Cross Country treating customers as sardines

[yorksrob]

As others have said, by the end the 47s were extremely unreliable and the Mk2s were absolutely knackered. How much of that was Virgin refusing to pay the money to maintain them, I'll let others decide.

Yes, I remember that !

Still quite liked the mk2 interior (at least when the lights were working and you could see the decor !)

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, I remember that !

Still quite liked the mk2 interior (at least when the lights were working and you could see the decor !)

It was "fun" keeping the parts in stock for MK3 coaches when I worked at British Rail Engineering, Derby.

 

[duffield]

The staffing-related cancellations on the Voyager-operated services are a more recent development, but the overcrowding is not. The HSTs were only brought in after many years of chronic overcrowding under Virgin.


The 47s + MK2s were mostly on the south west services, either Newcastle to Bristol or Leeds to Bristol. I remember catching the 7am or so from Leeds to Birmingham to go to the Motor Show at the NEC; south of Sheffield it was rammed.

As others have said, by the end the 47s were extremely unreliable and the Mk2s were absolutely knackered. How much of that was Virgin refusing to pay the money to maintain them, I'll let others decide.


That is definitely rose-tinted glasses time! The service under Central Trains was an absolute shambles.

I wasn't going back that far. I was talking about the post Central trains era, specifically the era when the current class 170 XC operated Nottingham to Birmingham twice an hour (and on to Cardiff once an hour) service started, with pretty much the current timetable. So around 2007/2008. The service was very reliable when I used it to get to work in this era and almost never cancelled. I retired five years ago and it seems to have gone steadily downhill since then.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Had the pleasure of getting the 0704 Edinburgh - Plymouth this morning from Morpeth.

Just about full and standing at Morpeth so I bailed out at Newcastle and waited for the 0858 LNER for my journey to York. There were a vast number of people getting on at Newcastle, too.

Is this the first CrossCountry out of Edinburgh? Four cars at prime commuter time, at Christmas, isn’t acceptable.

 

[Trainman40083]

Had the pleasure of getting the 0704 Edinburgh - Plymouth this morning from Morpeth.

Just about full and standing at Morpeth so I bailed out at Newcastle and waited for the 0858 LNER for my journey to York. There were a vast number of people getting on at Newcastle, too.

Is this the first CrossCountry out of Edinburgh? Four cars at prime commuter time, at Christmas, isn’t acceptable.

But maybe the DfT see it as a way of dampening demand, by putting off potential passengers. Just like British Rail did

 

[Mogz]

But maybe the DfT see it as a way of dampening demand, by putting off potential passengers. Just like British Rail did

If this was the continent, journeys of this length would have the very best available trains.

Even if they aren’t the fastest/newest, they would most likely have:

- Comfortable second class seating with a good mix of tables and airline-style;
- Some compartment style seating for both classes (for families, groups and businesspeople);
- A buffet and/or trolly;
- A bistro style restaurant with affordable prices (not a Pullman-style affair with first class seating, more like a cafeteria);
- A decent sized baggage car for oversize luggage/bikes (half a coach length);
- Plenty of carriages.

So the kind of thing we used to have under BR, really.

 

[Trainman40083]

If this was the continent, journeys of this length would have the very best available trains.

Even if they aren’t the fastest/newest, they would most likely have:

- Comfortable second class seating with a good mix of tables and airline-style;
- Some compartment style seating for both classes (for families, groups and businesspeople);
- A buffet and/or trolly;
- A bistro style restaurant with affordable prices (not a Pullman-style affair with first class seating, more like a cafeteria);
- A decent sized baggage car for oversize luggage/bikes (half a coach length);
- Plenty of carriages.

So the kind of thing we used to have under BR, really.

Yes indeed. I was talking to someone only last month. They said how much first class passengers had dropped off. People working from home. I did wonder if that was the cause. From my side, I'd suggest an indifferent and inconsistent offering that just isn't worth the extra money. Many people say about poor Wi-fi, so if they can't work, they might as well drive and save money. No first class lounges, no decent food etc. If only they listened to the customers.

 

[Jimini]

Yes indeed. I was talking to someone only last month. They said how much first class passengers had dropped off. People working from home. I did wonder if that was the cause. From my side, I'd suggest an indifferent and inconsistent offering that just isn't worth the extra money. Many people say about poor Wi-fi, so if they can't work, they might as well drive and save money. No first class lounges, no decent food etc. If only they listened to the customers.

One thing I would say to counter that (not by much, especially when looking at revenue) is the increased numbers of people using Seatfrog or upgrading on board to 1st class to increase the chances of getting a seat, rather than being crammed in a vestibule in standard.

 

[Trainman40083]

One thing I would say to counter that (not by much, especially when looking at revenue) is the increased numbers of people using Seatfrog or upgrading on board to 1st class to increase the chances of getting a seat, rather than being crammed in a vestibule in standard.

Indeed they are. So the train operator has reduced its costs and revenue. Maybe First Class is full of Seatfrog customers. I wonder if that influences those normal first class passengers, who paid a premium? Of course, were the trains not fun sized, there would be no need to upgrade

 

[Tetragon213]

Indeed they are. So the train operator has reduced its costs and revenue. Maybe First Class is full of Seatfrog customers. I wonder if that influences those normal first class passengers, who paid a premium? Of course, were the trains not fun sized, there would be no need to upgrade

I'd argue that Seatfrog still makes them money in the long run. At least by selling a First Class seat for £7, they're getting £7 rather than £0 for an otherwise unused seat. I've seen auctions on some legs go up to well over £48, so I suspect Seatfrog probably churns out more than enough money for XC to carry on using it.

Still, it's mad that it has to come to this just to get a seat in the middle of off-peak hours. Imo, XC should not have retired their HST sets; any train is better than no train at all, imo.

 

[Trainman40083]

I'd argue that Seatfrog still makes them money in the long run. At least by selling a First Class seat for £7, they're getting £7 rather than £0 for an otherwise unused seat. I've seen auctions on some legs go up to well over £48, so I suspect Seatfrog probably churns out more than enough money for XC to carry on using it.

Still, it's mad that it has to come to this just to get a seat in the middle of off-peak hours. Imo, XC should not have retired their HST sets; any train is better than no train at all, imo.

That all suggests by constraining available seats, you get people to pay more for the same..well slightly better. Ah the HST sets the DfT told XC to get rid off. Limited crew knowledge, higher rate of failure, more expensive to run etc....but the passengers loved them. It wasn't even that bad to stand in the door area. More toilets, more luggage storage space, better ambiance.

 

[Tetragon213]

That all suggests by constraining available seats, you get people to pay more for the same..well slightly better. Ah the HST sets the DfT told XC to get rid off. Limited crew knowledge, higher rate of failure, more expensive to run etc....but the passengers loved them. It wasn't even that bad to stand in the door area. More toilets, more luggage storage space, better ambiance.

As I said, it's mad that one often has to upgrade just to sit down on XC's trains.

Meanwhile, regarding the HSTs, while I'll always be biased as the Intercity 125 is my favourite train of all time, at when XC had them, the overcrowding wasn't as bad. At this stage, however, I would take literally any train in existence to join XC's fleet; I have very much had enough of standing in vestibule class on every journey my company sends me on.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

As I said, it's mad that one often has to upgrade just to sit down on XC's trains.

Meanwhile, regarding the HSTs, while I'll always be biased as the Intercity 125 is my favourite train of all time, at when XC had them, the overcrowding wasn't as bad. At this stage, however, I would take literally any train in existence to join XC's fleet; I have very much had enough of standing in vestibule class on every journey my company sends me on.

Agreed.

I've once upgraded and spoke to a couple who paid a very hefty price for the First Class 'experience' on XC, I had got a cheap SeatFrog for the same 'experience' of no trolley service and people standing in the aisle after flooding in from the vestibule. I didn't have the heart to tell them how much I paid in comparison for the very same journey.

 

[JonathanH]

Is this the first CrossCountry out of Edinburgh? Four cars at prime commuter time, at Christmas, isn’t acceptable.

It is the second CrossCountry out of Edinburgh. While it may arrive around Newcastle in 'prime commuter time' it may not do so at other places on the route. Off-peak tickets priced by CrossCountry aren't valid until it gets to York. It is in the South West of England in the evening peak. CrossCountry has to balance the use of its 38 4-car units and 23 5-car units based on the workings for the whole day.

It may be noted that just because a train runs from Edinburgh to Plymouth that doesn't mean more people will travel on it at any given time than one from Manchester to Bournemouth.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is the second CrossCountry out of Edinburgh. While it may arrive around Newcastle in 'prime commuter time' it may not do so at other places on the route. Off-peak tickets priced by CrossCountry aren't valid until it gets to York. It is in the South West of England in the evening peak. CrossCountry has to balance the use of its 38 4-car units and 23 5-car units based on the workings for the whole day.

It may be noted that just because a train runs from Edinburgh to Plymouth that doesn't mean more people will travel on it at any given time than one from Manchester to Bournemouth.

You're kind of highlighting the problem here though - XC does not have enough stock to run all services at the length required, so they're effectively picking who is unlucky and ends up on an overcrowded service.

The short term solution is that they should take all 221s freed up at Avanti, and possibly some of the 222s when they become available from EMR.

 

[Trainman40083]

You're kind of highlighting the problem here though - XC does not have enough stock to run all services at the length required, so they're effectively picking who is unlucky and ends up on an overcrowded service.

The short term solution is that they should take all 221s freed up at Avanti, and possibly some of the 222s when they become available from EMR.

I'm sure XC would love more Voyagers, but the DfT won't sign that off. Remember that , at the moment, the XC Voyagers and 222s can't work together. Anyway, it was said elsewhere on this forum, that another train operator (that involved places like Stirling to London) were in negotiations re taking all the 222s....

 

[Falcon1200]

So the kind of thing we used to have under BR, really.

But only running once or twice a day! Difficult to imagine now but before the Voyager revolution XC services at Edinburgh via the ECML consisted of a handful (3 or 4) trains a day, unlike the hourly service offered today. The problem is that some trains will always be busier than others, and that is the conundrum XC has somehow to address.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm sure XC would love more Voyagers, but the DfT won't sign that off. Remember that , at the moment, the XC Voyagers and 222s can't work together. Anyway, it was said elsewhere on this forum, that another train operator (that involved places like Stirling to London) were in negotiations re taking all the 222s....

I heard there were negotiations for some of the 222s - And I don't imagine the Stirling operation would use all of them.

Obviously the 22s can't work in multiple with the 220/221s, however, they wouldn't need to, so I don't see why that would be a problem

 

[Tetragon213]

I can't see the 222 fleet being anywhere near enough to alleviate XC's overcrowding, especially if they're going to have to play splitsies with Scotrail.
The level of overcrowding on XC's services is beyond ridiculous at this point. From travels between home and Sheffield, leaving on Friday at around lunchtime (so the middle of off-peak hours), I was standing in vestibule class all the way from Sheffield to New Street.

 

[Mogz]

But only running once or twice a day! Difficult to imagine now but before the Voyager revolution XC services at Edinburgh via the ECML consisted of a handful (3 or 4) trains a day, unlike the hourly service offered today. The problem is that some trains will always be busier than others, and that is the conundrum XC has somehow to address.

Was it not that there was a similar frequency across “the core” (ie similar number of daily trains overall serving the NW/NE through Birmingham to the South Coast/ SW but starting and end points were more numerous and therefore had only a few through trains a day serving them?

CrossCountry also ran electric-hauled Scotland-Birmingham services as I recall.

 

[Trainbike46]

I can't see the 222 fleet being anywhere near enough to alleviate XC's overcrowding, especially if they're going to have to play splitsies with Scotrail.
The level of overcrowding on XC's services is beyond ridiculous at this point. From travels between home and Sheffield, leaving on Friday at around lunchtime (so the middle of off-peak hours), I was standing in vestibule class all the way from Sheffield to New Street.

Scotrail? Both me and the poster I was replying to were talking about the new OAO between London and Stirling

More importantly, what other fleets beyond the voyagers and the meridians are available short-term to improve capacity on XC?

Long-term, the solution would be new stock, however that will take much longer, so is not a solution short-term.

 

[Mogz]

Scotrail? Both me and the poster I was replying to were talking about the new OAO between London and Stirling

More importantly, what other fleets beyond the voyagers and the meridia.ns are available short-term to improve capacity on XC?

Long-term, the solution would be new stock, however that will take much longer, so is not a solution short-term.

Long term it needs 9 coach bi-modes (either 80x series or a longer version of the 755s would be a good start!).

I can’t see a loco-hauled option being terribly desirable but 9 coach rakes of Mk5As with a DVT at one end and a Class 88 or Class 93 at the other end would do the job.

Whatever option was chosen, in an ideal world a bi-mode unit that could operate electric via 25kV overhead and 750v DC third rail could eliminate all diesel running over electrified lines by XC, which is an environmental scandal.

Short term, XC just needs anything the industry can do for it. A seat on clapped out life-expired stock is better than standing for hours on a Voyager!

I expect long suffering regulars would even applaud if a way was found to splice some obsolete units (eg 153s) into the train to give some extra seating…(yes, I know that’s probably technically impossible, but you know what I mean…!)

 

[Trainman40083]

Long term it needs 9 coach bi-modes.

Short term, it needs anything the industry can do for it. A seat on clapped out life-expired stock is better than standing for hours on a Voyager!

I agree about long term solution, but I doubt the DfT will allow that. But what other stock is there, that can be used short term. Double Voyagers require more staff (probably not depot space or maintenance staff) as the XC and AWC share the same facilities. I would not be surprised if the DfT solution was to sharply increase fares to dampen demand.

 

[Kite159]

An easy win would be for the government to announce they are going to order X coaches of Hitachi units for XC spinning it as keeping the factory open for business

But as XC doesn't serve London, they are not on the radar of the civil servants within the DfT

 

[JonathanH]

An easy win would be for the government to announce they are going to order X coaches of Hitachi units for XC spinning it as keeping the factory open for business

Who would it be an easy win for? Is it in any way likely to be self funding? In the absence of agreed options, it would need to go through a procurement process reflecting that it represents use of public funds.

 

[Tetragon213]

Long term it needs 9 coach bi-modes (either 80x series or a longer version of the 755s would be a good start!).

I can’t see a loco-hauled option being terribly desirable but 9 coach rakes of Mk5As with a DVT at one end and a Class 88 or Class 93 at the other end would do the job.

Whatever option was chosen, in an ideal world a bi-mode unit that could operate electric via 25kV overhead and 750v DC third rail could eliminate all diesel running over electrified lines by XC, which is an environmental scandal.

I've always held that, of all operators, XC are the ones who would benefit most from bi-modal 80x's due to our nation's patchwork electrification.

Short term, XC just needs anything the industry can do for it. A seat on clapped out life-expired stock is better than standing for hours on a Voyager!

I expect long suffering regulars would even applaud if a way was found to splice some obsolete units (eg 153s) into the train to give some extra seating…(yes, I know that’s probably technically impossible, but you know what I mean…!)

Hear hear! As I said, any train is better than no train! Regarding your 153 proposal, that's not as mad as it might sound. The 170s that XC runs are capable of working in multiple with 153s, iirc.

Regarding the Mk5A's, I seem to recall a bunch of Class 67s in storage; iirc, they are cleared for 125mph (correct me if I'm wrong?), so it might not be entirely out of the question to run Class 67s with a rake of coaches as a stopgap? Unless the couplers aren't compatible?

 

[Kite159]

Who would it be an easy win for? Is it in any way likely to be self funding? In the absence of agreed options, it would need to go through a procurement process reflecting that it represents use of public funds.

For the government to say they are doing something about the mass overcrowding on XC by ordering new stock, also spinning it as "less diesels under wires" with bi-modes.

 

[Trainbike46]

Long term it needs 9 coach bi-modes (either 80x series or a longer version of the 755s would be a good start!).

I can’t see a loco-hauled option being terribly desirable but 9 coach rakes of Mk5As with a DVT at one end and a Class 88 or Class 93 at the other end would do the job.

Whatever option was chosen, in an ideal world a bi-mode unit that could operate electric via 25kV overhead and 750v DC third rail could eliminate all diesel running over electrified lines by XC, which is an environmental scandal.

Short term, XC just needs anything the industry can do for it. A seat on clapped out life-expired stock is better than standing for hours on a Voyager!

I expect long suffering regulars would even applaud if a way was found to splice some obsolete units (eg 153s) into the train to give some extra seating…(yes, I know that’s probably technically impossible, but you know what I mean…!)

Absolutely agreed on the bimodes

Unfortunately there isn't much in the way of serviceable diesel units going spare anyway - the only ones I am aware of are the few unclaimed ex-avanti 221s, and soon (some of the) 222s. I don't think any of the 153s are remotely serviceable!

I think the ex-TPE Mk5As will likely end up at Chiltern, who also need the stock

 

[Peterthegreat]

An easy win would be for the government to announce they are going to order X coaches of Hitachi units for XC spinning it as keeping the factory open for business

But as XC doesn't serve London, they are not on the radar of the civil servants within the DfT

You're right about the DfT but 18 (If I've counted correctly) of the current Cabinet are MPs for constituencies served by Cross Country (or are very near).

 

[Tetragon213]

Absolutely agreed on the bimodes

Unfortunately there isn't much in the way of serviceable diesel units going spare anyway - the only ones I am aware of are the few unclaimed ex-avanti 221s, and soon (some of the) 222s. I don't think any of the 153s are remotely serviceable!

I think the ex-TPE Mk5As will likely end up at Chiltern, who also need the stock

Aren't there some Class 67s going spare?