Cross Country treating customers as sardines

[norbitonflyer]

I believe Lumo is reservation only, and it seems to work. Would anyone wittingly book a ticket for a journey of any length over half an hour, in the certain knowledge that they would have to stand? I don't see the problem with reservation only, at least you know you're getting a seat.

Many people don't know when they will be travelling until the last minute. Plans may change, meetings over-run, planes be late, people die, or you may just decide to extend or cut short your day out because of the weather.
Lumo is not reservation only. Open tickets are valid (or they wouldn't be open, would they?) but unlike other operators they do not keep an unreserved carriage, so it's pot luck whether any seats will be available for turn-up-and-go passengers.

 

[Wolfie]

Apart from the 12 Voyagers transferring from AWC there isn’t really much hope on the horizon. Any additional capacity will soon be swallowed up on many XC routes as passenger numbers continue to grow.

To be honest all of the Avanti Voyagers should have gone to XC. That would have significantly improved matters. I fear that the issue is that XC loses money heavily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest all of the Avanti Voyagers should have gone to XC. That would have significantly improved matters. I fear that the issue is that XC loses money heavily.

Ironically in my view they'd be able to (a) charge more, and (b) sell more tickets, if they weren't so utterly rubbish.

 

[Starmill]

1827 from Plymouth to Birmingham has about 50 passengers aboard leaving Plymouth this evening, which is where the long trains needed during the day would be overprovision at other times. No doubt at some point during its journey from Glasgow this morning it was full.

Back in the day this service was usually a bargain price to travel on. An Advance single to Totnes for example could be had nearly any day for £3 or Exeter for £5, as late as 10 minutes before departure. Even today it is still possible to get the MES Advance but closer to departure it's now quite expensive to travel on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1827 from Plymouth to Birmingham has about 50 passengers aboard leaving Plymouth this evening, which is where the long trains needed during the day would be overprovision at other times. No doubt at some point during its journey from Glasgow this morning it was full.

That's no great issue. Shunting costs money, so generally trains stay long if that's what they are doing for most of the day. The late evening weekday Pendolinos out of Euston are very quiet too (Saturday is a very different story!)

 

[Wolfie]

Ironically in my view they'd be able to (a) charge more, and (b) sell more tickets, if they weren't so utterly rubbish.

Certainly sell more. Their existing ticket prices are bloody high.

 

[dk1]

Certainly sell more. Their existing ticket prices are bloody high.

But trains are overcrowded.

 

[StarCrossing]

I've just booked the Cardiff to Edinburgh experience for the end of January, in standard class! I do have a seat reservation all the way but if I get up for the loo, which I'm bound to have to once or twice, what's the chances of getting through to it, or still having a seat when I get back?

As I understand it, that service will have at least 4 carriages between Cardiff and Birmingham (rather than the usual 2-3) and then at least 8 carriages between Birmingham and Edinburgh (which is usually plenty even for this busy route). Unless there are cancellations or an event, you should be fine. Might be worth a look at Seat Frog though to see if there's a cheap upgrade going.

 

[Jimini]

That's no great issue. Shunting costs money, so generally trains stay long if that's what they are doing for most of the day. The late evening weekday Pendolinos out of Euston are very quiet too (Saturday is a very different story!)

That's because there aren't any "late evening" Pendolinos on a Saturday!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Back in the day this service was usually a bargain price to travel on. An Advance single to Totnes for example could be had nearly any day for £3 or Exeter for £5, as late as 10 minutes before departure. Even today it is still possible to get the MES Advance but closer to departure it's now quite expensive to travel on.

This highlights something that puzzles me about XC pricing.
They might be thought of as a service for the long-distance passenger, the trains are always full - so you would think that short distance travel, particularly across interchange points, would be discouraged. On the contrary, they seem to encourage them - as well as the above the Birmingham International - Wolverhampton fare tomorrow is about £7 and Manchester Picc to Stoke can be as cheap as just over £5
To me it defeats logic, but helps to explain the overcrowding problem.

 

[Mogz]

It seems to be the policy of Cross Country to cram as many passengers as possible into too short trains. More often than not one first class and three second class carriages trains are overflowing. Attempting to get from Birmingham New St to Oxford using the 12:03 17 November 2024 I along with other passengers was left on the platform. The train was late and became even later as passengers pushed and shoved to get aboard before the doors shut.

As a regular (several times a week) user of the CrossCountry services (between various destinations) and other TOCs (as well as being well travelled by train the UK and Europe, and having been around long enough to remember Intercity XC), I’ve been saying this for years.

In Germany, for instance, comparable long distance routes are served by comfortable, long distance regional express trains with a good mix of airline, table and compartment style seating in both classes with restaurant cars.

Until the early 2000s CrossCountry services used old but comfortable hand-me down stock which were longer than at present and had a buffet.

But there are always plenty of reasons articulated on here why in the UK we just can’t afford/don’t deserve such services here.

Realistically, I would hope that a 7 or 9 car IET service would be possible in the medium to long term. This would at least increase capacity, improve leg room and stop running diesel under the wires.

The Voyagers really did take all of the pleasure out of long distance rail travel in this country.

 

[12LDA28C]

It has been like this for the best part of 20 years.

Or in fact, since the awful Voyagers were introduced in 2002.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I only travel with Cross Country when I have no alternative.
The other week my wife and eight friends wanted to go from Leicester to Newcastle and back, I directed them to go via Peterborough, OK, I know CC to PBO but it was better than being in a four car Plymouth to Edinburgh sardine special.

Agree on that, I live in the Leicester area and would rather travel to the ECML to use LNER for frequent trips to the north east rather than the "obvious" Leicester - Derby - Newcastle option.

 

[saismee]

A potentially (certainly) crazy idea... if a lot of XC journeys are > 30min and most have to stand anyway, is there any downside to including a coach without *any* seating? It'd be strongly suggested that anyone on a longer journey should be seated, but i'd imagine it could increase capacity by a lot without chairs or tables in the way. Or perhaps some seating similar to the 710s with plenty of things to hold onto? Definitely a stop-gap and a "short-term" fix (we all know it'd last way too long), but it surely could be cheap to implement.

 

[yorksrob]

Ironically in my view they'd be able to (a) charge more, and (b) sell more tickets, if they weren't so utterly rubbish.

With the best service in the world, I'm not convinced they'd be able to charge much more

 

[Tetragon213]

Of all the TOCs, XC would seem to be the ones who would benefit the most from bimodal IETs, yet they aren't getting any. Some new rolling stock, preferably to supplement the existing Voyager fleet, would not go amiss here.

Having been subjected to their ""service"" in the past while on a short-term secondment, I have come to despise XC with every fibre of my being. Maybe I was unlucky, but it felt like I was consistently arriving at the office and immediately submitting a claim for delay repay!

 

[Andy Pacer]

A potentially (certainly) crazy idea... if a lot of XC journeys are > 30min and most have to stand anyway, is there any downside to including a coach without *any* seating? It'd be strongly suggested that anyone on a longer journey should be seated, but i'd imagine it could increase capacity by a lot without chairs or tables in the way. Or perhaps some seating similar to the 710s with plenty of things to hold onto? Definitely a stop-gap and a "short-term" fix (we all know it'd last way too long), but it surely could be cheap to implement.

Sounds like the RyanAir idea of a plane with no seats!

 

[DarloRich]

Or in fact, since the awful Voyagers were introduced in 2002.

that long. It has all merged into one long, unpleasant journey!

 

[Harpo]

A more accurate thread title would be ‘DfT Treating XC Trains As Sardine Tins’.

XC only does as instructed.

 

[A S Leib]

Would anyone wittingly book a ticket for a journey of any length over half an hour, in the certain knowledge that they would have to stand?

When the alternative is having to wait two hours or days for a train which isn't fully reserved? Absolutely.

What about the New Street - Euston semi-fasts, are they still International and Coventry only before stopping at most stops to Watford?

Birmingham International, all stations to Leighton Buzzard via Northampton, and 1 tph fast to Euston and 1 tph calling at Watford Junction and Euston. The smaller stations west of Birmingham International have the Rugeley services instead.

I think I've asked this before, but could GWR's Cardiff – Taunton services all go at least to Plymouth instead of half of them going to Plymouth / Penzance and six only as far as Taunton? If GWR was running hourly Bristol – Plymouth services, and if the third hourly King's Cross – Newcastle service and Manchester Airport – Newcastle* are (re)introduced, could CrossCountry be cut back to e.g. Edinburgh – Exeter, Manchester – Bristol, Manchester – Bournemouth and York – Reading (plus Leicester / Nottingham)? Would the existing XC and Avanti Voyagers be enough for all services to be at least eight carriages with that service pattern, and how many would be needed for that to be the case with the pre-Covid service pattern (excluding Reading – Southampton on Newcastle services)?

*Although TPE has its own capacity issues.

 

[Class 317]

I think there's an underestimation of the effect 12 extra 221's will make with around 30 diagrams out of 50 or so seeing an increase in seats of 30% to 45% ish. That's 2/3's of services seeing a significant increase.

Assuming 10 in service daily that should allow 20 * 4 car diagrams to go to 5 car offering 30% more seats and 10 * 5 car to double 4 car sets offering 45% more seats.

That will make a significant difference to crowding on many routes. The key will be managing demand between trains and ensuring 4 cars are used on the diagrams with least demand.

 

[BREMENMURRAY]

It has been like this for the best part of 20 years.

This is the first time I have been left on the platform because the train was so full

 

[DarloRich]

This is the first time I have been left on the platform because the train was so full

you must be new to this galaxy

( it has happened to me before now - with both EMR and XC)

 

[BREMENMURRAY]

1827 from Plymouth to Birmingham has about 50 passengers aboard leaving Plymouth this evening, which is where the long trains needed during the day would be overprovision at other times. No doubt at some point during its journey from Glasgow this morning it was full.

These Plymouth trains tend to fill up very quickly at Exeter and Bristol

 

[nw1]

When the alternative is having to wait two hours or days for a train which isn't fully reserved? Absolutely.

Birmingham International, all stations to Leighton Buzzard via Northampton, and 1 tph fast to Euston and 1 tph calling at Watford Junction and Euston. The smaller stations west of Birmingham International have the Rugeley services instead.

Can't help thinking the old pattern (maybe going back to the 00s here) of these services running fast International to Coventry would make more sense. For one thing, it would mean an appropriately fast service from Northampton to Birmingham, for another it would give more options for fast journeys to Coventry relieving the load on XC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't help thinking the old pattern (maybe going back to the 00s here) of these services running fast International to Coventry would make more sense. For one thing, it would mean an appropriately fast service from Northampton to Birmingham, for another it would give more options for fast journeys to Coventry relieving the load on XC.

Is 5tph fast really needed? There are already in some hours and will be in most hours eventually three Avanti services, and because lots of people travel Cov<->London they generally have enough capacity.

 

[nw1]

Is 5tph fast really needed? There are already in some hours and will be in most hours eventually three Avanti services, and because lots of people travel Cov<->London they generally have enough capacity.

Was thinking more of relieving the strain on the IC (XC, Avanti) services more than anything, plus giving Northampton a fast service to Birmingham which arguably it should have.
Indeed is a third Avanti service needed, or would a better pattern be two per hour and two accelerated semi-fasts?

Presumably if they looped the stopper at International as they did in some past timetables, they could extend it to Coventry.

 

[BREMENMURRAY]

I can't see deleting Wolverhampton/International/Coventry as a good idea, as it would cut off inter-city links on XC routes from those stations.

I can see that passengers for such stations would not want to use the all-station stoppers though. What about the New Street - Euston semi-fasts, are they still International and Coventry only before stopping at most stops to Watford?

And I wonder how many of those passengers who boarded at Birmingham New Street were simply travelling to Coventry (or Birmingham International), simply using XC as it's faster than the LNR stopper. Similar issue at the Manchester end with passengers for Stoke/Macclesfield using XC rather than Northern

The only way it can be improved is ripping out some stops on the routes shared with alternative services (i.e. non-stop Stafford to Birmingham & then to Leamington Spa)

In fact some of the trains to Oxford/Reading do bypass Coventry and go straight to Leamington Spa

 

[A S Leib]

In fact some of the trains to Oxford/Reading do bypass Coventry and go straight to Leamington Spa

I think the Reading – York / Newcastle services do that because of a lack of paths rather than there being too many passengers via Coventry though.

 

[nw1]

In fact some of the trains to Oxford/Reading do bypass Coventry and go straight to Leamington Spa

True, interestingly despite it "seeming" a faster route those services don't seem to have a significantly faster journey time to Reading.