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MML Electrification: progress updates

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duffield

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Hopefully that makes the timetable a bit more reliable south of Kettering. Unless they just get stuck behind a Thameslink...
Can the Thameslink Class 700s run at 110mph as well, or be uprated to do so?

Can the Thameslink Class 700s run at 110mph as well, or be uprated to do so?
Not at the moment. Whether it would be considered worth it to modify the fleet for the sake of 3 seconds a mile over a relatively short distance is another matter.
 
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Nottingham59

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Hopefully that makes the timetable a bit more reliable south of Kettering. Unless they just get stuck behind a Thameslink...
They always get stuck behind a Thameslink. EMR lost out when they recast the MML timetable to favour Thameslink, and many EMR paths have allowances to accommodate Thameslink timings.
 

Nottingham59

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I've seen various pegs in the Up Slow Cess between Wigston and East Midlands Parkway, presumably for future mast locations, while on the train south earlier today.
Good to hear, thanks.

Did you see any between Wigston and Syston? Or were they north of Syston, between there and Parkway?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Speaking as an amateur , often find a 700 on the down fast can coast from the M25 to St Albans City and still retain timings ........(not that one would rely on that !)
 

Bald Rick

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They always get stuck behind a Thameslink.

Not ”always”. indeed i have been on more Thameslink services than i care to rememeber that have been stuck behind an EMR.

Speaking as an amateur , often find a 700 on the down fast can coast from the M25 to St Albans City and still retain timings ........(not that one would rely on that !)

Off leak perhaps, Guv, but not in the peak. Drivers need to be “on it” to keep time on the DF at peak time.
 

Peter Sarf

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If that were the case I'd imagine there would simply be an instruction issued restricting 810s to 100mph maximum on this section.
The 810 were iirc designed with enough diesel power to perform as well as a 221 (ie accelerate to 125mph). So until the 1980s 100mph wiring is tensioned correctly from Mill Hill to Bedford for 125mph operation the only way the 810s can fit in the timetable is by running on diesel where it is expected speeds will exceed 100mph. The re-tensioning etc is in hand.
 

Bald Rick

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The 810 were iirc designed with enough diesel power to perform as well as a 221 (ie accelerate to 125mph). So until the 1980s 100mph wiring is tensioned correctly from Mill Hill to Bedford for 125mph operation the only way the 810s can fit in the timetable is by running on diesel where it is expected speeds will exceed 100mph. The re-tensioning etc is in hand.

Not quite.

The 810s will fit in the timetable better if they run at 100mph max, as they are often deliberately pathed out due to catching up Thameslink services ahead.
 

Peter Sarf

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Not quite.

The 810s will fit in the timetable better if they run at 100mph max, as they are often deliberately pathed out due to catching up Thameslink services ahead.
That makes me wonder why the re-tensioning from Mill Hill to Bedford is needed ?.
 

baz962

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That makes me wonder why the re-tensioning from Mill Hill to Bedford is needed ?.
To be fair though , it's not always behind the Thameslink and if the Emr service is a bit late and the Thameslink is way ahead then you can have recovery time. Also most of the time the Thameslink is out of the way at Harpenden and the Emr can stretch its legs.
 

Spartacus

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To be fair though , it's not always behind the Thameslink and if the Emr service is a bit late and the Thameslink is way ahead then you can have recovery time. Also most of the time the Thameslink is out of the way at Harpenden and the Emr can stretch its legs.

Yeah, the Sheffield's usually have a clear path from Harpenden Junction where the Bedfords go inside. Or at least they do until the catch the Corby up. Are the 360s being kept? If they are that'll make that issue even worse, unless the new timetable will allow them to run on the slows North of Bedford.
 

Vexed

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Are the 360s being kept? If they are that'll make that issue even worse, unless the new timetable will allow them to run on the slows North of Bedford.
Yes they will be kept for the foreseeable future. But they are 110mph capable so should benefit (slightly) from faster running on the old OLE south of Bedford. They won't go on the slows north of Bedford as they are, well, too slow compared to the fasts.
 

Merle Haggard

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Yeah, the Sheffield's usually have a clear path from Harpenden Junction where the Bedfords go inside. Or at least they do until the catch the Corby up. Are the 360s being kept? If they are that'll make that issue even worse, unless the new timetable will allow them to run on the slows North of Bedford.

Remember that the Corby trains provide a connection into the Nottingham ones at Kettering for passengers from stations Luton A.P. > Wellingborough. These connection Northbound generally work at the moment, but would be broken by slow line (=75 m.p.h.) running.
If the Corby trains are on time they will not delay the Sheffield ones (that's how there timetable works) , and the delays to Corby trains (once they have left St. Pancras) can only be caused by late running Thameslink trains. The Corby trains, in those circumstances, aren't the cause of delay.
 

Spartacus

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Remember that the Corby trains provide a connection into the Nottingham ones at Kettering for passengers from stations Luton A.P. > Wellingborough. These connection Northbound generally work at the moment, but would be broken by slow line (=75 m.p.h.) running.
If the Corby trains are on time they will not delay the Sheffield ones (that's how there timetable works) , and the delays to Corby trains (once they have left St. Pancras) can only be caused by late running Thameslink trains. The Corby trains, in those circumstances, aren't the cause of delay.

Course it generally works, as the Nottingham has to follow the Sheffield which follows the Corby. If the Corby's late the others two are late.

Plus a good number of the schedules aren't exactly rules compliant at Kettering South Jn (3 minutes headway vice 4.5 in some cases, although the whole timetable doesn't stand up to much close scrutiny in fairness), the 360s aren't the most reliable and often drop time between Bedford and Wellingborough.

I've sometimes wondered if adding a stop in the Nottinghams at Wellingborough might be an idea, and moving the connection to there, (a few rough ex-planning calculations suggest it might work, especially as the Nottinghams are usually pathed out behind the Sheffields anyway, but the problem then would be getting the path across Sharnbrook Jn onto the slows. That's getting far too speculative for this though, I think.
 

baz962

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Yes they will be kept for the foreseeable future. But they are 110mph capable so should benefit (slightly) from faster running on the old OLE south of Bedford. They won't go on the slows north of Bedford as they are, well, too slow compared to the fasts.
Extra 7-8 minutes on the slow between Bedford and Wellingborough. Also it goes from 4 aspect to 3 aspect signalling on the fast at Wellingborough and that slows things down a fair bit if trains are close together.
 

Merle Haggard

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Course it generally works, as the Nottingham has to follow the Sheffield which follows the Corby. If the Corby's late the others two are late.

Plus a good number of the schedules aren't exactly rules compliant at Kettering South Jn (3 minutes headway vice 4.5 in some cases, although the whole timetable doesn't stand up to much close scrutiny in fairness), the 360s aren't the most reliable and often drop time between Bedford and Wellingborough.

I've sometimes wondered if adding a stop in the Nottinghams at Wellingborough might be an idea, and moving the connection to there, (a few rough ex-planning calculations suggest it might work, especially as the Nottinghams are usually pathed out behind the Sheffields anyway, but the problem then would be getting the path across Sharnbrook Jn onto the slows. That's getting far too speculative for this though, I think.

On your first line, I accept that but it wasn't the point I was making; at present the timetable provides a connection when everything runes to time, but routing via the slow lines at their lower line speed would break that connection as booked in the timetable:-

Extra 7-8 minutes on the slow between Bedford and Wellingborough. Also it goes from 4 aspect to 3 aspect signalling on the fast at Wellingborough and that slows things down a fair bit if trains are close together.

The connection at Kettering at the moment is 6 minutes so passengers off the Corby train might just be able to see their former connecting train leave...


The Down trains I catch from Wellingborough, travelling once a week after mid-day, all cross Fast to Slow at Wellingborough North and seem to be timetabled to do so. but I am not sure what the parameters for choosing between Wellingborough N and Kettering S are. Crossing at Wellingborough N. is from a standing start and so blocks the Up Fast for longer than at Kettering S, where it's approached at line speed (before obviously easing for the xing). Setting the road to cross seems to happen some minutes before the Corby arrives at Wellingboro' too, so, if there's passenger assistance required or other delay, it can knock a train on the Up Fast which would not happen with better regulation.

The loss of time (1') between Bedford and Wellingborough might be caused by the sometimes very cautious approach to the latter - understandably.
 

Spartacus

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The Down trains I catch from Wellingborough, travelling once a week after mid-day, all cross Fast to Slow at Wellingborough North and seem to be timetabled to do so. but I am not sure what the parameters for choosing between Wellingborough N and Kettering S are. Crossing at Wellingborough N. is from a standing start and so blocks the Up Fast for longer than at Kettering S, where it's approached at line speed (before obviously easing for the xing). Setting the road to cross seems to happen some minutes before the Corby arrives at Wellingboro' too, so, if there's passenger assistance required or other delay, it can knock a train on the Up Fast which would not happen with better regulation.

The loss of time (1') between Bedford and Wellingborough might be caused by the sometimes very cautious approach to the latter - understandably.

The majority are booked to cross at Kettering South but there's a few planned to do so at Wellingborough North too. It's not QUITE a clockface timetable, which makes the difference, depending on how far the Sheffield is behind at Wellingborough, but as the Corby's always booked to cross quite close to the Nottingham - St Pancras coming the other way just a small amount of delay to either, or both, can make the difference in where it's crossed on the day too. It's all very, very tight around there, (as it is with the GTRs further south), with most wanting to use the fast lines, with the slows somewhat underused apart from most freight and a few Up Corbys which are booked on the slows to Sharnbrook.

All in all it produces quite a domino effect just from sometimes being one or two minutes down. Now if the Corbys could be accelerated more than the other services that'd solve much of the bunching around Kettering and Wellingborough, but it seems it'll be the other way around, which could make it worse; if the Up trains are accelerated then the Up Sheffield will conflict with the Down Corby

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Extra 7-8 minutes on the slow between Bedford and Wellingborough. Also it goes from 4 aspect to 3 aspect signalling on the fast at Wellingborough and that slows things down a fair bit if trains are close together.

I was thinking just SL from Sharnbrook, which would cost 5-6 minutes, and the Nottingham could call at Wellingborough for the connection. BUT, there's no space in the current timetable to cross at Sharnbrook, and with the Sheffield behind you can't wait. Once things are speeded up though that might be a potential solution, I don't know.
 

Merle Haggard

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The majority are booked to cross at Kettering South but there's a few planned to do so at Wellingborough North too. It's not QUITE a clockface timetable, which makes the difference, depending on how far the Sheffield is behind at Wellingborough, but as the Corby's always booked to cross quite close to the Nottingham - St Pancras coming the other way just a small amount of delay to either, or both, can make the difference in where it's crossed on the day too. It's all very, very tight around there, (as it is with the GTRs further south), with most wanting to use the fast lines, with the slows somewhat underused apart from most freight and a few Up Corbys which are booked on the slows to Sharnbrook.

All in all it produces quite a domino effect just from sometimes being one or two minutes down. Now if the Corbys could be accelerated more than the other services that'd solve much of the bunching around Kettering and Wellingborough, but it seems it'll be the other way around, which could make it worse; if the Up trains are accelerated then the Up Sheffield will conflict with the Down Corby

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I was thinking just SL from Sharnbrook, which would cost 5-6 minutes, and the Nottingham could call at Wellingborough for the connection. BUT, there's no space in the current timetable to cross at Sharnbrook, and with the Sheffield behind you can't wait. Once things are speeded up though that might be a potential solution, I don't know.

Thanks for setting out the issues. I pretty much only go North from Wellingborough now (going South is now just as bad as from Northampton) and there always seem to be conflicts between Inter City and Corby trains crossing (Down) or going out F/L (Up).
Seems strange to me that, having reinstated the missing Slow line South of Wellingborough and electrifying both Slows they're still so slow (I know it's in the name :) ) it will be a long time, I guess, before freights can be electrically hauled on this section so seems a real lost opportunity to not make them more suitable for the Corby trains. When the work was being carried out I assumed that was the aim.

Looking at Corby trains today on the down at a glance it seems that they generally left St Pancras right time but there were some a few minutes down at Wellingborough, with the delays accrued around Luton. As they're the first of the E.M.R. tranche each half hour, it can only be caused by Thameslink.
 

baz962

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The majority are booked to cross at Kettering South but there's a few planned to do so at Wellingborough North too. It's not QUITE a clockface timetable, which makes the difference, depending on how far the Sheffield is behind at Wellingborough, but as the Corby's always booked to cross quite close to the Nottingham - St Pancras coming the other way just a small amount of delay to either, or both, can make the difference in where it's crossed on the day too. It's all very, very tight around there, (as it is with the GTRs further south), with most wanting to use the fast lines, with the slows somewhat underused apart from most freight and a few Up Corbys which are booked on the slows to Sharnbrook.

All in all it produces quite a domino effect just from sometimes being one or two minutes down. Now if the Corbys could be accelerated more than the other services that'd solve much of the bunching around Kettering and Wellingborough, but it seems it'll be the other way around, which could make it worse; if the Up trains are accelerated then the Up Sheffield will conflict with the Down Corby

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



I was thinking just SL from Sharnbrook, which would cost 5-6 minutes, and the Nottingham could call at Wellingborough for the connection. BUT, there's no space in the current timetable to cross at Sharnbrook, and with the Sheffield behind you can't wait. Once things are speeded up though that might be a potential solution, I don't know.
I have never really timed it from Sharnbrook although I have been taken that way on the up from Wellingborough a couple of times recently . Problem with Sharnbrook is getting checked down as it's 20 over from 110 linespeed so not a great deal quicker.
 

edwin_m

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The majority are booked to cross at Kettering South but there's a few planned to do so at Wellingborough North too. It's not QUITE a clockface timetable, which makes the difference, depending on how far the Sheffield is behind at Wellingborough, but as the Corby's always booked to cross quite close to the Nottingham - St Pancras coming the other way just a small amount of delay to either, or both, can make the difference in where it's crossed on the day too. It's all very, very tight around there, (as it is with the GTRs further south), with most wanting to use the fast lines, with the slows somewhat underused apart from most freight and a few Up Corbys which are booked on the slows to Sharnbrook.

All in all it produces quite a domino effect just from sometimes being one or two minutes down. Now if the Corbys could be accelerated more than the other services that'd solve much of the bunching around Kettering and Wellingborough, but it seems it'll be the other way around, which could make it worse; if the Up trains are accelerated then the Up Sheffield will conflict with the Down Corby
I think the OLE changes make it better in fact. The 360s will be able to do 110mph instead of 100mph for a significant part of their journey south of Bedford (assuming the timetable doesn't catch them up with a Thameslink, and even if it did they could use the speed to recover from an earlier delay). The 810s will only gain whatever the difference is between their diesel and electric timings, which is likely to be a smaller figure considering they were specified to match 222 performance on diesel.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this is an electrification update thread.

We do welcome spin-off discussions; we just ask that someone creates a new thread for these, please.

Many thanks:)
 

sharpley

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I've seen various pegs in the Up Slow Cess between Wigston and East Midlands Parkway, presumably for future mast locations, while on the train south earlier today.
There are wooden pegs at Leicester station, took a photo of one between platforms 2 & 3 at the London Road bridge end. It has some numbers written on them, presumably a location or mast number.
 

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Nottingham59

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There are wooden pegs at Leicester station, took a photo of one between platforms 2 & 3 at the London Road bridge end. It has some numbers written on them, presumably a location or mast number.
That's really to good to see movement in the section between Syston and Wigston. Am I right to assume that pegs marked like that means the designers have now planned where the masts will be?

(Or could a peg marked "195.394" be useful at the surveying stage?)
 

sharpley

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That's really to good to see movement in the section between Syston and Wigston. Am I right to assume that pegs marked like that means the designers have now planned where the masts will be?

(Or could a peg marked "195.394" be useful at the surveying stage?)
Not sure how they normally label masts tbh. The peg in my photo is marked '159 394 DF'. It was located near the main stairs onto the platforms so not too far from London Road bridge
 

eastwestdivide

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For what it’s worth, 159km is about 99 miles, the distance from St P to Leicester.
Whether it’s a measurement for electrification or some other civils work, [shrug emoji]
 
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