How to avoid the airport public transport tax surcharges.

[neilmc]

BUDAPEST AIRPORT - BUDAPEST CENTRE

The direct bus number 100E costs 1500HUF (about £3.30)

However if you catch bus 200E from the airport to Kobanya-Kispest interchange then catch the metro each section costs 350HUF plus if you buy city travelcards at the airport they are valid on the 200E/metro but not on the 100E, and the metro may well take you closer to where you want to go.

The 200E will also take you to the airport railway station and you can get a train to Nyugati station if this is convenient or you are connecting to somewhere else from there by train, this train fare depends on the type of train you catch but I think you can use a travelcard again. Last time we were in Hungary we came in from the east (Szolnok) directly to the airport station without traversing Budapest at all.

Having said that I don't really consider 1500HUF an onerous fare compared to the UK ripoffs.

 

[deltic]

Yes i suppose technically some of them are not taxes or surcharges. It is just a case of public transport companies profiteering as they know that they can get away with charging more for airport services. But i just did not know what other term to use.

No it's a case of making some of the richest people in society pay the full cost of their transport, not clear why tax payers should subsidise people travelling to and from airports.

 

[redreni]

Regarding the thread title, I believe 'premium' is how transport planners describe the difference between the fares to/from airports compared to the regular public transport fares. I don't think 'surcharge' is an unfair description at all. 'Tax' may also be fair in some cases, especially if (as in many cities and regions) the government essentially controls the fares, or if the government owns the airport or the infrastructure and levies a charge on transport operators that they know will have to be passed on to passengers. Governments don't get to define which of the charges they impose count as taxes - if they did, nothing would be called a tax.

Worth mentioning the honourable exceptions where no premium is charged: e.g. London City Airport, Lisbon Airport, Toronto Billy Bishop Island Airport, Nuremberg Airport.

And finally, turning to the point of the thread, according to this thread there is a £5.60 fare from Glasgow City Centre to Glasgow Airport via the express bus, though you need to get it from a rail ticket office and they may or may not consider that you need to hold a train ticket (though this isn't stated in the ticket restrictions).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2024 ==

No it's a case of making some of the richest people in society pay the full cost of their transport, not clear why tax payers should subsidise people travelling to and from airports.

I'm all for taxing the rich, however, I'd much rather tax them if they park at the airport or if they are set down or picked up by taxi or private car. It's unclear why you'd want to tax them for taking public transport? That's what we want them to do, isn't it? It's particularly unfortunate if airport workers end up paying the premium airport fares, since they're not rich, generally speaking.

And if you just want to tax airline passengers irrespective of how they travel to or from the airport (which we absolutely should), then you need to do it through duty on aviation fuel and/or air passenger duty.

 

[renegademaster]

Deleted.

 

[deltic]

I'm all for taxing the rich, however, I'd much rather tax them if they park at the airport or if they are set down or picked up by taxi or private car. It's unclear why you'd want to tax them for taking public transport? That's what we want them to do, isn't it? It's particularly unfortunate if airport workers end up paying the premium airport fares, since they're not rich, generally speaking.

And if you just want to tax airline passengers irrespective of how they travel to or from the airport (which we absolutely should), then you need to do it through duty on aviation fuel and/or air passenger duty.

Public transport is generally heavily subsidised. Charging higher fares on airport services which are disproportionately used by higher earners either means we are not subsidising those people or if the service is profitable means better public transport services elsewhere. Many airports do have high charges for parking and also drop-off/pick-up charges. Airport workers often get discounted public transport fares on premium services. There are lots of issues with trying to charge duty on aviation fuel and air passenger duty which if not done at a global or regional levels leads to a number of unintended consequences and distortions in the market.

 

[renegademaster]

Public transport is generally heavily subsidised. Charging higher fares on airport services which are disproportionately used by higher earners either means we are not subsidising those people or if the service is profitable means better public transport services elsewhere. Many airports do have high charges for parking and also drop-off/pick-up charges. Airport workers often get discounted public transport fares on premium services. There are lots of issues with trying to charge duty on aviation fuel and air passenger duty which if not done at a global or regional levels leads to a number of unintended consequences and distortions in the market.

Is air travel really the disproportionately better off, especially among people who'd use public transport once they arrive. A flight is cheaper than a London Glasgow train and you can fly across Europe for £20 with wizz.

Also I suspect airport services are probably one of the few services that can run profitably with a £2 fare. Nothing else can fill an 4bph Enviro400 both ways reliably from 6am till midnight, doubt much subsidy will be involved

 

[redreni]

Public transport is generally heavily subsidised. Charging higher fares on airport services which are disproportionately used by higher earners either means we are not subsidising those people or if the service is profitable means better public transport services elsewhere. Many airports do have high charges for parking and also drop-off/pick-up charges. Airport workers often get discounted public transport fares on premium services. There are lots of issues with trying to charge duty on aviation fuel and air passenger duty which if not done at a global or regional levels leads to a number of unintended consequences and distortions in the market.

Yes, we have drop-off/pick up charges in some places, but they're a joke.

Consider a family of 4 going to Heathrow.

If they drive themselves and park, they only pay for the parking.

If they get dropped off by a friend or a taxi, there's a charge of £1.25 per person (although they can avoid it by being dropped off at the long stay car park and taking the free bus to the terminal).

If they take the Elizabeth Line the premium is £6.65 per adult if travelling via zone 1 (and if we assume the children are over 11 years old, they may or may not be able to access a 50% discount for them). On the Heathrow Express it is nearly £20 per adult (these by comparison with the normal zonal TfL fare).

You've perhaps made a reasonable case for some sort of modest premium on airport services if staff are exempted (which they're not always), but there is no justification whatsoever for the status quo.

When you speak of unintended consequences of taxing aviation fuel I assume you mean tankering? That just needs banning outright, although I accept it's not straightforward to do that. Imposing disproportionate costs on the least irresponsible subset of airline passengers (those who at least use public transport to get between the airport and the city centre) is not a reasonable alternative, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2024 ==

Is air travel really the disproportionately better off, especially among people who'd use public transport once they arrive. A flight is cheaper than a London Glasgow train and you can fly across Europe for £20 with wizz.

Also I suspect airport services are probably one of the few services that can run profitably with a £2 fare. Nothing else can fill an 4bph Enviro400 both ways reliably from 6am till midnight, doubt much subsidy will be involved

Agreed.

I've flown domestically four times this year and in each case it is because the flights were cheaper than the train (even factoring in airport transfers), or because I booked the flights when the advance rail fares weren't available yet and I suspected the flights may well be cheaper overall and wasn't going to wait to find out.

I don't think we should make crude assumptions about passengers' income. Rather, we should disincentivise what we want to discourage.

 

[deltic]

Is air travel really the disproportionately better off, especially among people who'd use public transport once they arrive. A flight is cheaper than a London Glasgow train and you can fly across Europe for £20 with wizz.

Yes - from the BBC.

In the UK, 70% of flights are made by a wealthy 15% of the population, with 57% not flying abroad at all.

 

[renegademaster]

In the UK, 70% of flights are made by a wealthy 15% of the population, with 57% not flying abroad at all.

What are the same statistics for trains in the UK? I suspect higher than median income too, especially for intercity.Bus and car and probably more skewed to working class.

 

[Watershed]

When you speak of unintended consequences of taxing aviation fuel I assume you mean tankering? That just needs banning outright, although I accept it's not straightforward to do that.

It'd be almost impossible to ban tankering (you can't really regulate something that happens abroad). But you could quite easily introduce a sales tax for fuel uplifted in the UK, and an equivalent surcharge on the anticipated fuel burn for those airlines that decide to engage in tankering, thus eliminating any financial advantage.

Imposing disproportionate costs on the least irresponsible subset of airline passengers (those who at least use public transport to get between the airport and the city centre) is not a reasonable alternative, though.

Agreed. Unfortunately these passengers are seen as "fair game" for ripoff fares.

 

[redreni]

What are the same statistics for trains in the UK? I suspect higher than median income too, especially for intercity.Bus and car and probably more skewed to working class.

Put it this way: if it is true that airline passengers are rich, that doesn't mean it isn't true that the subset of airline passengers who fly short haul and pay fares that are cheaper than the rail fare for the same journey, are not as rich as those who make the same journey by train.

 

[Gaelan]

My view is that transport to the airport, from some reasonable "local" area, should be included in the price of the plane ticket. Airlines would of course be free to increase airfare to compensate if they think they can get away with it. This would have the benefits of reducing hidden costs, and encouraging the use of public transport to airpots.

 

[redreni]

My view is that transport to the airport, from some reasonable "local" area, should be included in the price of the plane ticket. Airlines would of course be free to increase airfare to compensate if they think they can get away with it. This would have the benefits of reducing hidden costs, and encouraging the use of public transport to airpots.

Fully agree.

We have far too many industries that still have an early post-war era mindset of catering the motorist. I'm getting rather tired of subsidising other people's parking. (I don't mean airports, here, but it's so common for other businesses like restaurants, shops etc to do this that it is almost unfair to single out specific examples.)

We absolutely should normalise the idea that you pay for parking when you use it, but you pay for public transport whether you use it or not.

 

[miklcct]

Hong Kong
HK$21.7 on city bus E11 / E11A, journey time 60 to 75 minutes, every 20-40 minutes
HK$3.7 + HK$23.6 (card) / $27.0 (ticket) on city bus S1 / S56 to Tung Chung, then underground Tung Chung line to Central, journey time 50 to 60 minutes, every 6-10 minutes.
HK$41.9 on airport bus A11, journey time 40 minutes, every 15-30 minutes
HK$70 on the Airport Express to Tsing Yi then free transfer by Octopus card on Tung Chung line to Hong Kong (same route as the above, but a few more stops), journey time ~35 minutes, every 10 minutes.
HK$115 on the Airport Express, journey time 24 minutes, every 10 minutes

 

[redreni]

Hong Kong
HK$21.7 on city bus E11 / E11A, journey time 60 to 75 minutes, every 20-40 minutes
HK$3.7 + HK$23.6 (card) / $27.0 (ticket) on city bus S1 / S56 to Tung Chung, then underground Tung Chung line to Central, journey time 50 to 60 minutes, every 6-10 minutes.
HK$41.9 on airport bus A11, journey time 40 minutes, every 15-30 minutes
HK$70 on the Airport Express to Tsing Yi then free transfer by Octopus card on Tung Chung line to Hong Kong (same route as the above, but a few more stops), journey time ~35 minutes, every 10 minutes.
HK$115 on the Airport Express, journey time 24 minutes, every 10 minutes

And to think back in the day it used to be free - just a modest amount of shoe leather!

 

[Amos]

And to think back in the day it used to be free - just a modest amount of shoe leather!

Slightly less stressful landing now though

 

[renegademaster]

Glasgow is one of the worst places for the premium it costs for a 20 minute bus ride. The bus itself is odd but quite nice. An enviro400 with well padded seats and many tables on the top deck. Would probably be better to make it all airline seating though, its not the most frequent bus in the world , if you miss a bus due to capacity you will be waiting another 15 minutes .

 

[redreni]

Glasgow is one of the worst places for the premium it costs for a 20 minute bus ride. The bus itself is odd but quite nice. An enviro400 with well padded seats and many tables on the top deck. Would probably be better to make it all airline seating though, its not the most frequent bus in the world , if you miss a bus due to capacity you will be waiting another 15 minutes .

I used it last month. Queen Street ticket office had sold me a single to Glasgow Airport Xbus for £5.65 the previous day no problem at all.

Infuriatingly, the USB charging sockets didn't work (I checked with the driver to make sure he hadn't just forgotten to turn them on, but no luck). The airport terminal had about 9 mains sockets available, next to pillars, which were apparently supposed to be enough for everyone. All in all not great when you've an evening flight and your battery is low!

 

[signed]

FRANCE - PARIS - CHARLES DE GAULLE:
EUR 4.30:
Bus Line 350 to Porte de la Chapelle (single EUR2.15, 60min, every 20min at every terminal)
Metro Line 12 to City center (single EUR2.15, every 5-10min)
EUR 4.30:
CDGVal to Terminal 3 Roissypôle (free, every 5min.)
Bus Line 351 to Nation (single EUR2.10, 80min, every 20min)
Metro to the city center (single EUR2.15)

FRANCE - PARIS - ORLY

With the opening of the Line 14 extension to Orly, you can get to any rail station in the region for EUR10.30 (departure only on Line 14)

It could be well worth it to get a Zone 1-4 Navigo pass which is EUR14.35 for 1 day and includes Line 14 to Orly.

FRANCE - NANTES - ATLANTIQUE

EUR 10 : The Navette Aéroport direct to the SNCF Railway station then through the city center (~20min, every 20 to 30min.)
The options below are free of charge (as is the whole network) on weekends, the Navette Aéroport isn't
EUR 1.80: Line 38 (directly at the Airport) to Pirmil - Tram 2 or 3 to the city center (~40min, every 20 to 40min.)
EUR 1.80: Line 96 (5 min walk away from the airport at the stop Aéroclub) to Neustrie - Tram 3 to the city center (~40min, every 20 to 40min.)

FRANCE - TOULOUSE BLAGNAC

The airport used to be linked to the center with the Tram 2 line for EUR 1.80, but it has been shut to give way to the new metro line and a dedicated (probably for charge) airport tram in 2026-2028

EUR 9: Coach to city center and Toulouse Matabiau SNCF station (25min, every 15min)
EUR 1.80: Line 31 to Guyenne-Berry or Pasteur-Mairie de Blagnac - Tram T1 to Arènes - Metro A to the city center (~50min, every 10 to 15min)
EUR 1.80: Line 30 to Odyssud-Ritouret - Tram T1 to Arènes - Metro A to the city center (50min, every 10 to 15min) (~45min, every 20min in the peak)

FRANCE - BREST GUIPAVAS
EUR 1.7 (single) : Line 20 to Porte de Gouesnou - Tram A to city center

FRANCE - RENNES ST JACQUES
EUR 1.7 (single) : Line C6 from the airport to Saint-Jacques Gaité (every 15-20min.) - Metro b to the city center

 

[zero]

Glasgow is one of the worst places for the premium it costs for a 20 minute bus ride. The bus itself is odd but quite nice. An enviro400 with well padded seats and many tables on the top deck. Would probably be better to make it all airline seating though, its not the most frequent bus in the world , if you miss a bus due to capacity you will be waiting another 15 minutes .

It is timetabled at 6bph for weekday daytimes and 5bph for weekend daytimes, that's pretty frequent. When I missed a bus due to capacity the next one was already waiting by the time the full bus departed, and since they often have a ticket checker at the airport at busy times, everyone was able to get on while the driver had their break.

Going to the airport yes sometimes the wait feels very long particularly if not starting at Buchanan.

The 77 is not a great alternative though unless you truly have nothing better to do

 

[Butts]

One of the greatest advantages of being a "coffin dodger" like me (over 60 in Scotland) is being able to board these extortionately priced Bus Services to Edinburgh and Glasgow Airports free of charge utilising your Bus Pass.

Be it the 100 or 747 to Edinburgh or 500 to Glasgow there's no greater feeling than swerving the up to a tenner others have to part with.

My only gripe is that this does not apply to the Tram to Edinburgh Airport unless you are a resident of Auld Reekie

In all honesty I'm surprised Premium Airport Services are not excluded.

 

[redreni]

One of the greatest advantages of being a "coffin dodger" like me (over 60 in Scotland) is being able to board these extortionately priced Bus Services to Edinburgh and Glasgow Airports free of charge utilising your Bus Pass.

Be it the 100 or 747 to Edinburgh or 500 to Glasgow there's no greater feeling than swerving the up to a tenner others have to part with.

My only gripe is that this does not apply to the Tram to Edinburgh Airport unless you are a resident of Auld Reekie

In all honesty I'm surprised Premium Airport Services are not excluded.

Shhhh!

 

[signed]

FRANCE - PARIS - ORLY
With the opening of Line 14, the ticket price is steep to/from Orly
There are a few ways to avoid the extra charge to/from the station :
EUR 4.30 (in non Olympic times) : Take the Tram 7 from Terminal 4 (take the free OrlyVal shuttle from Orly 1-2-3 to 4) to Chevilly-Larue (20min) then Line 14 at normal price to the city center
EUR 4.30 : Take bus 183 from T1-2-3 to Gare de Thiais-Orly (6min) then Line 14 at Thiais - Orly

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @stadler to update

 

[stadler]

Thank you. Just wanted to post an update regarding some recent fare increases. This has created some even more expensive airport services. I am updating some of the fares on post one two.

I have just seen that the recent Paris fare changes from the 1st of January have increased the Airport fares to an extortionate EUR13.00 for any single journey to or from CDG and Orly airports.

This means that:

• Orly Airport to Thais Orly (Metro Line 14) is EUR13.00 for a two minute journey (EUR6.50 per minute)

• Orly Airport to Chavilly Larue (Metro Line 14) is EUR13.00 for a four minute journey (EUR3.25 per minute)

• CDG Airport to Parc Des Expositions (RER Line B) is EUR13.00 for a four minute journey (EUR3.25 per minute)

• Orly Airport to L Hay Les Roses (Metro Line 14) is EUR13.00 for a six minute journey (EUR2.17 per minute)

• Orly Airport to Antony (Orlyval) is EUR13.00 for a six minute journey (EUR2.17 per minute)

Charging an extortionate EUR13.00 to go thirty minute to Paris City Centre is bad enough but the fact that they are even charging that price for two minute local journeys makes it even worse.

I thought that the Heathrow Express (£25.00 for 15 minutes or £1.67 per minute) and the Luton DART (£4.90 for four minutes or £1.23 per minute) were bad but this takes it to a new level.

Could the journey from Orly Airport to Thais Orly (EUR13.00 for a two minute journey or EUR6.50 per minute) be the new most expensive rail journey in the world? I am struggling to even find any other rip off airport servicss that are that expensive? Charging EUR13.00 for a two minute journey is crazy! That is EUR6.50 per minute!

Also i see in Sweden the Arlanda Express has increased again this week to SEK340.00 (£24.64) for an eighteen minute journey. This equates to SEK18.89 (£1.37) per minute. Not quite as bad as the Heathrow Express but almost there. Worse than the Luton DART and many other services.

 

[geoffk]

No it's a case of making some of the richest people in society pay the full cost of their transport, not clear why tax payers should subsidise people travelling to and from airports.

Some of these will be relatively low-paid airport workers, albeit making shorter journeys.

 

[signed]

Charging an extortionate EUR13.00 to go thirty minute to Paris City Centre is bad enough but the fact that they are even charging that price for two minute local journeys makes it even worse.

Simplifying to make the price higher. It was the same with the EUR10.40 fare pre-dezone. It's the plot all along, while the monthly pass gets even more expensive to EUR88.50/month (minding that most people will get half reimbursed by their employer)

But I would very much doubt many people would use it to do short journeys at all, especially with airport workers, when the line doesn't serve the non-passenger parts of the airport.

The 183 Bus is EUR2, every 15min, and takes only 5min from Thiais-Orly to the Airport.

 

[stadler]

Simplifying to make the price higher. It was the same with the EUR10.40 fare pre-dezone. It's the plot all along, while the monthly pass gets even more expensive to EUR88.50/month (minding that most people will get half reimbursed by their employer)

But I would very much doubt many people would use it to do short journeys at all, especially with airport workers, when the line doesn't serve the non-passenger parts of the airport.

The 183 Bus is EUR2, every 15min, and takes only 5min from Thiais-Orly to the Airport.

That is true. I am sure airport workers would take the 183 bus. But there is one or two airport hotels right by Thais Orly station and i can easily imagine tourists staying there being directed towards the Line 14 metro and paying EUR13.00 for a two minute journey. Unfortunately with all of these airport rip offs (this applies to all of them) many tourists do not realise that cheaper options are available.

 

[signed]

i can easily imagine tourists staying there being directed towards the Line 14 metro and paying EUR13.00 for a two minute journey

I don't know, I would much more expect people to be directed to taxis. With heavy luggage, neither Line 14 or 183 bus are that confortable to run on (no luggage racks on either, the RER B + OrlyVal or OrlyBus is much better suited to luggage passengers).

 

[stadler]

Cape Town airport deserves a mention on this thread for being the largest and busiest airport in the world with zero public transport. Taking a taxi is really your only option. No rip off public transport any more but instead a rip off taxi. So even worse.

If you want to avoid a taxi then you can walk to one of three local railway stations (Heideveld or Lavistown or Netreg) which are all about a 50 to 60 minute walk. If you are a fast walker than you could do it in about 40 minutes. Then from any these stations you can take a cheap Metro Rail train in to Cape Town which costs only ZAR7.50 (£0.32) so is extremely cheap.

I find it so appalling that such a large major busy international airport serving such a large major city has zero public transport. There are not even any bus stops nearby. The nearest bus stop is a two hour walk. Cape Town has a bus network with extremely limited coverage.

There did used to be a bus service and then it got suspended during covid and never restarted. When the bus service operated they ran a surcharge. All of the other buses gor the same distance cost ZAR10.50 off peak or ZAR11.50 peak while the airport route cost ZAR29.50 off peak or ZAR30.50 peak which is almost triple price. But the bus service seems permanently suspended now and people have to pay for an even more expensive taxi or take an hour walk to a train station.