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Evening Standard Story: More Dangerous DOO Chaos

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NightatLaira

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Sounds like you have an axe to grind. If the driver is being told nothing or decisions aren't yet made, what can he do? If a guard was on board could he have stopped it happening on the other end of an 8 coach train? How do you know the driver wasnt regularly announcing that he was hoping to move soon but was waiting for the go-ahead?

Finally, would you not consider these passengers' irresponsibility to be at the very least a contributing factor?

I could re-echo a lot of the comments on this thread - but I do think there is a interesting parallel between this and the Epsom racecource goer who got electrocuted by the third rail...

I.e., where passengers perceive themselves to be in imminent danger from heat exhaustion or violent attack from another passenger they will do essentially 'dangerous' things like escaping from the train and walking along the track. I don't think we can blame them for doing so, and I think comments like the one I've quoted do an injustice to people who genuinely may have been in fear of expiring from dehydration.

You can't deem someone as irresponsible when they're panicking. Were the football supporters at Hillsborough irresponsible for panicking?
 
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ralphchadkirk

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Frankly after 3 hours then leaving the train of your own accord is perfectly reasonable in my view. Imprisoned in a train is what it feels like.

It is not and will never be reasonable. Recently, on the SR a woman stepped on the third rail and suffered severe burns after leaving a train of her own accord.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You can't deem someone as irresponsible when they're panicking. Were the football supporters at Hillsborough irresponsible for panicking?

You can deem what someone does as irresponsible whether they are panicking or not. What happened at Hillsborough cannot be compared to a train in Kings Cross tunnel.
 
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CNX

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Who will be holding enquries regarding this incident?

I presume that the RAIB and ORR will each carry one out, in addition to internal investigations by Network Rail and FCC.
 

Squaddie

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It is not and will never be reasonable.
After three hours on a stationary train without any information or indication that the train was going to move I think it is absolutely reasonable for passengers to want to escape. Only a rail industry apologist could think otherwise.
 

ralphchadkirk

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After three hours on a stationary train without any information or indication that the train was going to move I think it is absolutely reasonable for passengers to want to escape. Only a rail industry apologist could think otherwise.

People can want to, but there is no reason to. Going on the track is dangerous, ad going on the track with no training and in an unfamiliar area with people who don't know about railways is stupid. Not to mention that persons reported on the line will slow down any rescue attempt.
 

GB

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Wanting to escape and actually doining it are two different things and had they not alighted the train would have been on the move some 40 minutes earlier.
 

hairyhandedfool

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so, a genuine question...

on a route with so many trains, so close to london, how does it take 140 minutes to couple another train onto the failed one?

i'll allow 20 minutes for the driver to conclude 'nope it's knackered, we need another train'

The report says the overheads tripped out though.

No juice = no other surrounding train moving.

Aswell as the electric issue, there are two dozen or so 377s and 86 319s in use with FCC. 377s have different coupler to 319s. AFAIK the 377s concentrate on Bedford-Brighton trains, which means the chances of a 377 being directly behind or directly infront of the failed train is quite small. I doubt there are many diesel locos in the area that could (a) get to the train and (b) couple to it.

....I agree that non-gangway stock is a bad idea, although 319's do at least have an end exit door which is something....

The end door on a 319 is only of use if a member of staff is available. The reason being that it is probably locked and the door that leads to the cab (where the exit is) cannot be opened by passengers.

Gonna be some questions asked there about how the train was able to move with the doors open, as the interlock should have halted it....

It is possible to bypass the system to get a train off the mainline when there is a failure (you can imagine the delays if a fitter has to get to a train and fix the fault before the train could move).

I think the questions should be, why did they need to move the train with doors open, what precautions were taken and could the move have been made more safely.
 

ralphchadkirk

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After how many hours of being stuck on a packed commuter train with no information does it become reasonable then?

You're just asking a question that I have already answered: it is not and will never be reasonable. It is incredibly unlikely to be stuck for 3 hours, and even more unlikely to receive no information in that period (we have no proof that the people who say there was no information are correct).
 

oversteer

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Nobody fell out when the doors were open and the train was moving, did they? Give the passengers SOME credit :)
 

stut

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Well, I agree it is 'chaos' but it's not DOO chaos, really. Would a guard on an SWT inner-suburban train who usually just sits in the back cab really be better at calming passengers than a ticket examiner who has a much more customer-facing role on the Glasgow suburban network? There will always be exceptions of course, but in most cases I suspect not.

In fairness to SWT, the one time I've been stuck on one of their trains (suicide under our train near Worplesdon on a late night GLD-WAT stopper), the guard was outstanding. She kept everybody informed in person, made sure there was food and drink for the right number of people waiting at Woking, as well as taxis pre-ordered for all of our destinations (sharing while appropriate).

Compared to FGW (aftermath of a late night suicide near Taplow, no information for over an hour, no assistance on arrival at Paddington at 2am) and FCC (train failure at Langford, 1h30 delay, no information for over an hour, four members of staff meeting us at Arlesey with nothing but Delay Repay forms), it was really quite impressive!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nobody fell out when the doors were open and the train was moving, did they? Give the passengers SOME credit :)

I've travelled on many, many trains with open passenger doors. I wouldn't advocate it for the busy routes in this country, but it's not that inherently dangerous.
 

sonorguy

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You can deem what someone does as irresponsible whether they are panicking or not. What happened at Hillsborough cannot be compared to a train in Kings Cross tunnel.

I'm sure none of the passengers on this train were thinking...'I need to get off this train but wait, this isn't as bad as Hillsborough so I have no need to panic. I'll just wait in a swelteringly hot carriage with no fluids, ventilation or information and rammed together with 470 other people for an unspecified amount of time'. That's not how people are and it's unrealistic to expect them to be.

You're displaying a very poor grasp of human psychology, particularly crowd psychology by your comment. It may well not have been the best plan to get off the train, but to some it may have started to feel like the only plan at that time.
 

ralphchadkirk

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At Hillsborough, thousands of fans were being pushed into an already full area. People were suffocating due to the sheer amount of people. Others were trampled and killed. Hundreds more would have died if people hadn't climbed out the area onto the pitch. That is not comparable to a failed train. We have no proof that no information was given (which is incredibly unlikely). Whether or not it seemed like the only plan (which it isn't) there was no reason to alight from the train, and those who do are putting themselves and others in danger. You're displaying a very poor grasp of railway safety.
 

Asian Demon

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What it comes down to is this. People panicked because of a supposed (not confirmed) lack of information and decided to do what they thought would be best. From a Railway safety point of view it was a silly thing to do, but from a passenger standpoint (who might I add has no logic in regards to rail rules and safety) it was logical albeit irrational. People do irrational things when they panic and that is sadly human nature.

The main thing here is, that with all of this no one got hurt. As for the comparisons to other disasters being quoted around here, I would like to point out that fear of something does not have to be rational. An irrational fear to one person may be a rational fear to another. At the end of the day it is still a fear. No one can know what is going on in the minds of individuals at any given point. That is the human mind for ya.
 

Aictos

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so, a genuine question...

on a route with so many trains, so close to london, how does it take 140 minutes to couple another train onto the failed one?

i'll allow 20 minutes for the driver to conclude 'nope it's knackered, we need another train'

Part of the problem was the fact that at the time only a 8 car 377 was available, the 377s cannot run as a 16 car service as the software just will not allow it so you have to uncouple one 4 car 377 and leave it somewhere in the core then use the same driver to take the remaining one to rescue the failed 8 car 377 service.

Part of the problem was also down to Network Rail as the OHLs kept tripping which is why the FCC was declared a failure as it was found that it was the 8 car 377 which was the only affected service.

As far as I know only the South Eastern's were going though the core as FCC was operating a split service ie Bedford to Kentish Town and City Thameslink southbound.
 

DarloRich

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After three hours on a stationary train without any information or indication that the train was going to move I think it is absolutely reasonable for passengers to want to escape. Only a rail industry apologist could think otherwise.

No, no it isn’t. It is stupid, dangerous and potentially life threatening. Oh the train is hot, I know lets get off in a tunnel on an electrified railway when trains may be running on the other line.

How many ways do you want to die? Fried, hit by a train, break you leg jumping down, trip on the "railway furniture" and crack your head on the rail? Which one of these do you fancy? What if the OHLE is down but still live?

Do you want to endanger the life of the staff who have to get you off the infrastructure?

Yes it isn’t nice but you only get off the train in an emergency, by which i mean imminent threat to life, NOT because you are uncomfortable and a bit hot.

We have all been on packed trains stooped in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason. Yes information is important and required, but even so, you sit tight, read your book or the paper, listen to your ipod, play with your lap top or ipad and just deal with it. Perhaps you could even talk to someone. I know that for you cockneys this will be hard but give it a try, it will pass the time! You might even like it!

Sorry for being a rail industry apologist but it is common sense - YOU STAY PUT!
 

wellhouse

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Having experienced train failures over the years (especially on the Thameslink route) I find the reactions of delayed fellow passengers to to be impatience and frustration rather than panic.

Of course it is safer for people to remain on board unless there is a serious threat such as a fire or violence.

There does seem to be a guidance and training issue here regarding announcements to be made regardless of whether or not the train is DOO. Staff more often than not seem embarrassed that they have no additional information to offer after the first 10 minutes or so, beyond 'I'll let you know as soon as I hear anything' and passengers are left wondering if they are ever going to leave the train in their lifetime. Communication is about more than information; it is essential to also apologise (which is often done) but also to reassure (which is much less common).

When a train is packed, no member of train crew will be able to pass through to make personal contact with all passengers, but I saw (or heard!) an example of best practice some years ago when a Class 319 suffered a total power failure at night between Harpenden and Luton without even emergency lighting. The Trolley Steward came through relaying a message from the driver, appealing for patience even thought there was no additional solid information. These days, of course the service is too congested for a trolley service.

On another occasion I was on a Class 319 that pushed a failed train into Luton. Passengers in our unit lost patience at the time it was taking to unload the front 8 cars, and someone opened the front doors of our unit that were just on the end of the platform. This was frustration rather than panic, and had there been adequate reassurance that the train was to pull forward shortly, I'm sure people would have waited.
 

radamfi

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On a 377 with no power, how can you get ventilation? Presumably the choice is breaking the windows with the hammer or opening the door. This way passengers can keep cool without getting off the train.
 

michael769

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Yes it isn’t nice but you only get off the train in an emergency, by which i mean imminent threat to life, NOT because you are uncomfortable and a bit hot.

And how do you know there was not an imminent threat to life? How hot was the train inside? Once ambient temperatures exceed somewhere between 34-40degC depending on the humidity (which would be high in an unventilated space with a few hundred people, and thus the limit would be closer to 34), the human body loses the ability to keep it's core temperature under control, once the core temp of the body rises above 40 injury and even death can result with an hour or so. The driver (who has a window in his cab) may well have been oblivious to the plight of his passengers - as I doubt that the risks associated with heatstroke is not something that forms part of the a driver's training.

But that is all hypothetical until the report comes out and we find out the reality of what conditions in that train were.

What is not hypothetical is that this is not the first time there have been incidents where doors have been forced open following a train failure, by passengers desperate to get some relief from conditions that they felt were intolerable, after being left to suffer an ever increasing heat and humidity, without any practical assistance for an extended period. This is in my view an inevitable consequence of designing trains that are entirely reliant on functioning air conditioning to ventilate the interior of a train.

Such incidents will continue to occur until units are fitted with some form of backup ventilation - such as is seen on the 158 which has crew operated hopper windows, although of course such arrangements still need train crew to be available to operate them.

In the meantime, I do feel that the rail industry needs to be more aware of the potential for such problems when a train fails on warm days (and even on cool sunny days), and should consider attempting to get some assistance (for example dispatching staff to the train with water), and even, for extended incidents to get sufficient manpower to effectively supervise the doorwells so that they can be opened to provide air whilst ensuring that passengers are not at risk of being able to get onto the tracks.

Leaving several hundred passengers trapped in an unventilated confined space for several hours without practical assistance is, in my opinion, reprehensible conduct that falls well short of any acceptable standard of behaviour - and in such circumstances, whether or not he railway industry like it or not, people will ultimately find ways to help themselves is assistance is not forthcoming - guard or not, when it is 200+ people versus 2-5 traincrew, there is little the crew can do to stop passengers putting themselves at risk and IMHO the safety of the railways requires that the industry recognise this and do more in such incidents.
 

radamfi

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Is the driver in similar discomfort to passengers in these circumstances?

Can the driver open the emergency windows on a 377?
 

Dr.iver

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Is the driver in similar discomfort to passengers in these circumstances?

Can the driver open the emergency windows on a 377?


Yes the driver is in the same cconditions, the windows on a 377 are locked with a T key so the driver would need to force his way through each coach to unlock them individually - a crazy system

Incidentally no power means no PA when the batteries pack up, this would have meant no announcents, also no battery means no mitrac computer.

I'm assuming that as the problems were with the pans ( turns out they had a branch stuck in one) that the assisting unit would only mechanically couple to drag out so again their would have been no cab indication the doors were open.
I have seen a utube video of the incident and on arrival at Kentish Town the PA announcements says only the front four coaches will open the doors which make methinks the unit was dragged out dead.

Also folks please bear in mind the assisting unit was also DOO so only two drivers where on board and they would have been occupied with coupling etc. What makes no sense and is quite criminal IMO is why no other staff were dispatched to offer assistance and support to the passengers and the driver

Makes the Mcnulty report look even more stupid now, DOO needs to be resisted for this very reason .


I fear their is a lot to come out ofthis incident and I pray that the driver is no made a scapegoat
 

radamfi

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Does the driver carry the T-key? Surely the driver opening each window with a T-key is no different to the guard doing it?
 

87015

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DOO is not the main issue here, the complete mess made by FCC in taking so long to conduct a simple rescue operation is. If somebody has decided after hours they are going to get off I very much doubt one extra member of staff is going to make them think any differently and certainly one man on a eight coach train isn't going to be able to stop them.
 

michael769

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Yes the driver is in the same cconditions, the windows on a 377 are locked with a T key so the driver would need to force his way through each coach to unlock them individually - a crazy system

Does the drivers cab not have a window that opens?
 

Dr.iver

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Does the driver carry the T-key? Surely the driver opening each window with a T-key is no different to the guard doing it?

Of course the driver has the t-key, In my experience it would have taken him the best part of an hour to force his way through each coach to open all the windows, now their is no way he or the signaller would want him away from any form of communication for this time as no direct contact with the driver means no movement of the assisting train - quite simply DOO means you either deal with the train or the passengers, incidents like this are a drivers worst nightmare as the situation can escalate rapidly out of your control.
What surprises me us that no other railway person ( even office based) from any company was on board and volunteered to help, in hindsight the driver could have asked a passenger to take responsibilty to open windows but in the heat of the moment things get missed - you might be surprised but we don't receive direct training in dealing with the public during an incident and it comes down to the individual
If you took the airline industry for example during an incident they have check lists etc which they must follow, a train driver wouldn't have this luxury instead heaping have a signaller issuing instructions, control doing the same and then passengers as well.
 

GB

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What surprises me us that no other railway person ( even office based) from any company was on board and volunteered to help,.

Why does that suprise you? Of all the 1000's of services that operate each day across the country not everyone will have an off duty (or other company) member of railway staff on board.
 

Furrball

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One question could be why FCC made no effort to get additional staff onto the train? I assume the relevant permission could have been obtained for them to have walked along the track from Kings Cross to access the train the via the nearest cab.
 

ChrisCooper

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I think what is needed is a fatality or serious medical emergency due to passengers being trapped on a hot and busy train for some time before the issue gets taken seriously. For some reason the risk seems to be ignored, yet it is real, whilst other minor risks are taken into account which increase the time needed to rescue or evacuate a stuck train. Desision making during incidents is far too slow. I've known even minor failures lead to trains stuck for hours whilst control decided what to do, in situations where the train crew were well aware of the ovious solution to the problem (in one case uncoupling the failed rear unit and taking the working units forward, and in another limping the failed train to a nearby siding and allowing the following service to collect passengers).

For those ciriticising the passenger, it's important to remember that there is a massive difference between being stuck on a train whilst being able to sit down (and read a book, play with laptop etc as someone suggested) and being stuck on a train and having to stand, perhaps so packed that you can't even sit down on the floor. I think a big problem in dealing with these situations is the disconnection between those handling it and the passenger in the worst of it. Even the driver is sitting in their comfortable cab, ok they might have lost A/C but at least they can open the window or door. The control room staff are sitting in their nice office with a cup of tea, a world away from the passengers who are hot, crowded and uncomfortable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why does that suprise you? Of all the 1000's of services that operate each day across the country not everyone will have an off duty (or other company) member of railway staff on board.

Perhaps they need to do like the airlines and require that each plane carries at least one off duty or former pilot onboard (or at very least some geeky kid who is an expert at Flight Sims), one Doctor (who always travels with at least basic equipment), an off duty or retired Police Officer and a few unlikeable people who can be killed in any incident without anyone caring. It's not just films either, at least one major crash was sort of averted (a reasonable number of people walked away) because not only did an off duty pilot happen to be onboard but he flew the same type of aircraft so was able to assist the pilots.
 
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