'shadow' fares during the cap period? It will be interesting to see how much they rose during this period and whether operators will increase these fares between now and 1st January to make the word 'cap' as meaningless as it is now in most areas.

Brighton and Hove Buses still publish fare tables showing full fares. From 29th April 2024, these show city fares of £1.70, £2.70 and £3.20.
Currently they are only charging £1.70 and £2.00. Next year, I imagine they will be charging £1.70, £2.70 and £3.00 - so not all £2.00 fares will increase by 50%.
Also From 31st March 2024, Ipswich Buses charge town fares of £1.50 and £2.00, but a return of £3.70 (which is below the current fare cap of £4.00) so see no reason why these fares will increase in January.

 

[tram21]

Looking at Nottingham, which is widely regarded as one of the examples of best practice, a commercial operator not part of First, Arriva etc

They operated flat fares of £2.80 before the price cap, so realistically it might be £3 now already had the cap not existed, so the cap still works at £3

But if it went up to £4 in 2026 you’d hope NCT might revert back to their own pricing and have a flat fare of something like £3.40

The NCT single fare is £3 now without the cap, so it'll be £3 with or without the cap. Fares to the outer boundary will be capped at £3 though. For cities day tickets are almost always the best product, and NCT have specifically said they don't think the cap has had an impact on the increase in passenger numbers (passenger numbers have increased by quite a lot, but they don't think it's because of a small discount in single fares!)

 

[Richard Scott]

The single from Queensbury to Halifax was £3.80 in 2019, now it is going to be £3 from January.

So they've actually saved honest hard working people £1.60 a day. Labour have cut your commuting costs by £8 a week.

No they haven't, they didn't bring in the cap originally.

 

[Tetchytyke]

No they haven't, they didn't bring in the cap originally.

The Tories' cap had a hard end date of 31/12/2024.

So if Labour have brought in a new £3 cap from 01/01/2025, they're saving me £1.60 a day compared to the 2019 fares.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The Tories' cap had a hard end date of 31/12/2024.

So if Labour have brought in a new £3 cap from 01/01/2025, they're saving me £1.60 a day compared to the 2019 fares.

Are you a Labour Party spin doctor by any chance?

 

[joieman]

Far too many people are fixated on these single fares and If I was a bus company I would start a campaign now highlighting the outstanding good valued weekly and monthly tickets available to everyone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l99xz719

But if you look at the student tickets for his area he actually pay more via the £2 single fares. I would love to know if most of the £2 fares are only being taken up by new passengers?

Well, as I've said before, I know for a fact that if the idea is to drive people away from single fares, it certainly won't work for me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

ar too many people are fixated on these single fares and If I was a bus company I would start a campaign now highlighting the outstanding good valued weekly and monthly tickets available to everyone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l99xz719

Lancaster University is liberally plastered with adverts for the Unirider ticket which costs as little as £1.32 per day if you buy the annual pass.

You'd think Josh Anderton, who is in his second year of studying politics at Lancaster, might be slightly more aware of his surroundings and understand the value of a season ticket for the bus.

I wonder how the BBC found him?

Are you a Labour Party spin doctor by any chance?

No more than you're a Conservative Party one?

Putting in a fares cap at a limit below pre-Covid fares isn't "taxing working people".

 

[Starmill]

I know that First York still has short distance single fares for £1.50.
I couldn't tell you how many other operators had similar short-distance fares, but I would guess most would have had some fares below £3 single.
I can imagine bus companies will be keen to show passengers that they are not taking advantage of the situation by raising fares up to the cap if they would previously have been below. Journeys of 3 miles or more are not short journeys and so I would expect them to be at least £3 without the cap in many cases.

Sadly this is quite an idealistic view. The distinction between a cap of £3 on a single and a flat £3 single is not there as you would hope. In other words barely any journeys at all will be on offer for £2.99 and less.

Once 1 January rolls around I'll look at compiling a list of the operators who actually have some, and what journey you can use them on. When I have a free minute I'll open a new thread - and try to find the ones below £2 to start off with.

It very much depends on what the scheme has achieved. If it's brought new people on to the bus and if it has encouraged proper and persistent modal shift then it is very good value. If it's just reduced fares for people who would have used the bus anyway then it's of more limited benefit.

Personally I'd like to see more money go into the BSIP scheme rather than be spent on temporary fare reductions. Fares are only one part of why people will be attracted to the bus.

I'd totally agree with you - if Starmer and Reeves had promised to keep the money going into the bus industry in the ways you describe, on this and other threads.

Unfortunately, that's not the intention. It's a way to cut spending.

Are you a Labour Party spin doctor by any chance?

It's reasonable to point out that Sunak and Hunt could have announced a cap of £2 for a longer time period. It was their choice to apply the end date they did.

 

[Ghostbus]

The £2 fare wasn't funded beyond 2024.

Neither was the £3 fare.

Everything is a choice.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The Tories' cap had a hard end date of 31/12/2024.

Considering that the Tories were out of Government on 5/7/2024, were they really considering the future of the cap when they called the election in May 2024? Personally, I doubt it.

 

[Teapot42]

It's reasonable to point out that Sunak and Hunt could have announced a cap of £2 for a longer time period. It was their choice to apply the end date they did.

Not just that, but to extend it piece-meal, often at very short notice.

While this isn't exactly well in advance, it at least means certainty for 14 months which should give time to see how finances are stabilising and consult on the best path forwards. The detail of how this is paid to operators will be as interesting as the impact on passengers - if the sums don't add up then we might not see as many in the scheme anyway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The distinction between a cap of £3 on a single and a flat £3 single is not there as you would hope. In other words barely any journeys at all will be on offer for £2.99 and less.

I think that's probably accurate but would likely have happened anyway. Immediately pre-Covid Stagecoach Newcastle single fares were typically between £1.50 and £3.30, with a day ticket at £4.30. If you add three years' worth of 12% inflation to, for example, a £2.30 bus fare in 2020 then that fare would now be £3.23.

You'll probably see more people going back to day tickets. A Stagecoach DayRider in Newcastle is currently £5.20, I wouldn't really expect that to change all that much even with a £3 single fare cap.

I'd totally agree with you - if Starmer and Reeves had promised to keep the money going into the bus industry in the ways you describe, on this and other threads.

Unfortunately, that's not the intention. It's a way to cut spending.

Of course it is. An obvious one, too. It does keep control of rural bus fares though, which has to be an important aim.

 

[DarloRich]

I am happy with this. I will travel with the lower social orders for £3. before the cap on the rare occasions i used the bus i seemed to be the only one paying and seemed ot be paying a great deal for a poor service.

£3 seems a fare cap for "in town" services. I am not sure you should be able to get the X5 from Oxford to Bedford for the same price!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Lancaster University is liberally plastered with adverts for the Unirider ticket which costs as little as £1.32 per day if you buy the annual pass.

You'd think Josh Anderton, who is in his second year of studying politics at Lancaster, might be slightly more aware of his surroundings and understand the value of a season ticket for the bus.

I wonder how the BBC found him?


No more than you're a Conservative Party one?

Putting in a fares cap at a limit below pre-Covid fares isn't "taxing working people".

A rather childish response. Just because someone criticises a Labour party policy doesn't mean they support the Conservatives. For the record I have no political allegiance at all and have never voted in a general election.

Your argument seems to be similar to the trick clothes stores play where they charge £50 for a coat, put the price up to £100 for a short time then reduce it back to £50 with a big sign saying "Massive sale - 50% off!".

It doesn't matter what your bus fare was in 2019; if it's £2 now and rising to £3 in January that still means a Labour government have put bus fares up by 50%.

 

[Tetchytyke]

t doesn't matter what your bus fare was in 2019; if it's £2 now and rising to £3 in January that still means a Labour government have put bus fares up by 50%.

I'd like to point out that you were the one to start with the childish name-calling. Don't dish it out if you can't take a response.

It rather does matter what the fare was in 2019 and 2020.

It also rather does matter that the Conservatives put the hard end date of 31 December in place for their scheme. A hard end date means that, at that date, the scheme comes to an end and, in the absence of a replacement scheme, everything goes back to how it was before, i.e. the fares we had in 2019 and 2020.

Instead of allowing that to happen, Labour have put a new scheme in place at £3. Labour haven't put bus fares up by 50%. A temporary scheme put in place by the Conservatives has come to an end on the date that the Conservatives decided that it should come to an end.

 

[urbophile]

In most mainland European cities, but not British ones (except London?), it is possible to buy a bus ticket which allows 60, 90 minutes or more travel time. In other words, if your journey involves a change of buses you don't have to buy more than one ticket. Why should people be doubly penalised by not only having to change (often inevitable, but annoying and potentially complicated), but also by having to pay twice? I know the answer to that is British inability to think outside the box, as well as deregulation and the lack of co-oparation between operators. But this sort of solution could be more useful than a cap, provided the basic fare is not too high. £3 (without this flexibility) is at least double what many continental cities charge.

 

[DC1989]

It is interesting how quickly a temporary tax break or scheme such as this becomes so 'normalised' it's seen as impossible to get rid of

Same with the 'temporary' 5% cut in fuel duty and the 'temporary' reduction in stamp duty charges. Even the winter fuel payment didn't exist until 1997 !

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I'd like to point out that you were the one to start with the childish name-calling. Don't dish it out if you can't take a response.

It rather does matter what the fare was in 2019 and 2020.

It also rather does matter that the Conservatives put the hard end date of 31 December in place for their scheme. A hard end date means that, at that date, the scheme comes to an end and, in the absence of a replacement scheme, everything goes back to how it was before, i.e. the fares we had in 2019 and 2020.

Instead of allowing that to happen, Labour have put a new scheme in place at £3. Labour haven't put bus fares up by 50%. A temporary scheme put in place by the Conservatives has come to an end on the date that the Conservatives decided that it should come to an end.

No, it's simple maths. The current maximum bus fare in the UK is £2. Labour have announced they are scrapping the £2 maximum bus fare and are replacing it with a £3 flat fare. However much you spin it, that means a Labour government are putting bus fares up by 50%.

 

[neilcobbe]

In most mainland European cities, but not British ones (except London?), it is possible to buy a bus ticket which allows 60, 90 minutes or more travel time. In other words, if your journey involves a change of buses you don't have to buy more than one ticket. Why should people be doubly penalised by not only having to change (often inevitable, but annoying and potentially complicated), but also by having to pay twice? I know the answer to that is British inability to think outside the box, as well as deregulation and the lack of co-oparation between operators. But this sort of solution could be more useful than a cap, provided the basic fare is not too high. £3 (without this flexibility) is at least double what many continental cities charge.

This is coming to Greater Manchester in Jan 25. Will be able transfer to another bus within hour of the 1st ticket purchase.

 

[Starmill]

Of course, Labour are also committing the same sin but just in nicer packaging and with less cynicism.

They could have committed to a cap to the end of the Parliament - they've chosen not to. Any concerns around committing that far into the future could have been allayed by proscribing an increase such as £3+annual CPI starting on 1 Jan 2026.

 

[stevieinselby]

No, it's simple maths. The current maximum bus fare in the UK is £2. Labour have announced they are scrapping the £2 maximum bus fare and are replacing it with a £3 flat fare. However much you spin it, that means a Labour government are putting bus fares up by 50%.

That isn't true, the current maximum bus fare in the UK is not £2.
For a start, the existing cap only applies in England, not in Scotland or Wales, as transport is devolved.
For a second, there are a number of operators who don't participate in this optional scheme – a quick search has found regular stage carriage services charging up to £5 single (Lynx) and there may well be others that charge more. The number of operators participating might change – some might join, some might leave – when the details of what the grant funding will give them are released.

£2 is a discounted rate. The commercial fare for most journeys is significantly more. You're still getting a discount, just a smaller discount. And, crucially for your party-political points, the Tories would have scrapped the discount altogether if they had won the election, while Labour are continuing with a discount scheme.

Of course, Labour are also committing the same sin but just in nicer packaging and with less cynicism.

They could have committed to a cap to the end of the Parliament - they've chosen not to. Any concerns around committing that far into the future could have been allayed by proscribing an increase such as £3+annual CPI starting on 1 Jan 2026.

The problem with that is that the current scheme (and the new scheme) work effectively because they are round numbers. A £2 or £3 fare cap is attractive. But if after a couple of years it becomes a £3.37 fare cap, it's going to look nit-picky and silly. And will still involve a hefty unfunded commitment that was never intended to be a long-term solution and does not provide even support to people.