Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[The Planner]

DRS's primary reason for existing will more or less dissapear inside the next decade, with a large portion (of the fraction that remains) gone in the next five years.

They bought an fleet of mixed traffic locomotives far in excess of their own requirements (indeed some MPVs would probably suffice for their requirements!), and then subleased a big chunk of them to TPE et al as a quasi ROSCO.

None of this is related to their actual business, and now the taxpayer is lumbered with this stock which has little future purpose.

DRS have a nice Intermodal business as well.

 

[HSTEd]

The core Nuclear traffic will continue for a number of years yet, unless the MOD stops utilising Nuclear Power for its Sub fleet, Power stations stop using Nuclear fuel and decommissioning of those sites stops outright?

Nuclear plants that are under construction will handle the spent fuel on site for the forseable future, there will be no spent fuel shipments.
Beyond that, submarines now in service (or entering service) mostly have "whole life" cores, which means there will be no midlife refueling with the attendent generation of spent submarine fuel. Indeed I think all midlife refueling operations that will happen, have happened.

The amount of spent fuel being moved around will fall to essentially zero once the AGR fleet is gone (2028-2029).
Very little railfreight is generated by decommissioning, especially as the first several decades mostly consist of sitting around waiting.

And what is wrong with DRS subleasing locos out? DB has done it for years with the 67 fleet, GB has done it in the past. If it generates extra income and provides an extra services, what’s wrong about that?

Any income that DRS obtains from leasing those locomotives to TPE just moves money from one part of the state to the other.
TPE will require additional subsidies, which will just flow through the corporate structures and back to DRS.

 

[warwickshire]

Monday 02nd December 2024.
I witnessed at Barnt Green
5Q70 1045 Long Marston to Wolverton with 37611 taking unbranded set, TP10, to Wolverton for possible further use elsewhere.

However both unbranded sets TP01, TP10 are at Wolverton, is it possible these are the first earmarked sets for Chiltern,
AND Wolverton will do further works on them, to bring upto ready for Chiltern standards,

Could it be possible due to x2 Mk5 sets there, at Wolverton , They might make a 6 car Mk5 set, and see if successful via test runs Wcml somewhere or in due course??
If Chiltern wants to run them as 6. ??

 

[Nym]

They will very likely need brake tests if there going to be made off as 6 car units so agreed there.
They may regret using Wolverton given their track record with heavy work. (442s anyone?)

 

[87015]

Standard TPE stock moves for exam - nothings off lease yet

 

[Peter Sarf]

I notice the set TP10 was not moved by a 68. Is that unusual ?.

 

[JonathanH]

I notice the set TP10 was not moved by a 68. Is that unusual ?.

Not really. The coaches can presumably be hauled by any locomotive if they are not in passenger service.

 

[D365]

Not really. The coaches can presumably be hauled by any locomotive if they are not in passenger service.

Indeed. I have in the past seen a Europhoenix Class 37 performing the honours.

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed. I have in the past seen a Europhoenix Class 37 performing the honours.

And on one occasion in May 2019, by a pair of Freightliner class 86s, from Longsight to Crewe.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Indeed. I have in the past seen a Europhoenix Class 37 performing the honours.

Can a 37 haul them in passenger service? Guess it would need a modification to operate in push mode.

A 37 hauled rake of Mk5s would have been so much better than the 2 car 158 that took me from Edinburgh to Inverness last Thursday.

"This train has four coaches" - no it didn't!

 

[43096]

Can a 37 haul them in passenger service?

No

 

[LondonerTravel]

On the loco hauled train at the moment and one of the train staff said new stock is coming soon, when they complained about the plug sockets not working.

 

[warwickshire]

On the loco hauled train at the moment and one of the train staff said new stock is coming soon, when they complained about the plug sockets not working.

Mk5 are apparently happening on Chiltern next year nearly confirmed just awaiting approval during early Spring, final Dft sign off,

Also Chiltern looking at making into 7 Cars too, also heard from a member of staff when travelling the mk3 this week. Myself .

However if correct, wonder how many days at first will be spent onboard awaiting hours on end for assistance to arrive,?.
Due to failure of, Mk5 , but bring it on, plenty of chances like. when happened on, TPE to enjoy rare freight locomotive haulage, on the Chilterns, before hopefully and when the class 68s, become very reliable. On there.

 

[Eurostarosaur]

Mk5 are apparently happening on Chiltern next year nearly confirmed just awaiting approval during early Spring, final Dft sign off,

Also Chiltern looking at making into 7 Cars too, also heard from a member of staff when travelling the mk3 this week. Myself .

However if correct, wonder how many days at first will be spent onboard awaiting hours on end for assistance to arrive,?.
Due to failure of, Mk5 , but bring it on, plenty of chances like. when happened on, TPE to enjoy rare freight locomotive haulage, on the Chilterns, before hopefully and when the class 68s, become very reliable. On there.

That would be fantastic. Any idea if there would be any benefit in terms of freeing up other rolling stock to provide more frequent services elsewhere? I’m a frequent user of their suburban and Thames Valley services, and have to say the capacity provided is woefully inadequate. Once or twice hourly trains of 2 cars and standing room only on mid week afternoons and Sundays is ridiculous.

 

[AF91]

That would be fantastic. Any idea if there would be any benefit in terms of freeing up other rolling stock to provide more frequent services elsewhere? I’m a frequent user of their suburban and Thames Valley services, and have to say the capacity provided is woefully inadequate. Once or twice hourly trains of 2 cars and standing room only on mid week afternoons and Sundays is ridiculous.

They'd be taking more sets than they'd be losing with the mk3s going so there should be a benefit with 168s being freed up from Birmingham duties.

 

[warwickshire]

They'd be taking more sets than they'd be losing with the mk3s going so there should be a benefit with 168s being freed up from Birmingham duties.

Also 165 can double up on Met line,
168 can double up on Oxfords.

However still subject to final approval from Dft.

Also 5 car Mk5 isn't enough capacity for when on Peak or Weekend services, hence Chiltern looking to make most likely 6 or possibly 7 coaches.

So services will need to go express from Banbury, like before Covid 19.
Even a 6 car mk5 has less capacity than a 6 car Mk3, but is better than a 5 Car mk5.
Obvious will be to run hourly services from Banbury to London Marylebone, to connect with the Birmingham to London services in which mk5 will do.

However as Tpex only ran as 5 car fixed formation, 6 car still needs testing,
As each time you add or swap vehicles,
Or make to 6 car, Mk5 sets will need a complete software reset on them,
Hence only been used as 5 car, in the past on Tpex and being programmed to do so.

 

[Eurostarosaur]

Ok, thanks for the replies, hopefully there’ll be some good news soon. I think I heard a while back that chiltern has the highest load factor, so any extra capacity will be quickly absorbed, especially with some big developments in Buckinghamshire and Wembley.

 

[craigybagel]

As I pointed out before, if they go for an expansion in loco hauled services (and not just like for like replacement of MKIIIs) to release units, Chiltern are probably going to need to find some extra guards from somewhere.....

 

[Class93]

Ok, thanks for the replies, hopefully there’ll be some good news soon. I think I heard a while back that chiltern has the highest load factor, so any extra capacity will be quickly absorbed, especially with some big developments in Buckinghamshire and Wembley.

Not going to be having loco hauled from Wembley Central!

 

[Eurostarosaur]

Not going to be having loco hauled from Wembley Central!

We can only dream

My question was mainly regarding an increase in loco-hauled services elsewhere allowing other rolling stock to be freed up for more suburban type services which are currently low frequency and crowded even at off-peak times.

 

[tfw756rider]

Mk5 are apparently happening on Chiltern next year nearly confirmed just awaiting approval during early Spring, final Dft sign off,

I heard that these Mk5A sets were unreliable on TransPennine Express (TPE). If that was indeed the case, surely Chiltern will be having them made more reliable if they're taking them?

Also, I take it they'll have to use them with different 68s (specifically, the ones TPE used them with) that have been "CAF-ified" to work with the Mk5A sets?

 

[Trainbike46]

I heard that these Mk5A sets were unreliable on TransPennine Express (TPE). If that was indeed the case, surely Chiltern will be having them made more reliable if they're taking them?

Also, I take it they'll have to use them with different 68s (specifically, the ones TPE used them with) that have been "CAF-ified" to work with the Mk5A sets?

At least one of the problems TPE was having was regarding training, and getting the rigth staff trained on them, which I'd hope should not be an issue on Chiltern

 

[craigybagel]

At least one of the problems TPE was having was regarding training, and getting the rigth staff trained on them, which I'd hope should not be an issue on Chiltern

Similar to my point about needing guards - if they want to run MKVs in enough numbers to cascade DMUa, they'll probably need to train up more than just the existing 68/MKIII qualified drivers. I'm sure the conversion course from MKIII to MKV for the existing drivers at Marylebone and Stourbridge shouldn't be too hard to organise, but if you need to add in drivers who don't currently sign 68s, including the Moor Street drivers who lost their competence a year or so ago, it will start to get time consuming and expensive.

In short, I'll be pleasantly surprised if the DfT approve Chiltern taking on more sets than they need to just replace the MKIIIs.....

 

[Peter Sarf]

Similar to my point about needing guards - if they want to run MKVs in enough numbers to cascade DMUa, they'll probably need to train up more than just the existing 68/MKIII qualified drivers. I'm sure the conversion course from MKIII to MKV for the existing drivers at Marylebone and Stourbridge shouldn't be too hard to organise, but if you need to add in drivers who don't currently sign 68s, including the Moor Street drivers who lost their competence a year or so ago, it will start to get time consuming and expensive.

In short, I'll be pleasantly surprised if the DfT approve Chiltern taking on more sets than they need to just replace the MKIIIs.....

If Chiltern don't go for 68s and Mk5s then it means more training for an alternative ?.

 

[craigybagel]

If Chiltern don't go for 68s and Mk5s then it means more training for an alternative ?.

True - there's certainly less training involved than with the alternatives, but only if they're maintaining the existing MKIII service levels. If they want to do more than just replace them, it's going to be more training for other traincrew from scratch regardless of which rolling stock they use. And with the MKVs not (currently) being DOO capable, that means more guards too.

 

[Evolution]

I’m surprised GWR didn’t have a look at these, since they already operate some loco hauled stock.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I’m surprised GWR didn’t have a look at these, since they already operate some loco hauled stock.

GWR might have looked at the 68+Mk5s BUT they would have had less attraction for them (cmpared to Chiltern) as they do not currently operate any 68s. Also I wonder what proportion of GWRs drivers are passed on 57s (so any locos) anyway ?.

It is a microfleet as far as a big TOC are concerned. Of course the 14 x 5 car class 180s are also a microfleet but may have a niche because they share spares with the 175s (tenuous thought) and they are also multiple units.

EDITed - spelling/grammar.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Also I wonder what proportion of GWRs drivers are passed on 57s (so any locos) anyway ?.

HSS drivers at Paddington,Exeter,Plymouth and Penzance. Some Exeter GWR drivers now learning them too.

 

[Evolution]

GWR might have looked at the 68+Mk5s BUT they would have had less attraction for them (cmpared to Chiltern) as they do not currently operate any 68s. Also I wonder what proportion of GWRs drivers are passed on 57s (so any locos) anyway ?.

As you say Chiltern are a better fit due to currently operating 68s. But I think these sets would have been great on some of the GWR routes, that’s by the by I suppose.

 

[Harpo]

What environmental limitations are there on Chilterns operating more 68s into Marylebone?