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Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

Starmill

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Any collision is deeply worrying, one which throws people from their seats and causes belongings to go flying around the train appallingly so. That must be such a dreadful experience and it's so sad to think someone may have died even if as an indirect consequence. How awful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Newspapers regularly report things without making sure they’re credible - take for example the BBC still reporting that the train was going somewhere between 40mph-60mph when that’s been established to be false.
BBC News is in general a highly reliable source. They could have made their quote from the traveller slightly clearer in this case of course.

They wouldn't report on someone's death without it being factual, if they did it would be a serious upset and they'd have to issue an apology.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The passenger was wrong, but was just stating their impression when interviewed.
Indeed. And it's not as if their impression was completely unreasonable either.
 
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Meole

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The train that apparently slid through the loop was going uphill towards the summit, seems to have crested the summit and slid down the famous Talerddig bank - from steam days - where the up train would be accelerating to get up the rise, combined speed could be quite significant.
 

87electric

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Is this correct? 158841 (1J25) was the sliding unit that slid through the loop, sliding for another half mile, then collided head on with 158824 (1S71).
 

westcoaster

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Sure, it's not just the track though - its two units out of action from a limited fleet.
That could be solved by for example by not running ETCS units passed Shrewsbury (unless for maintenance).
Now if only they was a fleet of Dmu's available to run these TFW could use.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I wonder where the industry project that was developing double variable-rate sanders has got to. Might have had a material effect on this incident if both trains had been fitted with it - IIRC the class 323 unit fitted as a trial basically overcame the risk of sliding almost completely, to the extent that it could be braked heavily in poor railhead conditions without losing adhesion.
 

millemille

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I wonder where the industry project that was developing double variable-rate sanders has got to. Might have had a material effect on this incident if both trains had been fitted with it - IIRC the class 323 unit fitted as a trial basically overcame the risk of sliding almost completely, to the extent that it could be braked heavily in poor railhead conditions without losing adhesion.

The Network Rail Performance Innovation Fund ("PIF") from CP6 funded the fitment of Double Variable Rate Sanders (DVRS) to ScotRail operated class 170's and Northern operated class 323's and Single Variable Rate Sanders (SVRS) to SWR class 158/159's.

The funding was given to carry out fleet service trials of the concept to understand whether the results from controlled test track/closed track operation could be achieved in service. The 323's and 158/159's are fully fitted and are running in anger for the first time this leaf fall season, the class 170 project is running very late and the first in class has only just, I believe, come back from works.

To be clear, DVRS (and SVRS on 2 carriage trains) potentially offers assured 6%g, equivalent to brake step 2 stopping performance, under all conditions. It doesn't offer the driver ability to brake with impunity and get the same stopping performance as on clean, dry rail.

A "seasonally agnostic" train is feasible, but is still some years away yet, and wouldn't just be realized by sanding equipment fitment/upgrades.
 

norbitonflyer

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The issue is of course cause and effect. Would they have tragically lost their life and had a heart attack if they weren’t a passenger involved in a train collision?
I don't know, but the same questions were raised after the Grayrigg derailment, in which the only fatality was a heart attack. I think one of the two fatalities in the Cannon Street buffer stop collision (c 1990) was as well.

As the RAIB records all fatalities on railway property (including slips, falls, etc unrelated to train operation) I wonder if there are any stats on how often heart attacks occur on trains? You certainly hear of delays caused by a passenger taken ill on a train from time to time.
 

Jonny

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Observation from watching the news earlier is how we have a very poor idea of how fast we are travelling when on transport and any accounts immediately after an indicent must be treat with caution.

Passenger interviewed (who was visibly still shocked), stated the train went from "40, 50 or even 60 mph" before coming to a sudden stop. This part of the clip has now been removed and reports are it is being considered a low speed collision, which looking at the damage is probably correct.
Perceived speed often does not match reality. It is an interesting subject, perhaps in this case it corresponds to an honest mismatch between perception and reality. The investigators will deal with that in due course.
 

The Planner

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The summit is slightly further along the line at the cutting. I need to get my copy of Cristiansen and Miller out which has the gradient profile to be certain but I think that Talerddig itself is on a descending gradient towards Caersws.
Talerddig loop is on the level at the eastern end, then starts dropping towards Mach at 1 in 56.
 

rich.davies

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I've juat heard a news report on the radio (Nation Radio), that said a person was killed. Given it was a heart attack, due to the effects of the collision, should they be correcting this?

A sad situation regardless and thoughts are with the person's family.
 

Anonymous10

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I've juat heard a news report on the radio (Nation Radio), that said a person was killed. Given it was a heart attack, due to the effects of the collision, should they be correcting this?

A sad situation regardless and thoughts are with the person's family.
That's media for you though, a person did die. Even if not necessarily from the impact... a sad reflection of many aspects of life.
 

CHAPS2034

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Indeed, also factually inaccurate. Heart attacks are not reserved just for the old, frail or necessarily as a result of something "overwhelmingly scary".

Quite correct. It was an inaccurate and totally insensitive post

I know people who had a heart attack when young and are still around 30-40 years later.

But then some people post just for the sake of it.

Very sad that this happened on the railway, and thoughts to all involved passengers, train crew and relatives.
 
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It might be worth noting for those doubting that adhesion is quite likely the main issue here if not the total issue, that simply put, ETCS, (if operating normally), prevents a train from passing an end of movement authority (MA) in essentially all other circumstances, although at low speed it is possible that the breakaway speed allowance will allow the train (very) short distance past the MA and a TRIP (ETCS for SPAD) to occur before emergency brake demands stops it. The system constantly calculates approach speed and deceleration towards the MA and if it decides the driver’s actions are insufficient to stop the train before the end of MA it will intervene to do so. It is possible for the RBC to send the poor adhesion information to the train but how TfW’s handles this I don’t know.

Thameslink for example instructs drivers to not use ATO if the LRA icon appears as the onboard system’s decisions on acceleration and brake demands are considered as not being reliable enough for ATO to function, this would lead me to assume further, (given that ATO uses the information from the ETCS system to drive), that the ETCS intervention, if calculated braking curve is being exceeded, is not sufficient to prevent a TRIP in poor adhesion.

This is all to say that, the only way it ended up where it shouldn’t have been is if the ETCS was faulty, (track infrastructure for ETCS is passive so either driver or signaller would know if that was the case), or if it slid there. (Obviously Driver actions will be looked at too as the system isn’t designed to remove the burden of taking more precautions than the system insists on anyway but that is not an area on which we can speculate).
 

Llanigraham

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Has the RHTT visited the Cambrian Line in this year's leaf fall season?
Yes, it went up after the last service the night before and was due to do the same last night.

Vegetation:
This incident occured in a heavily forested narrow valley, with severely steep sides and a river. It would not be possible to clear all the trees in that area. You only have to look at some of the photos up-thread to realise that.
It is very close to the section of the A470 that was due to close next week, for 7 weeks.

Casualties:
WAS have confirmed 15 casulaties taken to hospital, none with life threatening injuries other then the one person who sustained a heart attack at the incident and who was heli-transported to hospital. All others were road transported.
Remaining passengers walked to a coach provided by Lloyds Coaches of Machynlleth.

(Note I live within 15 miles and know the area well!)
 

Snow1964

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An updated statement from HTR (or BTP in English)

Published:15:23 22/10/2024
We were called to the line near Llanbrynmair at 7.29pm on 21 October to reports of a low-speed train collision involving two trains.

There was a multi-agency emergency services response, including the Welsh Ambulance Service, Mid and West Wales Fire Service, Dyfed Powys Police, and the HM Coastguard, along with support from the rail industry.

Sadly, a man in his 60s has died following the collision. The circumstances leading up to his death are under investigation. His next of kin have been informed and his family are being supported by specialist officers. While formal identification has not taken place he is not believed to be a member of rail staff. Our thoughts remain with his loved ones and we kindly ask they are given privacy at this time.

A further 15 people were taken to hospital with injuries not believed to be life threatening or life changing.

All other passengers were safely evacuated.

We are working at pace, along with our colleagues in emergency services and the rail industry, to understand the circumstances leading up to this collision and as a result there will be a continued emergency services presence in the area in the coming days.

 

John Webb

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For information the descent in the Down direction from Talerddig Summit is given as 1:56 ( for about a mile) and 1:52 for just over another 2 miles to the level section at the former Llanbrynmair station. (From British Rail-Main Line Gradient Profiles as published over the past decades by Ian Allan and others)
 

Jez

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How awful. My thoughts with those involved and the family of the person who lost their life. Must have been awful for the train crew, my thoughts with them.
 

Vexed

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RAIB has released a press statement, my bold
At around 19:26 on the evening of 21 October 2024, the 18:31 Transport for Wales passenger service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth collided with another train on Network Rail’s Cambrian line, approximately 800 metres west of the passing loop located at Talerddig, Powys. Initial evidence suggests that collision occurred at a speed of approximately 24 km/h (15 mph). The second train involved was the 19:09 Machynlleth to Shrewsbury passenger service, also operated by Transport for Wales.

One passenger tragically died and four other people were seriously injured. Eleven more people sustained injuries which required hospital treatment.

RAIB was notified of the accident at 19:45 on the night of the accident and immediately dispatched a team of inspectors to examine the site and collect evidence.

Additional RAIB staff and specialist equipment have arrived at the site of the accident throughout today and we continue to work in conjunction with the British Transport Police, the Office of Rail and Road and the railway companies involved to secure the necessary evidence to support our independent safety investigation. This will include examining the condition of the train and downloading its ‘black box’ data recorder, inspecting the track, analysing data from railway signalling and radio systems, and interviewing witnesses.

The railway approaching Talerddig from each direction consists of a single track. To allow trains to pass each other a track loop is provided. These loops have points at each end and allow trains to enter a short length of track which lies alongside the single line.

RAIB’s initial inspection of the track on approach to the point of collision found evidence that wheel/rail adhesion was relatively low, suggesting that the train may have entered into wheel slide when braking. This will be an area of ongoing investigation.

Our investigation is in its very early stages and an additional update will be available in the coming days once RAIB has gathered and analysed further evidence.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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The Network Rail Performance Innovation Fund ("PIF") from CP6 funded the fitment of Double Variable Rate Sanders (DVRS) to ScotRail operated class 170's and Northern operated class 323's and Single Variable Rate Sanders (SVRS) to SWR class 158/159's.

The funding was given to carry out fleet service trials of the concept to understand whether the results from controlled test track/closed track operation could be achieved in service. The 323's and 158/159's are fully fitted and are running in anger for the first time this leaf fall season, the class 170 project is running very late and the first in class has only just, I believe, come back from works.

To be clear, DVRS (and SVRS on 2 carriage trains) potentially offers assured 6%g, equivalent to brake step 2 stopping performance, under all conditions. It doesn't offer the driver ability to brake with impunity and get the same stopping performance as on clean, dry rail.

A "seasonally agnostic" train is feasible, but is still some years away yet, and wouldn't just be realized by sanding equipment fitment/upgrades.

Thank you for this comprehensive answer, I hope the industry doesn’t lose focus on this (and other) technological advances and funding is made available to implement them.

(If I’m feeling pro-active I might write to Louise Haigh, you never know what might help.)
 

Worldwide

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Initial findings by investigators suggest the train suffered wheel slide before collision
It does in deed:

 

Y Ddraig Coch

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It does in deed:

Great to see when such media and public scrutiny is involved the RAIB give a statement quick and early, it gives nothing away, but calms nerves and gives reassurance nothing untoward happened. Very well done. We await the full report in due course.
 

Mag_seven

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Great to see when such media and public scrutiny is involved the RAIB give a statement quick and early, it gives nothing away, but calms nerves and gives reassurance nothing untoward happened. Very well done. We await the full report in due course.

Agreed and on that note I think we will draw this one to a close and await the RAIB report.

Away from the actual incident itself we have a few spin off speculative threads which remain open for comment:





 
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ainsworth74

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Brief update from the RAIB was published yesterday which can be found below:

At around 19:26 on the evening of 21 October 2024, the 18:31 Transport for Wales passenger service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth collided with another train on Network Rail’s Cambrian line, approximately 800 metres west of the passing loop located at Talerddig, Powys. Initial evidence suggests that collision occurred at a speed of approximately 24 km/h (15 mph). The second train involved was the 19:09 Machynlleth to Shrewsbury passenger service, also operated by Transport for Wales.

One passenger tragically died and four other people were seriously injured. Eleven more people sustained injuries which required hospital treatment.

RAIB was notified of the accident at 19:45 on the night of the accident and immediately dispatched a team of inspectors to examine the site and collect evidence.

Additional RAIB staff and specialist equipment have arrived at the site of the accident throughout today and we continue to work in conjunction with the British Transport Police, the Office of Rail and Road and the railway companies involved to secure the necessary evidence to support our independent safety investigation. This will include examining the condition of the train and downloading its ‘black box’ data recorder, inspecting the track, analysing data from railway signalling and radio systems, and interviewing witnesses.

The railway approaching Talerddig from each direction consists of a single track. To allow trains to pass each other a track loop is provided. These loops have points at each end and allow trains to enter a short length of track which lies alongside the single line.

RAIB’s initial inspection of the track on approach to the point of collision found evidence that wheel/rail adhesion was relatively low, suggesting that the train may have entered into wheel slide when braking. This will be an area of ongoing investigation.

Our investigation is in its very early stages and an additional update will be available in the coming days once RAIB has gathered and analysed further evidence.


Members should feel free to report this post as and when further relevant updates are published and we can consider re-opening the thread. Otherwise I'd direct people to the threads linked above for comments on ancillary matters.
 

ainsworth74

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An update from the RAIB was posted today which outlines some early findings and the topics for their subsequent full investigation:

At around 19:26 on Monday 21 October 2024, train 1J25, the 18:31 Transport for Wales passenger service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth, collided with train 1S71, the 19:09 Machynlleth to Shrewsbury passenger service, also operated by Transport for Wales.

The collision took place on Network Rail’s Cambrian line, approximately 900 metres west of the passing loop located at Talerddig, Powys. One passenger died and four other people were seriously injured. Eleven more people sustained injuries which required hospital treatment. Neither train derailed in the collision, although significant damage was caused to the leading vehicles of both trains.

RAIB was notified at 19:45 on the night of the accident and immediately dispatched a team of inspectors to the scene. Over the next few days, RAIB worked in conjunction with the British Transport Police, the Office of Rail and Road and the railway companies involved to secure the necessary evidence to support our independent safety investigation.

RAIB released the site of the accident to Network Rail on the evening of Wednesday 23 October 2024, to allow for inspection and repair of the track, and recovery of the trains. Both trains were moved off site on Friday 25 October 2024. RAIB inspectors and support staff continued to secure evidence at the site of the accident, and at nearby locations, until Saturday 26 October 2024.

Both trains involved in the accident were 2-car class 158 diesel multiple units. These units are fitted with wheel slide protection systems, similar in function to anti-lock braking systems on road vehicles, and an automatic sanding system, which discharges sand automatically via sanding hoses when wheel slide is detected during braking. This is intended to increase the available friction at the wheel/rail interface.

The Cambrian line is equipped with the European Rail Traffic Management System, a form of railway signalling. This system removes the need for lineside signals by transmitting signalling and control data directly to the train. The limits of each section of track controlled by the system are signified by reflective lineside signs known as block markers.

The railway approaching Talerddig from each direction consists of a single track. To allow trains to pass each other there, a loop is provided. This has points at each end which allow trains to enter a short length of track adjacent to the single line. Westbound trains climb an ascending gradient to enter the loop and, on exiting, rejoin the single track as it descends towards Llanbrynmair and Machynlleth.

RAIB’s preliminary examination has found that westbound train 1J25 had been due to stop in the loop at Talerddig to allow eastbound train 1S71 to pass. Initial analysis of data from the on-train data recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1J25 shows that the driver applied service braking to slow the train as it neared the loop at Talerddig. Around 40 seconds after the first service brake application, the OTDR records an emergency brake demand being made. This emergency brake demand remained in place until the collision. OTDR data shows that wheel slide started during service braking and was constant during emergency braking.

Train 1J25 then entered the loop at Talerddig. Although the train slowed while passing through the loop, it did not stop before passing the block marker positioned near the exit. The train subsequently exited the loop, rejoined the single line, and continued to travel for around 900 metres on the descending gradient, before colliding with train 1S71.

There is conflicting evidence relating to the speed of the trains at the point of collision. Initial analysis indicates that train 1J25 was travelling at between 24 km/h (15 mph) and 39 km/h (24 mph), while train 1S71 was travelling at around 10 km/h (6 mph) in the opposite direction. RAIB is continuing to analyse evidence relating to the collision speed, which remains an area of ongoing investigation.

Following the accident, RAIB undertook measurements of wheel/rail adhesion levels at various locations from the approach to Talerddig loop to the point of collision. These found levels of wheel/rail adhesion that were low.

An inspection of the automatic sanding system fitted to train 1J25 after the accident showed that the sanding hoses on the leading vehicle of this train (which would have been active at the time of the accident) were blocked and apparently unable to discharge sand.

Our investigation will seek to identify the sequence of events which led to the accident. It will also consider:

  • the actions of those involved and any factors that may have influenced them
  • the level of wheel/rail adhesion present from the approach to Talerddig loop to the point of collision
  • the status and performance of the braking, wheel slide protection and sanding systems on train 1J25
  • the behaviour of both trains during and following the collision
  • Transport for Wales’ policies relating to low wheel/rail adhesion and how it managed the risk of low adhesion on the Cambrian line
  • Network Rail’s policies relating to low wheel/rail adhesion and how it managed the risk of low adhesion on the Cambrian line
  • the processes used to assess and control the risk of overrun on the Cambrian line
  • any relevant underlying factors, including any actions taken in response to previous relevant safety recommendations.
 

12LDA28C

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Interesting that the speed of 1J25 is still under investigation. No doubt this is due to the fact that as the train was sliding, accurate train speed information was not recorded on the OTDR - in my experience in a similar situation when the wheels 'lock up' under sliding the speedometer reads Zero as the wheels are not rotating.
 

hexagon789

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Interesting that the speed of 1J25 is still under investigation. No doubt this is due to the fact that as the train was sliding, accurate train speed information was not recorded on the OTDR - in my experience in a similar situation when the wheels 'lock up' under sliding the speedometer reads Zero as the wheels are not rotating.
Thought they used a 'Doppler'-type system because of the ERTMS, so axle/wheel rotation isn't necessary to measure speed?
 

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