How are you all coping with the £3 cap?

[jon0844]

Doesn't bother me as I've now taken to the railway to get to work but are there any tales of irate passengers who put a £2 coin in the tray and claimed to know nothing about the cap going to £3.

Wow, if you read the Telegraph or Express you'd think the whole world knew about this tax hike and were demanding the PM resigns and calls a new general election....

 

[johncrossley]

Such a concession in the UK will come at a cost (because some existing passengers currently buying two tickets will instead only have to pay for one). Who is going to pay for this revenue loss, and probably more practically, how would it be calculated?

How did they calculate it in London and GM (to be introduced on Sunday)? You could argue the Hopper Fare is already a fare increase for some passengers. The Hopper fare in London has gone up from £1.50 to £1.75 since its inception in 2016. If the Hopper Fare hadn't been introduced, perhaps the single fare might only be £1.70 now, all other things being equal?

Brighton & Hove buses offers a 60 minute single for £3.40 on a commercial basis, so 13% higher than the single fare cap.

 

[Non Multi]

I am somewhat surprised that operators haven't taken the opportunity to really promote their weekly/monthly/annual season tickets or their network carnets in the run up to January. Plenty of commuters won't have bought one in a long while and newer commuters won't be aware of their existence.

 

[Sheldonian]

Nice while it lasted.
Fair play to the last government for introducing. Served its purpose i imagine and was only ever going to be temporary, although seems that the new admin couldnt wait to bin it off.
Maybe £2.50 might have been a more gental way of acclimatising people but hey ho.
Would think it will reduce bus usage going forward. Certainly will with me. Just hope that our operators dont catch too much of a cold.

 

[Starmill]

My main concern about the new fare cap grant was not the affordability to the consumer but rather the loss of grant funds not being offset by the increase in single sales. To this end we'll have to wait and see how it goes, all I can say is that I hope it is extended to the end of the Parliament at £3 with no further cuts to the grant, but Reeves and Starmer seem to have it in for public transport users, as they announced big price hikes as if they were a good thing in their budget, while simultaneously cutting fuel duty, so we probably can't expect that.

Nice while it lasted.
Wont be spending any more.
Will just be travelling by bus a lot less.
I am lucky i only need a bus for leisure.
Feel for those who rely on bus for work

I do find it hilarious that a three mile journey costing £3 single or £6 return is considered a "special offer" for which a publicly-funded grant is needed on top.

Equally it's ridiculous for public money to subsidise Leeds to Whitby journeys so that they only cost £3, while starving other parts of the country.

I am somewhat surprised that operators haven't taken the opportunity to really promote their weekly/monthly/annual season tickets or their network carnets in the run up to January. Plenty of commuters won't have bought one in a long while and newer commuters won't be aware of their existence.

Presumably too many switching to seasons could lower their grant allocation.

 

[steamybrian]

Here in West Kent bus fares are expensive so a rise from £2 to £3 makes little difference as it is still a bargain. In the past prior to the subsidised maximum fare my friend was charged over £4 to travel single from Tonbridge to Hildenborough a distance of only 3 miles.
A ride on route 7 from Tonbridge to Maidstone or a no. 29 Tunbridge Wells to Brighton is still a bargain at £3 and far cheaper the car + parking.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I think that the response to the cap being raised depends heavily on what sort of territory it was like pre-£2 cap.

Here in York it is now a staggering £3 for a 1.5 mile journey into town with FirstBus scheduled to take just 10 mins in the middle of the day, or 8 min in late evenings.
First have said there are "cheaper fares for shorter journeys" available. I find it hard to believe 1.5miles shouldn't be classed as a short journey, and £6 return is a joke for this distance.
Having spoke to some (not so) old friends at First and seen the data behind the fare stages, the "cheaper" distance fares are literally 1 or 2 stop hops, so much that anyone using the bus is pretty much guaranteed to end up paying a full £3 single.
It should not cost £6 to go on a ten minute journey to town and back...

 

[TravelDream]

I think that the response to the cap being raised depends heavily on what sort of territory it was like pre-£2 cap.

This is definitely the case.
Whilst some operators have fares below £3, for most of England, £3 is now the defacto flat-rate fare for a single journey.
For those requiring a connection (e.g. 10 mins on bus A and 10 mins on bus B), £6 is now the defacto flat-rate fare unless a day ticket is purchased (which many people don't realise).

For some journeys, £2/£3 has been a massive boon. Less so for others.

It has encouraged me to use the bus, but only on routes which it made/ makes sense.

 

[Starmill]

I think that the response to the cap being raised depends heavily on what sort of territory it was like pre-£2 cap.

Here in York it is now a staggering £3 for a 1.5 mile journey into town with FirstBus scheduled to take just 10 mins in the middle of the day, or 8 min in late evenings.
First have said there are "cheaper fares for shorter journeys" available. I find it hard to believe 1.5miles shouldn't be classed as a short journey, and £6 return is a joke for this distance.
Having spoke to some (not so) old friends at First and seen the data behind the fare stages, the "cheaper" distance fares are literally 1 or 2 stop hops, so much that anyone using the bus is pretty much guaranteed to end up paying a full £3 single.
It should not cost £6 to go on a ten minute journey to town and back...

Exactly. The £2 cap worked really well because it fit just about for this sort of trip, and then for anything longer, such as the above Tunbridge Wells to Brighton, or the really long ones commonly done, like York to Scarborough or Hull to York, it was an absolute steal. The £3 fares are generally a rip off for this sort of journey because surprise surprise most operators are charging £3 for 1.5 miles, just like everyone knew they would. There are only a few isolated examples of 3/4 mile journeys costing less, such as Stony Stratford to Centre Milton Keynes.

Far better than flat singles would be a Cornwall style scheme of £3 day tickets / £10 weekly tickets for towns, but of course that also has gone up significantly since then.

 

[RT4038]

How did they calculate it in London and GM (to be introduced on Sunday)? You could argue the Hopper Fare is already a fare increase for some passengers. The Hopper fare in London has gone up from £1.50 to £1.75 since its inception in 2016. If the Hopper Fare hadn't been introduced, perhaps the single fare might only be £1.70 now, all other things being equal?

Brighton & Hove buses offers a 60 minute single for £3.40 on a commercial basis, so 13% higher than the single fare cap.

You've quite neatly summed up the issue - In London and Manchester one single public authority is taking the risk on the fares, possibly at quite some cost to taxpayers. They only needed to guess (as you have done) to the likely effect on revenues, frankly with little risk to the individuals making that guess. In the rest of the country it is commercial bus operators by and large taking the risk, with no taxpayer safety net to fall upon; so they won't do it. The fare cap, funded by taxpayers, was a fairly simple calculation based on existing knowledge of tickets sold - a hopper fare is unquantifiable and therefore unlikely to be agreed by the commercial operators - I suspect it will have to wait until if and when the taxpayer takes on the risk of bus fare levels elsewhere.

 

[Acfb]

I live in Edinburgh though so only pay £2 flat fares in Edinburgh itself for single journeys anyway. It's also good that fares for Ratho, Kirkliston and South Queensferry were brought back into line with the rest of Edinburgh this year as well. I did previously buy a £66 four week bus pass but have started walking to work one way four days a week as it's less than three miles so generally don't spend more than £12.80 or so a week on bus fares using contactless.

I made a few journeys last year on the 199 between Newtown by New Mills/Hazel Grove/Stockport and Whaley Bridge and will also benefit from the fare from Whaley Bridge to Manchester Airport being only £3 each way in the next few weeks (an open return used to be more than £7 but I assume High Peak Buses have now axed returns.....?).

 

[johncrossley]

In the rest of the country it is commercial bus operators by and large taking the risk, with no taxpayer safety net to fall upon; so they won't do it.

But Brighton have done it, at a modest premium to the traditional single.

 

[Simon75]

I wish people would remember that it is a cap and not a flat fare. Those whose fares have gone up to £3 should be considering how much their fare would cost if the cap didn't exist at all. Are you still better off with the cap?

Its a bit like with gas/electric misunderstanding the cap and actually cost

 

[Starmill]

Its a bit like with gas/electric misunderstanding the cap and actually cost

Is it? Nearly all singles are now £3 or more because for the most part you can only make a very short journey for less. I identified an unusually long one of 4 miles up thread.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Nearly all singles are now £3 or more

Err. Are they?
First Bristol disagrees. As do plenty of operators nationwide.

for most of England, £3 is now the defacto flat-rate fare for a single journey

Most? Or some?

those requiring a connection (e.g. 10 mins on bus A and 10 mins on bus B), £6 is now the defacto flat-rate fare unless a day ticket is purchased (which many people don't realise).

Tap on tap off and other modern ticketing solutions mean you don't have to even know day tickets are available though.

 

[Simon75]

In my area, the £3 fare cap is still a saving of £3 per journey compared to some of the £6 single fares that were charged before the cap (which would almost certainly have increased beyond £6 by now if the cap wasn't in place).

There are now three tiers of adult single fares being charged - £1.90, £2.40 and £3.00 - everything hasn't jumped to £3.00 like all the doomsayers were suggesting.

People are acting like the £2 cap was some sort of long standing, nationwide, blanket flat fare - not a temporary measure, a cap rather than a flat fare and entirely voluntary for operators to participate in.

Correct, judging by facebook posts in my area (which sounds like its the same as yours with the pricing) there so much confusion, plus the usual London has lower fares etc. Trying to explain to people is a nightmare

 

[Grumpy Git]

Whilst some operators have fares below £3, for most of England, £3 is now the defacto flat-rate fare for a single journey.

The Lancaster Park and Ride bus fare (just off the M6), is £1.70 return with free parking all day. An absolute bargain.

 

[GusB]

Brighton & Hove buses offers a 60 minute single for £3.40 on a commercial basis, so 13% higher than the single fare cap.

The discussion is about fares to which the cap applies; is this point really relevant to the discussion?

Here in West Kent bus fares are expensive so a rise from £2 to £3 makes little difference as it is still a bargain. In the past prior to the subsidised maximum fare my friend was charged over £4 to travel single from Tonbridge to Hildenborough a distance of only 3 miles.
A ride on route 7 from Tonbridge to Maidstone or a no. 29 Tunbridge Wells to Brighton is still a bargain at £3 and far cheaper the car + parking.

This is a point that I keep trying to make when people complain about the "50% increase". If your regular single fare was more than £3 prior to the cap being introduced, you are not losing out. You are saving slightly less, but you're still better off that you were before the fare cap was introduced!

Here in York it is now a staggering £3 for a 1.5 mile journey into town with FirstBus scheduled to take just 10 mins in the middle of the day, or 8 min in late evenings.
First have said there are "cheaper fares for shorter journeys" available. I find it hard to believe 1.5miles shouldn't be classed as a short journey, and £6 return is a joke for this distance.

Ouch. I'd agree that £3 for such a short journey is unacceptable. I'm not surprised, though - if I was to make a 2.1-mile journey to the next village, it would cost me £3.90 (no cap here, sadly).

I do find it hilarious that a three mile journey costing £3 single or £6 return is considered a "special offer" for which a publicly-funded grant is needed on top.

Equally it's ridiculous for public money to subsidise Leeds to Whitby journeys so that they only cost £3, while starving other parts of the country.

Exactly. The £2 cap worked really well because it fit just about for this sort of trip, and then for anything longer, such as the above Tunbridge Wells to Brighton, or the really long ones commonly done, like York to Scarborough or Hull to York, it was an absolute steal. The £3 fares are generally a rip off for this sort of journey because surprise surprise most operators are charging £3 for 1.5 miles, just like everyone knew they would. There are only a few isolated examples of 3/4 mile journeys costing less, such as Stony Stratford to Centre Milton Keynes.

I don't think that capping fares was a bad idea, but I think that it could have been better implemented. Rather than capping fares at a set amount, perhaps the government should have insisted on capping the fares at a certain percentage of the standard fare, or insisting on a per-mile cap.

We're left with the rather perverted situation where someone can hop on a bus and go out for a jolly day out for the price of two cups of coffee while someone who simply wishes to use the bus to go to their local supermarket pays the same amount of money for a journey that's actually more necessary.

The scheme was supposed to alleviate the "cost of living crisis" for regular bus travellers, but it seems to have spawned a new generation of people who discovered that they could get a lot for very little. All of a sudden they're up in arms because the £2 bus journey that they'd never have considered before has gone up by 50%. These people have no idea how much it cost regular bus travellers before the cap.

I sympathise with people whose short-hop journeys have gone up in price, but I have zero sympathy for those who essentially abuse the system and then complain that they have to fork out an extra quid or two for a day out.

Keeping prices artificially low is all well and good but it will backfire when reality hits.

 

[Via Bank]

If your regular single fare was more than £3 prior to the cap being introduced, you are not losing out. You are saving slightly less, but you're still better off that you were before the fare cap was introduced!

I’m sorry but this is nonsense. Those people who may have been tempted onto the bus by the £2 fare cap have now seen a 50% increase at the fare box. That’s the price they pay, which frankly is all that matters. And it does hurt, and it’s going to drive people back to their cars.

If we want a future where more people get the bus, headline fares have to be lower. If that means government has to step in to keep them artificially low, tough.

 

[Harpo]

Whilst some operators have fares below £3, for most of England, £3 is now the defacto flat-rate fare for a single journey.

Certainly how it feels. I can’t even find fares tables for many services near me. Is it even a legal requirement to publish them?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Such a concession in the UK will come at a cost (because some existing passengers currently buying two tickets will instead only have to pay for one). Who is going to pay for this revenue loss, and probably more practically, how would it be calculated?

If I were to hypothesise (and that's all this is) that such a move would actually encourage more bus use and thereby bring with it more revenue, then there is no revenue loss. It's my hypothesis that it was increasing fare levels that contributed massively to the huge drop in user numbers and that, in a parallel universe, if fares had not risen in the last 20 years or so by double the rate of inflation, operators might well be enjoying more income than they presently do. Of course, we can never predict the "what if" with any accuracy.

 

[Kite159]

£3 single cap from the £2 is still better than in Wales or most of Scotland. Considering the £2 fare cap was originally only going to last 3 months from January 2023.

£3 cap is better than the cap disappearing all together going back to the days where the prices can be a mystery and some operators charging an arm and a leg (£5+ for a journey between towns without railway etc).

What needs better promotion is the day/weekly tickets as well as the availability of daily (or longer) multi operator bus ranger tickets (like in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire or the Solent) considering those can potentially be cheaper if you use multiple buses

 

[stevieinselby]

I don't think that capping fares was a bad idea, but I think that it could have been better implemented. Rather than capping fares at a set amount, perhaps the government should have insisted on capping the fares at a certain percentage of the standard fare, or insisting on a per-mile cap.

One of the big appeals of the £2 fare cap was its simplicity, from a marketing perspective. Everyone knows the fare (on participating operators) will be £2.
While "half-price" is a relatively simple concept as well, that assumes you know the fare beforehand, otherwise you still won't know how much a journey will cost – and it's going to lead to some odd fares of awkward numbers, which is a pain for people paying in actual money.
And per-mile fares don't reflect the cost of provision – it's more expensive per mile to run an urban service than a rural service.

I agree that it instinctively doesn't feel right that people going a mile into town pay the same as people going 30 miles for a day out, but ultimately, there is no single way of calculating a fare cap that is simple, straightforward and fair to all passengers and operators. So in the absence of an alternative that is clearly and unambiguously better, I'm not going to be too critical about the choice of a flat fare cap.

 

[Starmill]

£3 single cap from the £2 is still better than in Wales or most of Scotland. Considering the £2 fare cap was originally only going to last 3 months from January 2023.

£3 cap is better than the cap disappearing all together going back to the days where the prices can be a mystery and some operators charging an arm and a leg (£5+ for a journey between towns without railway etc).

What needs better promotion is the day/weekly tickets as well as the availability of daily (or longer) multi operator bus ranger tickets (like in Wiltshire, Oxfordshire or the Solent) considering those can potentially be cheaper if you use multiple buses

One of the reasons the £2 cap worked well was because it covered almost all routes, including in areas without an interavailable day ticket (which is a lot of England outside the Combined Authority areas). It also worked well because it meant you weren't penalised for using the train or a taxi one way and then the bus the other. I would imagine that the costs of implementing interavailable return or day tickets, even if they do cost £6, across all of England would be a lot more than the £2 cap was so that certainly doesn't seem likely any time soon. Interavailable tickets between buses and trains are very rare outside of the combined authority areas.

 

[DDB]

I think that the response to the cap being raised depends heavily on what sort of territory it was like pre-£2 cap.

Here in York it is now a staggering £3 for a 1.5 mile journey into town with FirstBus scheduled to take just 10 mins in the middle of the day, or 8 min in late evenings.
First have said there are "cheaper fares for shorter journeys" available. I find it hard to believe 1.5miles shouldn't be classed as a short journey, and £6 return is a joke for this distance.
Having spoke to some (not so) old friends at First and seen the data behind the fare stages, the "cheaper" distance fares are literally 1 or 2 stop hops, so much that anyone using the bus is pretty much guaranteed to end up paying a full £3 single.
It should not cost £6 to go on a ten minute journey to town and back...

However lots if people will in practice pay less than £6 a day as according to the website there various discounts and daily and weekly capping so anyone using a bus for a standard 5 day a week commute for instance won't be paying £6 a day but £22 for 5 days.

The single fares are also listed as £1.5 £2 £2.6 and £3 depending on distance.

Fares

As you may know, the UK Government has announced a new £3 flat fare cap in England – which means some of our fares will be changing from 1st January 2025. We’re also simplifying the way we charge our customers to make it fairer for everyone. You’ll now only be charged for how far you’ve...

www.firstbus.co.uk

 

[dodecahedron67]

The single fares are also listed as £1.5 £2 £2.6 and £3 depending on distance.

Fares

As you may know, the UK Government has announced a new £3 flat fare cap in England – which means some of our fares will be changing from 1st January 2025. We’re also simplifying the way we charge our customers to make it fairer for everyone. You’ll now only be charged for how far you’ve...

www.firstbus.co.uk

As I’ve mentioned I’ve seen the data behind what is a £1.50/£2/£2.60/£3 fare and the vast majority are £3…

Also I strongly dislike not publishing fare tables and being expected to turn up and either ask on the day or just pay and see what you get charged via TOTO

 

[TravelDream]

Most? Or some?

The Lancaster Park and Ride bus fare (just off the M6), is £1.70 return with free parking all day. An absolute bargain.

Outside of franchised/ LA controlled areas (like London TFL or Manchester Bee), it's most.

It's easy to cherry pick examples, but easily the majority of routes will now be £3 as the defacto single.

 

[sjpowermac]

As I’ve mentioned I’ve seen the data behind what is a £1.50/£2/£2.60/£3 fare and the vast majority are £3…

Also I strongly dislike not publishing fare tables and being expected to turn up and either ask on the day or just pay and see what you get charged via TOTO

Agree totally with everything you have said.

Previously First York offered ‘5 day bundles’ at £15.70, essentially all day use any five days in seven, ideal for getting to work. The offer has now been withdrawn leaving the option of a weekly ticket at £25 or ‘tap on, tap off’.

All a complete rip off for the type of journey you mentioned.

 

[RT4038]

If I were to hypothesise (and that's all this is) that such a move would actually encourage more bus use and thereby bring with it more revenue, then there is no revenue loss.

It probably would encourage more bus use, but I think there is little evidence that fare cuts bring in net additional revenue, at least in the short term. However, in the short term the bus operator has still got to pay their costs, so there is little or no reason for them to make such a risky move and damage the finances of their company. If the taxpayers, via the Government, wish to underwrite such a risk then so be it, but the unquantifiable nature of such a fare change I think probably means that this is unlikely to happen without Govt. taking on the revenue risk of bus services in general.

It's my hypothesis that it was increasing fare levels that contributed massively to the huge drop in user numbers and that, in a parallel universe, if fares had not risen in the last 20 years or so by double the rate of inflation, operators might well be enjoying more income than they presently do. Of course, we can never predict the "what if" with any accuracy.

I think this is somewhat unlikely. Drops in user numbers can be matched by reductions in service provided. Failing to increase fares to match the shortfall between revenue and costs (which may not be following general inflation trends) seems to generally result in dismissal for the decision makers and ultimately bankruptcy for the Company.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Worth noting perhaps that National Express West Midlands flat single fare will be £2.90 from this Sunday - a very generous 10p below the £3 cap.

Like others have said, this feels reasonable for a longer journey between two towns / cities, say if I was going all the way from Wolves to Dudley, but if I'm just getting the bus into town to connect with the train, it feels like a lot.