National Express Coaches Discussion

[Deerfold]

Thanks for the comments everyone.
I guess I'm a bit surprised as I always imagined airports charged coaches (and everyone else) heavily to let passengers on and off at their airport (on the basis that it's the airport which has the monopoly on access to the location) and coaches naturally had to pass that on. And it seemed a bit much that they charged that for passengers who were just changing coach there. However, it looks like it is is the coach and bus companies taking the 'excess' profit.
After a bit more poking around the web I thought a possible reason for there being no direct service from LGW to Victoria (not going via Heathrow) is that there is good train service.
In fact LGW-Victoria rail station and Victoria coach station to wherever seems cheaper - and sometimes quicker - even if using a Coachcard! Provided you're willing to walk between the two Victorias which I certainly would without luggage. Or indeed with luggage, but my wife doesn't feel quite the same way about that.

The 025 (Worthing) - Brighton - London Victoria used to go by a much more direct route. Presumably National Express find more people find its route via Heathrow to be useful than did the speedier journey.
I used to use that coach from time to time, but can't imagine saving enough on it now to be worth the extra journey time.

 

[TravelDream]

I guess I'm a bit surprised as I always imagined airports charged coaches (and everyone else) heavily to let passengers on and off at their airport (on the basis that it's the airport which has the monopoly on access to the location) and coaches naturally had to pass that on. And it seemed a bit much that they charged that for passengers who were just changing coach there. However, it looks like it is is the coach and bus companies taking the 'excess' profit.

Airports do charge coach operators to operate there in general.
Though agreements can vary a lot.

I think a core difference between city-city and city-airport services is on the latter the coach can actually be the 'premium' service

Take Bristol to London/ London Heathrow.
Coach is not seen as the main mode, rather the train is. National Express faces a lot of competition from trains which are much faster and other coach operators on the route to London. You will also have people driving to London.
Compare to Heathrow. A train journey requires a connection at Paddington which results in a more challenging less relaxing journey. NX has the bags put underneath and then you just sit there to your destination. That's a premium that can be charged for.
Airport users are also seen as less price sensitive than city-city passengers.

 

[Towers]

Last time i caught the National Express to London the coach went via Heathrow, however National Express had extra staff checking tickets from passengers alighting at Heathrow, each stand in the coach station part of Heathrow are gated too.

How bizarre! What on earth can a NatEx staff member do if you have the ‘wrong’ ticket, realistically - frogmarch you back onto the coach and dispatch you into London?!

Levying an airport ‘surcharge’ to rinse the punters just because you can get away with it is decidedly underhand, it can’t be good business sense to go out of your way to penalise the small minority of punters who are clued up enough to avoid it and thereby put them off ever using your services again!

 

[Smethwickian]

How bizarre! What on earth can a NatEx staff member do if you have the ‘wrong’ ticket, realistically - frogmarch you back onto the coach and dispatch you into London?!

I guess the only legal option if NX has contact details from the booking would be to sue the passenger for the fare avoided plus costs and any penalty charge referred to in the Conditions of Carriage?
I suppose if you stretch credulity to the limits, if Heathrow Airport security is advised you have arrived by unauthorised means as you did not have a ticket entitling you to alight onto airport property, would you be trespassing at an airport which could get you arrested?
So in answer to the question, realistically, probably nothing at the time.
NX can always refuse future bookings under its Conditions of Travel if it falls out with you but I have no idea if that ever actually happens.

 

[MasterSpenny]

There will be over 16,000 seats added to both intercity and express routes in December, with the seats being available on routes on routes to various English cities, as well as Newport and Cardiff.

National Express to expand intercity and airport routes from December

National Express is set to add over 16,000 seats per week to its intercity and airport routes from 4 December.

www.route-one.net

National Express is set to add over 16,000 seats per week to its intercity and airport routes from 4 December.

The company says the expansion comes in response to service reductions by a competing operator.

The additional seats will be available on frequented routes connecting London, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Leeds, Leicester, Newcastle, Newport, Nottingham and Manchester.

Could this be connected to the reduction of service provision Megabus are due to do?

 

[Eyersey468]

I guess the only legal option if NX has contact details from the booking would be to sue the passenger for the fare avoided plus costs and any penalty charge referred to in the Conditions of Carriage?
I suppose if you stretch credulity to the limits, if Heathrow Airport security is advised you have arrived by unauthorised means as you did not have a ticket entitling you to alight onto airport property, would you be trespassing at an airport which could get you arrested?
So in answer to the question, realistically, probably nothing at the time.
NX can always refuse future bookings under its Conditions of Travel if it falls out with you but I have no idea if that ever actually happens.

NX can and do ban people from coaches but I've only ever known it done in cases where the passenger has caused a serious danger to others, assaulted a member of staff or that kind of thing

There will be over 16,000 seats added to both intercity and express routes in December, with the seats being available on routes on routes to various English cities, as well as Newport and Cardiff.

National Express to expand intercity and airport routes from December

National Express is set to add over 16,000 seats per week to its intercity and airport routes from 4 December.

www.route-one.net

Could this be connected to the reduction of service provision Megabus are due to do?

I believe so

 

[Parebunks]

There will be over 16,000 seats added to both intercity and express routes in December, with the seats being available on routes on routes to various English cities, as well as Newport and Cardiff.

National Express to expand intercity and airport routes from December

National Express is set to add over 16,000 seats per week to its intercity and airport routes from 4 December.

www.route-one.net

Could this be connected to the reduction of service provision Megabus are due to do?

Has anyone seen details on this? Hopefully it's not just extra coaches on existing routes - part of the draw with Megabus was more direct routes e.g. across Birmingham so would be ideal if NX could do direct replacements for these.

 

[Deerfold]

Has anyone seen details on this? Hopefully it's not just extra coaches on existing routes - part of the draw with Megabus was more direct routes e.g. across Birmingham so would be ideal if NX could do direct replacements for these.

The article says they're adding capacity on their key intercity routes which would suggest no new routes.
This number of seats suggests about 40 extra coaches a day, so 20 each way, split between several routes

 

[route101]

Has anyone seen details on this? Hopefully it's not just extra coaches on existing routes - part of the draw with Megabus was more direct routes e.g. across Birmingham so would be ideal if NX could do direct replacements for these.

Will be surprised if NX launch or change routes to go through Birmingham. One gap left by Megabus will be Birmingham to Norwich.

 

[Martin1988]

The uplift on the 040 Bristol to London route seems to involve a 30-60 minute frequency during the mid week period and mainly up to half hourly over the weekend period. This reflects the level of service that was in place prior to September when NX cut back the timetable.

Regardless of the news about Megabus I think this is a wise decision on the part of NX as the 040 seems to be really busy at weekends with services selling out or dupes being required. Dupes seem to be a common occurrence on Saturday morning towards London and on Sunday afternoon/evening. I also understand there were even mid week dupes last week.

 

[Towers]

The uplift on the 040 Bristol to London route seems to involve a 30-60 minute frequency during the mid week period and mainly up to half hourly over the weekend period. This reflects the level of service that was in place prior to September when NX cut back the timetable.

Regardless of the news about Megabus I think this is a wise decision on the part of NX as the 040 seems to be really busy at weekends with services selling out or dupes being required. Dupes seem to be a common occurrence on Saturday morning towards London and on Sunday afternoon/evening. I also understand there were even mid week dupes last week.

Are they still using the deckers on these?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Are they still using the deckers on these?

If you mean the 66-reg Boe Vista Scanias then I believe not which is where the 24-plate Van Hool Altanos were meant to come in because of the luggage capacity.

However I believe it was something to do with VanHool that stopped NX ordering them.

 

[JonathanH]

Are they still using the deckers on these?

No, looking at bustimes, all single decks now, with quite a lot of 23 / 24 vehicles. The last Boa Vistas appear to have finished in April.

 

[Towers]

No, looking at bustimes, all single decks now, with quite a lot of 23 / 24 vehicles. The last Boa Vistas appear to have finished in April.

Damn, always fancied a ride on one of those!

 

[Mugby]

Have National Express ever served Wigan? I'm intending to visit some friends there during the Christmas period and due to engineering work on the railway, I though I'd check NatEx as a possibility but apparently they have nothing serving the town.

Same goes for Megabus and Flixbus, I checked them too!

 

[Bungle965]

Have National Express ever served Wigan? I'm intending to visit some friends there during the Christmas period and due to engineering work on the railway, I though I'd check NatEx as a possibility but apparently they have nothing serving the town.

Same goes for Megabus and Flixbus, I checked them too!

They have in the past yes!
I specifically remember the old 571 Whitehaven-London stopping there.

 

[Statto]

They have in the past yes!
I specifically remember the old 571 Whitehaven-London stopping there.

I think the old 570 might have served Wigan as well, one of the routes went via Wigan & Leigh

 

[nick291]

Are they still using the deckers on these?

Sadly not, it's a mix between Levante 3's and 3A's

If you mean the 66-reg Boe Vista Scanias then I believe not which is where the 24-plate Van Hool Altanos were meant to come in because of the luggage capacity.

However I believe it was something to do with VanHool that stopped NX ordering them.

It's because VanHool went bust after the order was made. Shame really as those vehicles looked very nice. I do wonder had this gone ahead, it may have had something to do with when Edwards leased X90 OXF to work the 040 during the COVID lockdown(s).

 

[Swanny200]

The Boa Vistas were apparently for sale at bus and coach centre, unknown as to where they would have gone to as they are no longer for sale on the site unless they are being prepared for sale

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Sadly not, it's a mix between Levante 3's and 3A's


It's because VanHool went bust after the order was made. Shame really as those vehicles looked very nice. I do wonder had this gone ahead, it may have had something to do with when Edwards leased X90 OXF to work the 040 during the COVID lockdown(s).

I think I read that as well.

Either way, I hope they go for interdeckers or double-deckers!

 

[joieman]

Apparently National Express are considering the Van Hool Altano again:

National Express: Van Hool Altano still of interest for high-capacity - routeone

National Express is still interested in purchasing the Van Hool TDX21 Altano coach for high-capacity needs, it has said.

www.route-one.net

National Express may well return to Van Hool under VDL ownership for the TDX21 Altano to meet future needs for high-capacity coaches on its scheduled network, the business has said.

25 of those coaches were ordered from Van Hool early in 2024 for operation by Edwards Coaches and Selwyns Travel on National Express services, but bankruptcy of the Belgian manufacturer saw the deal cancelled after only one was completed.

At that time, National Express said that the 66-seaters would partially be used to replace Caetano Boa Vista double-deckers that were coming to the end of their use on scheduled work. Significant effort had gone into identifying the TDX21 Altano as a suitable high-capacity successor to the Boa Vista, it added.

Speaking in early November, a National Express spokesperson says that the business “really liked the Altano” but notes that the bankruptcy of Van Hool left a significant operational risk in taking on the 25 coaches ordered before that “without clear manufacturer support.”

However, National Express retains a need for high-capacity coaches and the spokesperson adds that it will be interested in buying Altanos in the future, “once a proven manufacturing capability and support network is in place.”

VDL purchased parts of former Van Hool coach and bus undertakings out of bankruptcy and recently announced that the TDX21 Altano is among the Van Hool products that it will continue to manufacture at the factory in North Macedonia that was part of that deal.

National Express Network Director Ed Rickard said in March that the TDX21 Altano would be used on a targeted basis where passenger and luggage capacity was key. He suggested that further coaches in its class would follow the then-expected 25 for Edwards and Selwyns.

At the same time, it was confirmed that 120 Caetano Levante 3A coaches on both Scania and Volvo chassis would join the National Express vehicle pool in 2024.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Apparently National Express are considering the Van Hool Altano again:

National Express: Van Hool Altano still of interest for high-capacity - routeone

National Express is still interested in purchasing the Van Hool TDX21 Altano coach for high-capacity needs, it has said.

www.route-one.net

They'd be ideal for the former Megabus routes previously run by Plaxton InterDeck coaches.

I hope National Express consider running a service from the South Coast to the North East or Scotland like Megabus did.

 

[Towers]

Apparently National Express are considering the Van Hool Altano again:

National Express: Van Hool Altano still of interest for high-capacity - routeone

National Express is still interested in purchasing the Van Hool TDX21 Altano coach for high-capacity needs, it has said.

www.route-one.net

I wonder whether any parties involved here lost any money, as I believe happened in some cases where vehicles were on order? Might hinting at sticking with Van Hool be a means of hoping to recover any lost funds?

 

[dmncf]

I guess that NX is also keen to send a message to Caetano that it doesn't have a monopoly on NX coach bodybuilding and hence Caetano should keep its prices competitive.
I assume that NX and Yutong must have courted each other at times?

 

[gingerheid]

I guess I'm a bit surprised as I always imagined airports charged coaches (and everyone else) heavily to let passengers on and off at their airport (on the basis that it's the airport which has the monopoly on access to the location) and coaches naturally had to pass that on.

Airports do charge coach companies that pick and and set down there - it is certainly true for Stansted and Luton with London services. In return, they restrict the number of operators that can provide those services. I am not sure about charges for services serving regional destinations.

And previously they also acted very restrictively (now just restrictively) in order to benefit from their monopoly position; see https://www.oxera.com/insights/agenda/articles/a-buse-of-dominance-the-arriva-v-luton-case/ , and of course there was the whole debacle at Stansted with Terravision!

On 28 January 2014, the High Court determined that the terms of the agreement with National Express represented an abuse of dominance by Luton Airport.[6] Specifically, the Court ruled that, while the tender itself was legitimate, the terms of the agreement—including the seven-year exclusivity period, the right of first refusal and the concession offered to easyBus—were anticompetitive.

I may be mistaken but wasn't there a suggestion in an earlier exchange that they were actually checking tickets on arrival at Heathrow now to charge the additional fare where a ticket to Heathrow isn't held?

Is there any legal basis by which they could enforce this? I don't know the right answer, but it instinctively feels like the kind of thing only the railways could get off with thanks to their unique legislative position?

 

[joieman]

I guess that NX is also keen to send a message to Caetano that it doesn't have a monopoly on NX coach bodybuilding and hence Caetano should keep its prices competitive.
I assume that NX and Yutong must have courted each other at times?

NX have tried an electric demonstrator once or twice.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any legal basis by which they could enforce this? I don't know the right answer, but it instinctively feels like the kind of thing only the railways could get off with thanks to their unique legislative position?

It is in the contractual terms agreed to when a ticket is bought. National Express may deem an additional fare payable if you finish short at an airport stop.

https://www.nationalexpress.com/en/help/conditions-of-carriage

By purchasing a ticket, and/or by travelling on our Services, you accept these Conditions and any Special Conditions applicable to your Ticket and agree to comply with them.

(c) You may leave the Service at an earlier stop where you: (a) tell the driver when you board the Service that you wish to do so (so that your Luggage can be placed in an appropriate location in the luggage hold) unless that earlier stop is one at which unloading of Luggage is restricted if you are travelling with Luggage in the hold; and (b) you pay the driver or other National Express Representative any additional fare payable as a result of you leaving the Service at an airport stop rather than the booked finish point of your Journey.

 

[route101]

I noticed that Glasgow is down to one overnight service to London a night now. They have rerouted the 595 via Milton Keynes. Edinburgh still has two but the 598 makes stops at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington. Must be trying to sweat the assets.

The 590 day service usually has cheaper fares than the night services.

 

[ADB125]

I noticed that Glasgow is down to one overnight service to London a night now. They have rerouted the 595 via Milton Keynes. Edinburgh still has two but the 598 makes stops at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington. Must be trying to sweat the assets.

The 590 day service usually has cheaper fares than the night services.

the 598 is really an extension of the 435 to Edinburgh, so effectively 2 overnight services have been cut.

The 590 day service now goes via Manchester which is useful as it replaces the 184 between Manchester and Glasgow, but the overall journey time from London to Glasgow is nearly an hour longer than before.

 

[JonathanH]

I noticed that Glasgow is down to one overnight service to London a night now.

Is demand for overnight Anglo-Scottish travel diminishing or are the coach operators just reducing supply in the market? In which case, why?