Cross Country treating customers as sardines

[Kite159]

Oh really ? in that case, why not just amend timetables to read " may or may not stop at "X" "Y" "Z" stations depending on our whim ".....you see, the problem is, normals tend to board trains under the impression the service will stop at the station they wish to alight at. Most, if not all, aren't remotely concerned if the train is 765 or 982 class, but, are capable of noting whether it's three / four coaches rather than say nine / ten or more.

That said, you may have done me a favour as I have to travel to the NEC next March, and, if the timetable remains the same, had a choice of three trains / TOC's...Avanti is out, more expensive and unreliable, XC is now out, as I wish to get off at B'ham International, which only leaves West Mids, or whatever it's called today.

For Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International, there is hardly any time penalty for taking the LNR services compared to XC, TfW or Avanti as all 3 are non-stop. The only time penalty comes from catching the stopper. The benefit of catching the LNR (or an Avanti which starts at New Street) is having more time to grab a seat.

XC should simply stop serving Coventry, now West Midlands Rail runs an hourly shuttle between Leamington & Nuneaton, the section of line between Leamington & Coventry is no longer "XC Only".

 

[A S Leib]

XC should simply stop serving Coventry, now West Midlands Rail runs an hourly shuttle between Leamington & Nuneaton, the section of line between Leamington & Coventry is no longer "XC Only".

Coventry to Manchester is 107 passengers per day; Coventry to Milton Keynes is 104. Apart from the relative distance, I don't think leaving Coventry without any Manchester services whilst Milton Keynes gets three per hour (if two via Northampton) would go down brilliantly.

 

[Merle Haggard]

For Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International, there is hardly any time penalty for taking the LNR services compared to XC, TfW or Avanti as all 3 are non-stop. The only time penalty comes from catching the stopper. The benefit of catching the LNR (or an Avanti which starts at New Street) is having more time to grab a seat.

XC should simply stop serving Coventry, now West Midlands Rail runs an hourly shuttle between Leamington & Nuneaton, the section of line between Leamington & Coventry is no longer "XC Only".

What's probably long forgotten is that the motive for XC running via Coventry was to serve Birmingham International and which inevitably meant calling at Coventry as well. There was a plan (possibly sabotaged by the HS2 construction) to reopen Berkswell to Kenilworth to enable XC to run more directly, and reduce congestion.

Coventry to Manchester is 107 passengers per day; Coventry to Milton Keynes is 104. Apart from the relative distance, I don't think leaving Coventry without any Manchester services whilst Milton Keynes gets three per hour (if two via Northampton) would go down brilliantly.

There's around 15 trains per day each way. That means it would affect just over 3 people per train. The other 150 passengers (assuming full but unusually not standing, 4 car) might be pleased...

 

[A S Leib]

There's around 15 trains per day each way. That means it would affect just over 3 people per train. The other 150 passengers (assuming full but unusually not standing, 4 car) might be pleased...

Two or three trains per day then? I don't particularly like going down the less-than-hourly path for intercity journeys unless it's for long enough ones like King's Cross – Inverness that any end-to-end passengers can be expected to plan around an infrequent service.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Two or three trains per day then? I don't particularly like going down the less-than-hourly path for intercity journeys unless it's for long enough ones like King's Cross – Inverness that any end-to-end passengers can be expected to plan around an infrequent service.

After the VHF timetable was introduced, journey planners gave Northampton > Manchester as stopper to Coventry then forward by XC. However, a recent timetable change introduced a Rugby stop in the Avanti Manchester service. As well as reducing (slightly!) demand on XC I wonder whether a quicker Coventry - Manchester journey than via XC could be made via Rugby under the present timetable (bit like Northampton passengers being routed via Milton Keynes for some Northern destinations - a more direct reversal)

 

[pnjman]

After the VHF timetable was introduced, journey planners gave Northampton > Manchester as stopper to Coventry then forward by XC. However, a recent timetable change introduced a Rugby stop in the Avanti Manchester service. As well as reducing (slightly!) demand on XC I wonder whether a quicker Coventry - Manchester journey than via XC could be made via Rugby under the present timetable (bit like Northampton passengers being routed via Milton Keynes for some Northern destinations - a more direct reversal)

It is indeed faster going Manchester to Coventry via Rugby, unfortunately not a valid route and splitting doubles the price.

I made this journey a couple of weeks ago (not via Rugby), the crawl between Wolverhampton and Coventry is soul destroying. On the way back north it was 4 carriages and so predictably full and standing from when I got on until Stoke, and sardined from Birmingham international until Stafford.

 

[BrianW]

There are plenty of threads on this subject already if you care to conduct a search. Do we really need another one?

That's a bit unkind and discouraging of new posters- 11 postings against your more than 4000; perhaps you might have been more helpful by linking to one of the many threads, or summarising ...

Welcome BREMENMURRAY; I hope you have found some of the now over 150 replies on this thread to be informative. Well done in persevering.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

For my sins, I had the pleasure of a 4 Car CrossCountry Voyager from Derby to Birmingham New street today at 1631. For good measure, the 1610 CrossCountry to Birmingham New Street had been cancelled.

The resigned looks on the faces of passengers and staff alike told many a story.

 

[Krokodil]

I suspect that such a unit would be horribly overpowered, burn fuel for fun for very few seats and, based on comments l've seen about other classes, might well have braking issues.

You probably wouldn't even get the brakes off. Modern units don't tend to have a compressor in every vehicle, I believe that Voyagers have it in a centre car.

 

[Harpo]

Britain’s railways. Possibly the only paying service where demand is a constant unresolved difficulty rather than an opportunity.

XC is a great example of why trust in skilled railway managers needs to be restored and why management by DfT has run its course.

 

[duffield]

What's probably long forgotten is that the motive for XC running via Coventry was to serve Birmingham International and which inevitably meant calling at Coventry as well. There was a plan (possibly sabotaged by the HS2 construction) to reopen Berkswell to Kenilworth to enable XC to run more directly, and reduce congestion.



There's around 15 trains per day each way. That means it would affect just over 3 people per train. The other 150 passengers (assuming full but unusually not standing, 4 car) might be pleased...

Unless I'm missing something here, removing a tiny number of passengers - only 3 people per train on average - would make effectively zero difference to the comfort of the other 150.

 

[Krokodil]

Unless I'm missing something here, removing a tiny number of passengers - only 3 people per train on average - would make effectively zero difference to the comfort of the other 150.

The bit that you are missing is that as well as the three Coventry to Manchester passengers who are being inconvenienced, you also avoid picking up shed loads of Coventry to Birmingham passengers who could easily be using a different train.

 

[duffield]

The bit that you are missing is that as well as the three Coventry to Manchester passengers who are being inconvenienced, you also avoid picking up shed loads of Coventry to Birmingham passengers who could easily be using a different train.

Fair enough, I think I lost the thread a bit there and thought the "3 passengers" referred to the total number who would be removed!

 

[Trainman40083]

For my sins, I had the pleasure of a 4 Car CrossCountry Voyager from Derby to Birmingham New street today at 1631. For good measure, the 1610 CrossCountry to Birmingham New Street had been cancelled.

The resigned looks on the faces of passengers and staff alike told many a story.

I remember the look such passengers had, when a HST appeared.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I recall that crush-loading was still a problem before Covid.

Long, long before COVID.

Around 1998-2001 I regularly worked in Leeds, taking the Chiltern service to Banbury and then XC service to Leeds. My company paid for First Class, but I can assure you that I regularly stood from Leeds to Banbury as the 47 hauled trains were rammed.

There was no "golden era" for XC.

 

[duffield]

Long, long before COVID.

Around 1998-2001 I regularly worked in Leeds, taking the Chiltern service to Banbury and then XC service to Leeds. My company paid for First Class, but I can assure you that I regularly stood from Leeds to Banbury as the 47 hauled trains were rammed.

There was no "golden era" for XC.

There might not have been a golden era but just going back around 10 years I don't remember the mass cancellations being an issue (and of course it's cancellations which cause some of the most hellish overcrowding on subsequent services). Also before the HSTs were taken away without replacement overcrowding wasn't quite as bad on some of the northeast to southwest services.
It's hard to put a finger on it but it seems to me the service on the Nottingham to Cardiff route really started to fall apart around 5-10 years ago (this may be inaccurate, my time sense isn't great). Ten years ago I would have been very confident I could pretty much rely on a full service on this route without a second thought. My XC train to work was virtually never cancelled.

 

[12LDA28C]

Long, long before COVID.

Around 1998-2001 I regularly worked in Leeds, taking the Chiltern service to Banbury and then XC service to Leeds. My company paid for First Class, but I can assure you that I regularly stood from Leeds to Banbury as the 47 hauled trains were rammed.

There was no "golden era" for XC.

I don’t recall any Leeds to Banbury direct 47-hauled trains during that time period. They were booked for HSTs surely, unless you changed in Birmingham.

 

[Mogz]

Long, long before COVID.

Around 1998-2001 I regularly worked in Leeds, taking the Chiltern service to Banbury and then XC service to Leeds. My company paid for First Class, but I can assure you that I regularly stood from Leeds to Banbury as the 47 hauled trains were rammed.

There was no "golden era" for XC.

Maybe so, but they had 7+ coaches in those days as I recall.

That said, the trains I used to get to Oxford in the late 1990s/ early 2000s pre-Voyager were the Liverpool- Poole/Weymouth services, which were usually 47 + Mk 2s.

I don’t recall anyone standing on those services, ever.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Not a good read. I hope the chap who assaulted the Train Manager gets what he deserves.

Worst train journey ever left carriage looking like 'blood bath'

The train had to stop at Tiverton Parkway for police to intervene

www.devonlive.com

 

[Trainman40083]

Not a good read. I hope the chap who assaulted the Train Manager gets what he deserves.

Worst train journey ever left carriage looking like 'blood bath'

The train had to stop at Tiverton Parkway for police to intervene

www.devonlive.com

Just imagine these days, CCTV could get a picture. It might link to a ticket barrier. That might link to a ticket. That might link to an online purchase record. If it doesn't now, what with facial recognition and AI , it probably will soon.

 

[Mogz]

Another symptom of the trains just being too short for the demand they receive and the journeys they make.

Been saying it for years, along with thousands of others…

 

[Krokodil]

Just imagine these days, CCTV could get a picture. It might link to a ticket barrier. That might link to a ticket. That might link to an online purchase record. If it doesn't now, what with facial recognition and AI , it probably will soon.

The police can already use software to match CCTV stills with mugshots in the Police National Computer.

 

[Trainman40083]

The police can already use software to match CCTV stills with mugshots in the Police National Computer.

Yes, if they already in the Police national computer.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Just imagine these days, CCTV could get a picture. It might link to a ticket barrier. That might link to a ticket. That might link to an online purchase record. If it doesn't now, what with facial recognition and AI , it probably will soon.

That match-day incident was awful. I've been on some warm trains recently -- they've suddenly turned the thermostat right up! -- but I'd have been struggling with the heat long before the chaos erupted.

The worst match day experience I had was rowdy fans on an intercity train between Manchester and Stockport. We sat at Macclesfield while the police were called, which took ages, and someone said to the rest of us that they should have just let us continue to Stockport where everyone would have got off anyway.

(NB this was over 25 years ago and I'm not from the north -- I mean, I technically am, I was born in Whitehaven to a man from Bolton and a woman from Belfast, but we moved south when I was 6 -- so I may have got the details the wrong way round. But the chaos was the same.)

That train was relatively spacious though. Because we were fairly late getting back to London as we'd missed our slots through Birmingham, I got to know some of the other passengers. As a regular user of XC and having contributed to this thread a while back, I can't really imagine the same thing happening on Voyagers. I do find them a bit more comfortable than some trains, particularly the Elizabeth Line where I rattle about a bit too much on high speed journeys and therefore prefer to wait for the Didcot train between Slough and Reading, but then I take after my Irish grandad and fold up quite well. For someone not of my dimensions, it could get really uncomfortable. (Although it's amazing what you can fit in there. The most enterprising passengers were two wee chows who were very good girls on what must have been an epic voyage for them, but they were probably the most comfortable passengers on that trip!)

Still, they beat the horrible tiny commuter trains Midland Mainline put on during the summer after my first year at uni. I lived in Bedford and did an internship in London and that was cramped. And pretty dangerous if there was a crash like the one that happened at Ladbroke Grove a few weeks after I stopped travelling. I've been on some hairy journeys (even without chows!) but that really put me off travelling long distances on cramped trains.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I don’t recall any Leeds to Banbury direct 47-hauled trains during that time period. They were booked for HSTs surely, unless you changed in Birmingham.

It was about 25 years ago. Standing for hours is something I recall, the traction is something I don't. Be mindful that by 1999 the Mk2s rakes were end of life, often had a missing coach or a coach locked out of use, and the brake coach was only a half coach. The 47s often broke down too.

The two coach HSTs for a short while were quite memorable!

As was selling the rail warrants to neighbours for a 10% discount. Could easily turn £500 a month in refunds.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t recall any Leeds to Banbury direct 47-hauled trains during that time period. They were booked for HSTs surely, unless you changed in Birmingham.

I travelled a few times between Leeds and Reading in those days. Mostly changing at Birmingham, but pretty sure there were some mk2's made it to Leeds.

 

[12LDA28C]

I travelled a few times between Leeds and Reading in those days. Mostly changing at Birmingham, but pretty sure there were some mk2's made it to Leeds.

Anything direct from Leeds to Reading was booked an HST although LHCS was a very occasional substitute on 1O11 to Bournemouth.

 

[12LDA28C]

It was about 25 years ago. Standing for hours is something I recall, the traction is something I don't. Be mindful that by 1999 the Mk2s rakes were end of life, often had a missing coach or a coach locked out of use, and the brake coach was only a half coach. The 47s often broke down too.

The two coach HSTs for a short while were quite memorable!

As was selling the rail warrants to neighbours for a 10% discount. Could easily turn £500 a month in refunds.

Indeed, I spent many years travelling through Banbury on XC services and as you say by 1999 the LHCS trains were booked for a 7-coach Mk2 formation but were often 6 or even 5 due to stock shortages. It was always amusing when the ‘half brake’ was the wrong way round which generally meant normal passengers didn’t attempt to access the passenger accommodation through the guard’s compartment so cranks often had the coach to themselves even if the rest of the train was busy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There might not have been a golden era but just going back around 10 years I don't remember the mass cancellations being an issue (and of course it's cancellations which cause some of the most hellish overcrowding on subsequent services). Also before the HSTs were taken away without replacement overcrowding wasn't quite as bad on some of the northeast to southwest services.

The staffing-related cancellations on the Voyager-operated services are a more recent development, but the overcrowding is not. The HSTs were only brought in after many years of chronic overcrowding under Virgin.

I travelled a few times between Leeds and Reading in those days. Mostly changing at Birmingham, but pretty sure there were some mk2's made it to Leeds.

The 47s + MK2s were mostly on the south west services, either Newcastle to Bristol or Leeds to Bristol. I remember catching the 7am or so from Leeds to Birmingham to go to the Motor Show at the NEC; south of Sheffield it was rammed.

As others have said, by the end the 47s were extremely unreliable and the Mk2s were absolutely knackered. How much of that was Virgin refusing to pay the money to maintain them, I'll let others decide.

It's hard to put a finger on it but it seems to me the service on the Nottingham to Cardiff route really started to fall apart around 5-10 years ago (this may be inaccurate, my time sense isn't great). Ten years ago I would have been very confident I could pretty much rely on a full service on this route without a second thought.

That is definitely rose-tinted glasses time! The service under Central Trains was an absolute shambles.

 

[Trainman40083]

The staffing-related cancellations on the Voyager-operated services are a more recent development, but the overcrowding is not. The HSTs were only brought in after many years of chronic overcrowding under Virgin.


The 47s + MK2s were mostly on the south west services, either Newcastle to Bristol or Leeds to Bristol. I remember catching the 7am or so from Leeds to Birmingham to go to the Motor Show at the NEC; south of Sheffield it was rammed.

As others have said, by the end the 47s were extremely unreliable and the Mk2s were absolutely knackered. How much of that was Virgin refusing to pay the money to maintain them, I'll let others decide.


That is definitely rose-tinted glasses time! The service under Central Trains was an absolute shambles.

Re Nottingham Cardiff. Shame TfW can't run it with loco and coaches... That said, are they running all their 67 hauled services yet?