Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes. But let's be blunt. Such things are ALWAYS the case when you're on the boundary between operators.

Absolutely agree - in all walks of life, wherever there is a threshold or a boundary, you'll get some sort of example where someone is disadvantaged in some way.

 

[johncrossley]

There's a good reason why London hasn't gone anywhere near close with this. Permit buses there are completely outside the travel card/TfL system, yet alone hoppers.

This wasn't the case in earlier times, before TfL took over. Buses from outside Greater London would accept bus passes and Travelcards within the zonal area just like London buses.

 

[Simon75]

Yes. But let's be blunt. Such things are ALWAYS the case when you're on the boundary between operators.

Bee Network when all is said and done is an operator. If Stagecoach ran all the buses in the area commercially and introduced a hopper, what would happen if you tried to get on a competitor's service with a hopper ticket? You'd be told to go away.

Realistically what is the alternative? It's very easy to say "every bus in Greater Manchester must allow hoppers". But what happens when the bus crosses the boundary? What happens when the bus comes from outside into Greater Manchester? How do you integrate all the operators technically so they can even recognise the hopper? How do you fairly allocate revenue?

Whole thing is a nightmare of complexity. There's a good reason why London hasn't gone anywhere near close with this. Permit buses there are completely outside the travel card/TfL system, yet alone hoppers.

Like London there's also winners in this for Bee Network buses running outside the county

So for example The 391/392 Stockport to Macclesfield, is not a Bee Network bus (Bell Vue on behalf of Cheshire East).
So are Bee Network tickets not valid, or only valid between Stockport and Hazel Grove

 

[johncrossley]

So for example The 391/392 Stockport to Macclesfield, is not a Bee Network bus (Bell Vue on behalf of Cheshire East).
So are Bee Network tickets not valid, or only valid between Stockport and Hazel Grove

Until 4 January, Bee Bus tickets aren't valid on this service, but AnyBus tickets are valid within GM. From 5 January, Bee Bus tickets are valid within GM with the exception of the Hopper fare.

 

[Andyh82]

BusTimes suggests that First Manchester will be running the Stagecoach Night Buses on the night of Saturday 4th January into Sunday 5th January

This being services 43, 86, 103, 142, 192, 201, 203, 216 & 219

Presumably so Stagecoach’s commercial operations have a clean end, and the Bee Network Tranche 3 has a clean start

 

[Deerfold]

Yes. But let's be blunt. Such things are ALWAYS the case when you're on the boundary between operators.

Bee Network when all is said and done is an operator. If Stagecoach ran all the buses in the area commercially and introduced a hopper, what would happen if you tried to get on a competitor's service with a hopper ticket? You'd be told to go away.

Realistically what is the alternative? It's very easy to say "every bus in Greater Manchester must allow hoppers". But what happens when the bus crosses the boundary? What happens when the bus comes from outside into Greater Manchester? How do you integrate all the operators technically so they can even recognise the hopper? How do you fairly allocate revenue?

Whole thing is a nightmare of complexity. There's a good reason why London hasn't gone anywhere near close with this. Permit buses there are completely outside the travel card/TfL system, yet alone hoppers.

Like London there's also winners in this for Bee Network buses running outside the county

Some routes used to accept TfL tickets on non-TfL routes.

TfL did compensate them for this, but the redemption rate fell as the basic London bus fare has fallen in real terms a lot over the years until very recently and operators dropped the contract for that allowed this to happen.

 

[mangad]

BusTimes suggests that First Manchester will be running the Stagecoach Night Buses on the night of Saturday 4th January into Sunday 5th January

This being services 43, 86, 103, 142, 192, 201, 203, 216 & 219

Presumably so Stagecoach’s commercial operations have a clean end, and the Bee Network Tranche 3 has a clean start

And probably helps with the various fleet and depot changes that will be going on. Interesting that the 192 will be affected though - isn't that run from Stockport? Surely they won't need to do any changes there on switchover night?

 

[M60lad]

Has First Manchester got enough double deckers in their fleet to cover these night buses unless the plan is to use a mixture of double and single deck vehicles for one night only?

 

[Tim33160]

In an unusual move, TfGM have published an excel spreadsheet of bus times on Bee Network routes (only) for the Christmas and New Year period!

Of note some Bee Network buses are shown as running

• to 9pm on Christmas Eve
• to midnight on Boxing Day
• to normal Saturday finishing on NYE
• to midnight on NYD

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...e_Network_Christmas_service_details_2024.xlsx
linked as Christmas Timetables below

---------------------------------------------------------------

You can find out more details for Bee Network bus services operating over the festive period by visiting our Christmas Timetables.​

 

[Park47515]

In an unusual move, TfGM have published an excel spreadsheet of bus times on Bee Network routes (only) for the Christmas and New Year period!

Of note some Bee Network buses are shown as running

• to 9pm on Christmas Eve
• to midnight on Boxing Day
• to normal Saturday finishing on NYE
• to midnight on NYD

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...e_Network_Christmas_service_details_2024.xlsx
linked as Christmas Timetables below

---------------------------------------------------------------

You can find out more details for Bee Network bus services operating over the festive period by visiting our Christmas Timetables.​

That actually looks like a significant increase of service from last year. Certainly on Boxing Day and NYE

 

[py_megapixel]

The Sharston EVs seem to have acquired "waiting to be made yellow" stickers, which would appear to suggest they are in fact staying in Manchester.

That does beg the question of where exactly the Volvo BZLs (and new electric E400s, if there are any) are going, given AFAIK the other depots don't have electric charging infrastructure yet?

Presumably all will become clear in a couple of weeks.

 

[mangad]

BusTimes suggests that First Manchester will be running the Stagecoach Night Buses on the night of Saturday 4th January into Sunday 5th January

This being services 43, 86, 103, 142, 192, 201, 203, 216 & 219

Presumably so Stagecoach’s commercial operations have a clean end, and the Bee Network Tranche 3 has a clean start

Just an idle thought - anyone know what time tranche 3 of the Bee Network officially comes into being? It's publicly stated that it's 5th January, but is that midnight, 3am, 4am, 5am, something else? I assume it would be the same/similar to tranche 1 and 2.

I noted on bustimes.org that it was listing "First Greater Manchester" as being the operator of the night buses that night, not "Bee Network - First Manchester" and it made me wonder whether they were running commercially or franchised. Whether the buses would be going to be out on the road with "On hire to Stagecoach" on the side, or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the only tranche that's had this challenge as only Stagecoach had any night buses that were becoming franchised.

 

[Leyland Bus]

The Sharston EVs seem to have acquired "waiting to be made yellow" stickers, which would appear to suggest they are in fact staying in Manchester.

That does beg the question of where exactly the Volvo BZLs (and new electric E400s, if there are any) are going, given AFAIK the other depots don't have electric charging infrastructure yet?

Presumably all will become clear in a couple of weeks.

Don't take those stickers as gospel to anything. We are running several buses at Bolton with those on that aren't staying...

Just an idle thought - anyone know what time tranche 3 of the Bee Network officially comes into being? It's publicly stated that it's 5th January, but is that midnight, 3am, 4am, 5am, something else? I assume it would be the same/similar to tranche 1 and 2.

I noted on bustimes.org that it was listing "First Greater Manchester" as being the operator of the night buses that night, not "Bee Network - First Manchester" and it made me wonder whether they were running commercially or franchised. Whether the buses would be going to be out on the road with "On hire to Stagecoach" on the side, or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the only tranche that's had this challenge as only Stagecoach had any night buses that were becoming franchised.

They'd be commercial surely as the franchise doesn't begin until the 5th? There'll be so much for Stagecoach do leading up to the 5th (vacating 2 large garages is no mean feat) it makes sense to get someone else to cover the last bit of work and allow Stagecoach and Metroline to concentrate on getting moved and sorted.

 

[mangad]

They'd be commercial surely as the franchise doesn't begin until the 5th? There'll be so much for Stagecoach do leading up to the 5th (vacating 2 large garages is no mean feat) it makes sense to get someone else to cover the last bit of work and allow Stagecoach and Metroline to concentrate on getting moved and sorted.

It starts on the 5th, but my question is what time on the 5th does tranche 3 officially start? There's presumably an official cutover point. Timetables usually link night buses as running on the previous day's timetable. But a nightbus listed as running on a Saturday night is actually running on a Sunday morning. First's 192 journeys are down as running on the 4th January but they'll be on the early hours of the 5th.

Pragmatically it may be as simple as "switchover is the first 'day bus' on Sunday" for every route. If so the last commercial 192 would be getting into Hazel Grove at 0408, and the very first Bee Network 192 would leaving Manchester Piccadilly at 0602.

Of course the 43 is a 24 hour service. So how do you choose the cutover point for that! (I'm guessing we can work out what they chose from the timetable!)

 

[Leyland Bus]

It starts on the 5th, but my question is what time on the 5th does tranche 3 officially start? There's presumably an official cutover point. Timetables usually link night buses as running on the previous day's timetable. But a nightbus listed as running on a Saturday night is actually running on a Sunday morning. First's 192 journeys are down as running on the 4th January but they'll be on the early hours of the 5th.

Pragmatically it may be as simple as "switchover is the first 'day bus' on Sunday" for every route. If so the last commercial 192 would be getting into Hazel Grove at 0408, and the very first Bee Network 192 would leaving Manchester Piccadilly at 0602.

Of course the 43 is a 24 hour service. So how do you choose the cutover point for that! (I'm guessing we can work out what they chose from the timetable!)

I imagine your theory will be about right re change over time. The first bus of the "day" will be likely where it starts on the Monday morning. The round clock route will likely be a similar time too...

 

[py_megapixel]

Don't take those stickers as gospel to anything. We are running several buses at Bolton with those on that aren't staying...

Fair enough then!

 

[Leedsbusman]

Has First Manchester got enough double deckers in their fleet to cover these night buses unless the plan is to use a mixture of double and single deck vehicles for one night only?

It may not be First Manchester who are operating. This could something First Travel Solutions are managing with vehicles and drivers procured from their contractors.

 

[Andyh82]

Has First Manchester got enough double deckers in their fleet to cover these night buses unless the plan is to use a mixture of double and single deck vehicles for one night only?

I’m guessing night buses a few days after new years and with the unis still off won’t exactly be busy

 

[158756]

Don't take those stickers as gospel to anything. We are running several buses at Bolton with those on that aren't staying...


They'd be commercial surely as the franchise doesn't begin until the 5th? There'll be so much for Stagecoach do leading up to the 5th (vacating 2 large garages is no mean feat) it makes sense to get someone else to cover the last bit of work and allow Stagecoach and Metroline to concentrate on getting moved and sorted.

I'd guess it's a contract between First and TfGM. Maybe not a franchise as such, if that's the difference between the two First registrations (like how bustimes.org currently has Diamond tendered routes in the tranche 3 area listed separately from their franchised services)

I doubt there is any money in night buses in January and they wouldn't run a service commercially for one night anyway, and there's no reason for Stagecoach to pay for it given they won't be running any of the services commercially going forward.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I'd guess it's a contract between First and TfGM. Maybe not a franchise as such, if that's the difference between the two First registrations (like how bustimes.org currently has Diamond tendered routes in the tranche 3 area listed separately from their franchised services)

I doubt there is any money in night buses in January and they wouldn't run a service commercially for one night anyway, and there's no reason for Stagecoach to pay for it given they won't be running any of the services commercially going forward.

I think this makes sense, speaking from an 86 night bus user the service has got more popular over the past year due to the increase of awareness of night buses in general but there is now way it would make any money commercially just for one night given that it must cost a lot more to put these buses on than normal regular services.

If I am out that night I think I will have to budget for a taxi home in case it doesn't turn up!

 

[323235]

Until 4 January, Bee Bus tickets aren't valid on this service, but AnyBus tickets are valid within GM. From 5 January, Bee Bus tickets are valid within GM with the exception of the Hopper fare.

There’s a notice at Stockport interchange and an email going round from the Bee app basically saying that from 5th Jan it’s bee bus for yellow buses and Anybus tickets for non-yellow buses but the 1 day Anybus tickets will only be available from bus drivers.

It looks as though Bee Bus tickets are also valid on non-yellow buses within Greater Manchester as well

 

[mangad]

bustimes.org and TfGM's new school timetables both are showing Metroline taking over a number of Bee Network schools services. Definitely some routes that were run out of Stagecoach's Stockport depot, as well as some former Stotts routes.

Thought all the school specific routes were supposed to go to Schools franchises?

 

[geoffk]

Is Diamond operating all its Bee Network routes from Bolton or Eccles? There must be a lot of dead mileage involved as they have several routes in the Stockport and Altrincham areas.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is Diamond operating all its Bee Network routes from Bolton or Eccles? There must be a lot of dead mileage involved as they have several routes in the Stockport and Altrincham areas.

As far as I am aware, Diamond do not have a Bolton Depot (as the previously Diamond depot is now part of the Large Wigan franchise with Go North West), and so things are running from Eccles.

 

[mangad]

As far as I am aware, Diamond do not have a Bolton Depot (as the previously Diamond depot is now part of the Large Wigan franchise with Go North West), and so things are running from Eccles.

that's what I thought until someone here corrected me. They do have a Bolton depot - the old Arriva one.

 

[Andyh82]

bustimes.org and TfGM's new school timetables both are showing Metroline taking over a number of Bee Network schools services. Definitely some routes that were run out of Stagecoach's Stockport depot, as well as some former Stotts routes.

Thought all the school specific routes were supposed to go to Schools franchises?

Some school routes are part of the large franchises

 

[mangad]

Some school routes are part of the large franchises

Okay. Strange that they've reallocated some of them from different large depots. Doesn't immediate seem obvious why they'd choose to move services from Stockport depot to Metroline given they're both large franchises. But sure they have their reasons.

As an aside, guess tomorrow will be the end of an era - last bus services from Stotts. Also Nexus Move for that matter.

 

[Leyland Bus]

that's what I thought until someone here corrected me. They do have a Bolton depot - the old Arriva one.

Correct, they most definitely have the former Arriva/RIBBLE garage on Goodwin St in Bolton, to the degree that when they order things, they occasionally have a habit of being delivered to Weston St as some folk forget they've moved to another part of Bolton

 

[toms]

As far as I am aware, Diamond do not have a Bolton Depot (as the previously Diamond depot is now part of the Large Wigan franchise with Go North West), and so things are running from Eccles.

They have two, a small one in Eccles and a bigger one in Bolton (not to be confused with their old depot on Weston Street, Bolton that now belongs to Go North West) Diamond’s Bolton Depot is next to St Peter’s Way

 

[Statto]

They have two, a small one in Eccles and a bigger one in Bolton (not to be confused with their old depot on Weston Street, Bolton that now belongs to Go North West) Diamond’s Bolton Depot is next to St Peter’s Way

Isn't the Diamond depot in Bolton is the old Arriva depot?