Cross Country treating customers as sardines

[Trainbike46]

Of all the TOCs, XC would seem to be the ones who would benefit the most from bimodal IETs, yet they aren't getting any. Some new rolling stock, preferably to supplement the existing Voyager fleet, would not go amiss here.

In my view, if XC were to get new stock, it should just be a full fleet replacement and dump the voyagers at the end of the lease. Replace them with something with Level-boarding, bimode, and ideally that is cheaper to operate / needs less staff (e.g., something with 1 guard and 1 driver, and potentially someone working the buffet if one is included - no double manning should be needed)

 

[Trainbike46]

I think there's an underestimation of the effect 12 extra 221's will make with around 30 diagrams out of 50 or so seeing an increase in seats of 30% to 45% ish. That's 2/3's of services seeing a significant increase.

Assuming 10 in service daily that should allow 20 * 4 car diagrams to go to 5 car offering 30% more seats and 10 * 5 car to double 4 car sets offering 45% more seats.

That will make a significant difference to crowding on many routes. The key will be managing demand between trains and ensuring 4 cars are used on the diagrams with least demand.

Clearly it will be an improvement

I do wonder why they didn't get all 20 (or 18, while GC has 2) ex-avanti voyagers

 

[A S Leib]

True, interestingly despite it "seeming" a faster route those services don't seem to have a significantly faster journey time to Reading.

Going via Coventry's only around four miles longer, and I think the bit between Bordesley and New Street's rather slow.

 

[Tetragon213]

In my view, if XC were to get new stock, it should just be a full fleet replacement and dump the voyagers at the end of the lease. Replace them with something with Level-boarding, bimode, and ideally that is cheaper to operate / needs less staff (e.g., something with 1 guard and 1 driver, and potentially someone working the buffet if one is included - no double manning should be needed)

Believe me, I would love to see the backs of the Voyagers, but otoh any train is better than no train at all. The Voyagers still have (some) life left in them, might as well make the best use from them and try to alleviate XC's cataclysmic overcrowding issues.

 

[Mainline421]

Would anyone wittingly book a ticket for a journey of any length over half an hour, in the certain knowledge that they would have to stand?

Yes, I would.

It seems to be the policy of Cross Country to cram as many passengers as possible into too short trains. More often than not one first class and three second class carriages trains are overflowing. Attempting to get from Birmingham New St to Oxford using the 12:03 17 November 2024 I along with other passengers was left on the platform. The train was late and became even later as passengers pushed and shoved to get aboard before the doors shut.

The only way to fix this in the medium term would be to price people off, which isn't really something I could support. As a semi-regular user of this route I would admit that it might make sense to remove advances apart from evening and early morning to actually try spreading demand though. In the 5 or 6 journeys I've done this year it's been 'full and standing' in Standard every time on the Reading-Birmingham section.

 

[A S Leib]

Apart from between York and Newcastle (a third London service and restoration of Manchester Airport – Newcastle services depending on the ECML recast), are there any plans to increase other operators' services on XC routes? I think GWR wanted all of their Cardiff – Taunton services to run at least as far as Exeter and Chiltern wanted an Oxford – Birmingham service eventually, but I don't know how realistic they are. That wouldn't solve cases where CrossCountry's the only operator or of journeys between regions, but would at least reduce pressure at the extremities of the XC network.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Are XC still planning to bring back the pre-covid timetable next year? That might help a little.

 

[12LDA28C]

In fact some of the trains to Oxford/Reading do bypass Coventry and go straight to Leamington Spa

Not so much 'bypassing' Coventry - being routed via the more direct route via Solihull instead.

 

[crablab]

I think there's an underestimation of the effect 12 extra 221's will make

When are these due to arrive?
And what's the progress on the wider refurbishment of the existing fleet?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are XC still planning to bring back the pre-covid timetable next year? That might help a little.

They aren’t really going 100%. Their latest track access application has been discussed in a number of threads, and it does not include a number of the 2019 features. There are no extensions from/to Guildford or Bath, none of the Reading services extend to/from Southampton, I believe certain service extensions within Scotland are removed, and the Reading to Newcastle service will only run all the way in alternate hours, the others being cut short at York - that last bit comes from details discussed in the ECML timetable thread.

 

[A S Leib]

They aren’t really going 100%. Their latest track access application has been discussed in a number of threads, and it does not include a number of the 2019 features. There are no extensions from/to Guildford or Bath, none of the Reading services extend to/from Southampton, I believe certain service extensions within Scotland are removed, and the Reading to Newcastle service will only run all the way in alternate hours, the others being cut short at York - that last bit comes from details discussed in the ECML timetable thread.

Of course Bath was a very limited XC service anyway, but I think Bristol – Westbury GWR services are now 3 tph (up from 2 tph plus a few daily South Western services pre-Covid), so that seems fair. I'm guessing Newquay services won't return either, and that the third London – Newcastle service is the reason for cutting some Reading services at York.

 

[BREMENMURRAY]

Yes, I would.

The only way to fix this in the medium term would be to price people off, which isn't really something I could support. As a semi-regular user of this route I would admit that it might make sense to remove advances apart from evening and early morning to actually try spreading demand though. In the 5 or 6 journeys I've done this year it's been 'full and standing' in Standard every time on the Reading-Birmingham section.

Another aspect of this is other companies cancelling trains.When Chiltern cancel trains from Birmingham Moor St all the passengers for Leamington Spa and Banbury move to the Cross Country trains.Same within the West Midlands.When trains are cancelled everyone moves to the next train whether they have a ticket for that company or not

 

[Wolfie]

Believe me, I would love to see the backs of the Voyagers, but otoh any train is better than no train at all. The Voyagers still have (some) life left in them, might as well make the best use from them and try to alleviate XC's cataclysmic overcrowding issues.

The Voyagers, or indeed the class 22Xs in general are not so bad. The big problem is that they were never, for financial reasons, long enough.

Hypothetically, and some folk will doubtless point out issues as certain stations, all of the 22Xs going to XC and being reconfigured as 6 or 7 car units would likely go a long way towards addressing XCs issues.

Yes, some driving cars would go out of use but you'd have longer trains and address the staffing issues too.

 

[Trainbike46]

The Voyagers, or indeed the class 22Xs in general are not so bad. The big problem is that they were never, for financial reasons, long enough.

I partially agree, in that they were never long enough. However, the issue is compounded by their low density (compare the seats per metre length between a voyager and an 80x or pendolino - the difference is massive). And there is no real way to resolve that.

Hypothetically, and some folk will doubtless point out issues as certain stations, all of the 22Xs going to XC and being reconfigured as 6 or 7 car units would likely go a long way towards addressing XCs issues.

Yes, some driving cars would go out of use but you'd have longer trains and address the staffing issues too.

If XC took all the 220s, 221s and 222s that would resolve the capacity issues, that is for sure. If even you don't reform you could run everything in multiple

 

[Tetragon213]

The Voyagers, or indeed the class 22Xs in general are not so bad. The big problem is that they were never, for financial reasons, long enough.

Hypothetically, and some folk will doubtless point out issues as certain stations, all of the 22Xs going to XC and being reconfigured as 6 or 7 car units would likely go a long way towards addressing XCs issues.

Yes, some driving cars would go out of use but you'd have longer trains and address the staffing issues too.

In such a scenario, I wonder if it would be possible to reconfigure the leftover driving cars as 2-car units for less heavily trafficked lines? Waste not want not, after all.

 

[Snow1964]

I think there's an underestimation of the effect 12 extra 221's will make

In reality for next 2 or 3 years, effectively nearer 8, than 12, as 3 or 4 will be stopped for refurbishment on rolling basis.

And by time refurbs end, some of the fleet will be about 27 years old, an age where spares procurement can be delayed, meaning repairs take longer so spares pool needs to grow.

Therefore unlikely ever to get upto 11 or 12 extra units in service.

 

[Western Sunset]

A more accurate thread title would be ‘DfT Treating XC Trains As Sardine Tins’.

XC only does as instructed.

At least all the sardines fit into the tin and none are ever left behind..

 

[Wolfie]

In such a scenario, I wonder if it would be possible to reconfigure the leftover driving cars as 2-car units for less heavily trafficked lines? Waste not want not, after all.

I suspect that such a unit would be horribly overpowered, burn fuel for fun for very few seats and, based on comments l've seen about other classes, might well have braking issues.

 

[Wolfie]

In reality for next 2 or 3 years, effectively nearer 8, than 12, as 3 or 4 will be stopped for refurbishment on rolling basis.

And by time refurbs end, some of the fleet will be about 27 years old, an age where spares procurement can be delayed, meaning repairs take longer so spares pool needs to grow.

Therefore unlikely ever to get upto 11 or 12 extra units in service.

Not to mention that seven are merely to replace the HSTs and retain the status quo capacity-wise.

 

[Snow1964]

In such a scenario, I wonder if it would be possible to reconfigure the leftover driving cars as 2-car units for less heavily trafficked lines? Waste not want not, after all.

I suggested something similar few months back, but with 6 car units and 3 car units. With the short units as all standard class and only used as strengthening in the core (eg north of Bristol and Reading etc).

However it got rubbished by certain members as there was no easy locations to split the trains and put the unit into a siding until next train going other way.

But I am still of the opinion that 4car voyagers, not in multiple in busy core section is a dreadful idea

 

[basfordlad]

I've just booked the Cardiff to Edinburgh experience for the end of January, in standard class! I do have a seat reservation all the way but if I get up for the loo, which I'm bound to have to once or twice, what's the chances of getting through to it, or still having a seat when I get back?

Get a seat frog upgrade

 

[Doctor Fegg]

A more accurate thread title would be ‘DfT Treating XC Trains As Sardine Tins’.

XC only does as instructed.

Though it’s remarkable how, all through the various eras of franchising, the common thread among TOCs that have delivered nothing has been… Arriva.

Even Central Trains, perhaps the most lambasted of the original franchises (Connex aside), ordered 170s. Arriva CrossCountry? Arriva Trains Wales? Arriva Northern? Nowt.

 

[A S Leib]

Get a seat frog upgrade

It doesn't seem to work as through upgrades for trains splitting / combining, but an instant upgrade's £48 for Edinburgh – Gloucester for comparison's sake.

Though it’s remarkable how, all through the various eras of franchising, the common thread among TOCs that have delivered nothing has been… Arriva.

Even Central Trains, perhaps the most lambasted of the original franchises (Connex aside), ordered 170s. Arriva CrossCountry? Arriva Trains Wales? Arriva Northern? Nowt.

I think all of the Chiltern improvements were pre-Arriva as well, with Oxford services being the only new bit under Arriva.

 

[JonathanH]

Even Central Trains, perhaps the most lambasted of the original franchises (Connex aside), ordered 170s.

A fair number of those 170s are with CrossCountry. I'm not sure what your point is. At the same time as Central Trains was taking on 170s, it was releasing other units and CrossCountry was taking on 22x units.

Arriva CrossCountry? Arriva Trains Wales? Arriva Northern? Nowt.

Did any of the bidders for the 2007 CrossCountry franchise intend to take on new rolling stock? (CrossCountry took on five HSTs specifically to address overcrowding.) Was there DfT funding for them to do so? It was just bidding against a specification, which entailed a subsidy over eight years of over £1bn.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2007-07-10/debates/07071042000003/RailwaysCross-CountryFranchise

The department is today announcing that Arriva Trains Cross Country Ltd has been awarded the new cross-country franchise. The new franchise combines most of the existing cross-country services currently operated by Virgin Cross Country and some services currently operated by Central Trains.

The contract will begin on 11 November 2007 and run for eight years and four months with the option for the Department for Transport (DfT) to terminate the contract after six years if performance targets are not met. The DfT will pay Arriva Trains Cross Country Ltd a subsidy of £1.056 billion.

The contract which DfT has signed will add capacity by nearly 3,000 seats each day on key routes at the busiest times by June 2009. Most additional seating capacity will be provided by reintroducing high-speed trains to the network. These trains will be refurbished to the standard of the Voyager trains used on current cross country services; further seating capacity and additional luggage space will be added by modifying the Voyager fleet. The Stansted-Birmingham and Nottingham-Cardiff routes will see refurbished trains by June 2009 featuring more seats, and new first class accommodation.

A new timetable will be introduced in December 2008 based on the route structure specified developed by a cross-industry group to maximise the benefits of the west coast main line modernisation. Arriva Trains Cross Country Ltd will offer a limited number of service extensions above and beyond the minimum specification maintaining some current direct journey opportunities which were not included in the franchise specification.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Voyagers, or indeed the class 22Xs in general are not so bad. The big problem is that they were never, for financial reasons, long enough.

Hypothetically, and some folk will doubtless point out issues as certain stations, all of the 22Xs going to XC and being reconfigured as 6 or 7 car units would likely go a long way towards addressing XCs issues.

Yes, some driving cars would go out of use but you'd have longer trains and address the staffing issues too.

Even the 7 car 222s have a woeful seating capacity.
A 5 car 802 has a lot more seats

 

[Harpo]

Though it’s remarkable how, all through the various eras of franchising, the common thread among TOCs that have delivered nothing has been… Arriva.

Even Central Trains, perhaps the most lambasted of the original franchises (Connex aside), ordered 170s. Arriva CrossCountry? Arriva Trains Wales? Arriva Northern? Nowt.

That’s an interesting observation. Maybe Arriva’s speciality is austerity TOCs?

 

[mjc]

I’m a regular commuter between Stoke and Birmingham so use Cross Country as there’s little alternative. The London Northwestern from Crewe, which is days gone by was direct to Euston then curtailed to Birmingham now doesn’t go beyond Stafford, so entails a change.
The voyager stock is decent, just too little of it. Even on peak arrivals into Birmingham from the North it’s occasionally a 4 car service and afternoon peak departures going North from Birmingham are regularly packed with people standing all down the aisle and the vestibule crammed. Some of this is short hops to Wolverhampton but it’s by no means empty and generally still standing room only to at least Stafford.
I generally reserve a seat (thank you GWR!) but often coming home can’t even get near it.
Capacity is the issue, I’ve complained several times to XC, they say stock is dictated by DfT; I’ve complained to DfT and they say stock is the choice of the TOC.
We have a new (Labour) MP; I’ve written to her setting out the problem and the finger pointing which has gone on and asked her to work with the parties to identify who really does call the shots and then to pressure them to improve the situation.
I’d encourage everyone experiencing issues to do the same to start to build the pressure.

 

[Harpo]

I’ve complained several times to XC, they say stock is dictated by DfT; I’ve complained to DfT and they say stock is the choice of the TOC.
.

I’ll bet DfT didn’t confess to controlling the rolling stock budget and quantity of vehicles!

 

[Trainbike46]

That’s an interesting observation. Maybe Arriva’s speciality is austerity TOCs?

The 195s got ordered by Arriva Northern, didn't they? - the no growth era was Serco-Abellio if memory serves

 

[fairlie]

I’m a regular commuter between Stoke and Birmingham so use Cross Country as there’s little alternative. The London Northwestern from Crewe, which is days gone by was direct to Euston then curtailed to Birmingham now doesn’t go beyond Stafford, so entails a change.
The voyager stock is decent, just too little of it. Even on peak arrivals into Birmingham from the North it’s occasionally a 4 car service and afternoon peak departures going North from Birmingham are regularly packed with people standing all down the aisle and the vestibule crammed. Some of this is short hops to Wolverhampton but it’s by no means empty and generally still standing room only to at least Stafford.
I generally reserve a seat (thank you GWR!) but often coming home can’t even get near it.
Capacity is the issue, I’ve complained several times to XC, they say stock is dictated by DfT; I’ve complained to DfT and they say stock is the choice of the TOC.
We have a new (Labour) MP; I’ve written to her setting out the problem and the finger pointing which has gone on and asked her to work with the parties to identify who really does call the shots and then to pressure them to improve the situation.
I’d encourage everyone experiencing issues to do the same to start to build the pressure.

I've complained several times to XC about overcrowding. My most recent was a journey from Reading to Leamington Spa - I had a seat reservation which I managed to occupy but the aisles were all so full of people and luggage that it was an absolute battle to get off and I nearly didn't manage it before the train went. I've written back again after their initial 'sorry you had an uncomfortable journey' response and will see what comes back this time. For a TOC that has several critical routes, it's absurd that it's allowed to have such poor standards.