CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Russel]

The guard’s office on the 350s is not integral - it has been removed on the 450s.

So it was just too much effort to remove it properly on the 350s?

 

[Jez]

According to RTT as things stand of the 3 cars in service we have 3 on on Holyhead-Cardiff's, 5 on Manchester/Cardiff/West Wales, 6 on Manchester-North Wales, 1 on Crewe-Chester and 1 on Cheltenham. Earlier on there were a couple on Liverpool as well so i assume there has been some moving around.

Of the 2 cars according to RTT 25 have been in service on various routes including Maesteg, Bidston, Swanline/Pembroke, Manchester/Cardiff/West Wales and 1 covering a MK4.

So thats I think 40 units in service out of I believe 47 diagrams.

 

[childwallblues]

According to RTT as things stand of the 3 cars in service we have 3 on on Holyhead-Cardiff's, 5 on Manchester/Cardiff/West Wales, 6 on Manchester-North Wales, 1 on Crewe-Chester and 1 on Cheltenham. Earlier on there were a couple on Liverpool as well so i assume there has been some moving around.

Of the 2 cars according to RTT 25 have been in service on various routes including Maesteg, Bidston, Swanline/Pembroke, Manchester/Cardiff/West Wales and 1 covering a MK4.

So thats I think 40 units in service out of I believe 47 diagrams.

197s on Liverpool services quite often get "stolen" resulting in the odd cancelation.

 

[Caaardiff]

197 availability must have improved as this is the current formations on Manchester - South Wales services. Doesn't seem Mk4 availability is doing well though.

0627 - Mk4
0730 - 4 car (booked 5 car)
0830 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
0930 - 5 car
1030 - Mk4
1130 - 3 car (booked 5 car)
1230 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
1330 - 5 car
1430 - Mk4
1530 - 5 car
1630 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
1730 - 5 car
1830 - Mk4
1930 - 2 car (booked 3 car)
2030 - 2 car

 

[Topological]

This is good news, even the cover for the Mk4 is 3-car 197

No 2-cars (Apart from the 19:30) is a massive step forwards.

 

[Jez]

197 availability must have improved as this is the current formations on Manchester - South Wales services. Doesn't seem Mk4 availability is doing well though.

0627 - Mk4
0730 - 4 car (booked 5 car)
0830 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
0930 - 5 car
1030 - Mk4
1130 - 3 car (booked 5 car)
1230 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
1330 - 5 car
1430 - Mk4
1530 - 5 car
1630 - 3 car 197 (booked mk4)
1730 - 5 car
1830 - Mk4
1930 - 2 car (booked 3 car)
2030 - 2 car

Thats great news. Hopefully availability will continue to improve.

 

[sd0733]

Thats great news. Hopefully availability will continue to improve.

It's not really any better, 41 available for 47 diagrams, its been hovering around 40-42 every day. 3 150s covering in the South and a 158 plus a few shortforms. The short forms have been able to be moved off the Manchester route with lots of juggling today.

Another couple of sets have come off tyre turning today which hopefully may start to improve availability.

 

[WirralLine]

123 is at Crewe South Yard and has been there since October but not too sure where 126 is or what stage it's acceptance is at.
It does seem strange that ERTMS units have leapfrogged them in going into sservice

Pretty sure 123 is in the parcels bay at Chester today. Not been used yet, unsure if accepted.

 

[Russel]

What is the reason for the shortage of 197?

Is it that not enough were ordered or are they proving to be a little unreliable?

Despite the apparent faults discussed in this thread, I've used them a few times on the North Wales Coast and I really enjoy them.

 

[Krokodil]

What is the reason for the shortage of 197?

Is it that not enough were ordered or are they proving to be a little unreliable?

Despite the apparent faults discussed in this thread, I've used them a few times on the North Wales Coast and I really enjoy them.

The projected availablity was rather ambitious compared with 175s. I strongly doubt that even when they reach their peak they will meet the target - they might not even match the 175s.

 

[Jez]

It's not really any better, 41 available for 47 diagrams, its been hovering around 40-42 every day. 3 150s covering in the South and a 158 plus a few shortforms. The short forms have been able to be moved off the Manchester route with lots of juggling today.

Another couple of sets have come off tyre turning today which hopefully may start to improve availability.

A 158 is certainly very rare now in South and West Wales.

I caught my first 5 car 197 to Swansea earlier on to get 197003 on return journey and it makes such a difference, plenty of seats available. Its good that some moving around of sets can ensure 5 cars are on lots of Manchesters now.

The projected availablity was rather ambitious compared with 175s. I strongly doubt that even when they reach their peak they will meet the target - they might not even match the 175s.

I believe 23 out of 27 175s were required in service at one point which is about 85%.

Currently 47 out of 58 197s are required which is a slightly less percentage.

 

[WirralLine]

To confirm from my earlier post, 197123 is indeed now in Chester parcels bay and has been at least all afternoon.

Photo attached of 197123 in Chester parcels bay.

 

[chrisjo]

A 158 is certainly very rare now in South and West Wales.

Of course 158's are still pretty much the only units in West Wales, but I suspect I know what you meant to say.

 

[Jez]

Of course 158's are still pretty much the only units in West Wales, but I suspect I know what you meant to say.

I think its obvious I meant West Wales as in Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock and not the Cambrian line

 

[chrisjo]

I think its obvious I meant West Wales as in Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock and not the Cambrian line

Wrth gwrs. It's just that if you're from Ceredigion, Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock barely qualify as Wales at all!

 

[Bikeman78]

I believe 23 out of 27 175s were required in service at one point which is about 85%.

It was 24 out of 27 for many years. It reduced to 23 for the TfW refurbishment.

 

[Jez]

It was 24 out of 27 for many years. It reduced to 23 for the TfW refurbishment.

I had feeling it might have been as it was 24 but wasnt sure. 24 on weekdays and 23 on Saturdays if i remember correctly with an all day 158 diagram on a Manchester-Milford and return on Saturdays.

The 175s needed a huge availability which only really got worse as time went on and 3 or 4 a day were then often covered with Sprinters and then March 2023 onwards availability was dreadful.

The 197s seem to be having poor availability very early on in their life which doesnt really bode well.

if you're from Ceredigion, Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock barely qualify as Wales at all!

Yes thats very true!

 

[craigybagel]

The 197s seem to be having poor availability very early on in their life which doesnt really bode well.

To be fair, the 175s were hardly renowned for their reliability in the early days either. They did settle down eventually, but it took a while to get there.

 

[Broseley man]

To be fair, the 175s were hardly renowned for their reliability in the early days either. They did settle down eventually, but it took a while to get there.

Drove past the Telford Railfreight Depot today and could only see one single TfW coach in evidence. It might have been two, it is tricky to spot and drive!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Drove past the Telford Railfreight Depot today and could only see one single TfW coach in evidence. It might have been two, it is tricky to spot and drive!

Only one half of a 197 left in there now. The terminal is pretty empty now. Another 197 left by road last week.

Realtime Trains | 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Z11 1026 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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197 testing on the Salop line to Birmingham International starts tomorrow. Not the first time 197s have graced the line however.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Only one half of a 197 left in there now. The terminal is pretty empty now. Another 197 left by road last week.

Realtime Trains | 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Z11 1026 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197 testing on the Salop line to Birmingham International starts tomorrow. Not the first time 197s have graced the line however.

My bold - Is that one coach (so one half of a unit) going back to CAF in South Wales I suppose ?.

A spotter question for all.
Would I be right and thinking the best place to spend a day getting 197s would be Shrewsbury ?.
I suppose that is more likely true when the Cambrian 197s are all in service on the Cambrian ?.
Just missing Manchester to North Wales maybe.

 

[Kite159]

My bold - Is that one coach (so one half of a unit) going back to CAF in South Wales I suppose ?.

A spotter question for all.
Would I be right and thinking the best place to spend a day getting 197s would be Shrewsbury ?.
I suppose that is more likely true when the Cambrian 197s are all in service on the Cambrian ?.
Just missing Manchester to North Wales maybe.

I would say Chester would be better, that way you can get the unit on the Crewe shuttle & the 2 on Liverpool trains.

Maybe do half a day in Chester and relocate to Cardiff for the 197s on Cheltenham/Maesteg/Ebbw services

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would say Chester would be better, that way you can get the unit on the Crewe shuttle & the 2 on Liverpool trains.

Maybe do half a day in Chester and relocate to Cardiff for the 197s on Cheltenham/Maesteg/Ebbw services

Thanks. Yes maybe London to Chester to Cardiff to London.
I am in Cardiff a lot any way so getting a few 197 there as time goes by.
I suppose Shrewsbury is nothing more special than Chester until the Cambrian starts using 197s ?.
The twist will be that if I carry on dipping into Cardiff I might only be left with ERTMS 197s by the time they come out of course !.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Thanks. Yes maybe London to Chester to Cardiff to London.
I am in Cardiff a lot any way so getting a few 197 there as time goes by.
I suppose Shrewsbury is nothing more special than Chester until the Cambrian starts using 197s ?.
The twist will be that if I carry on dipping into Cardiff I might only be left with ERTMS 197s by the time they come out of course !.

At Shrewsbury you'll get the 2-hourly Cardiff - North Wales and the 2-hourly Manchester-Southwest Wales, plus any 197s deputising for the 67/Mk4 sets.

At Chester, you'll still get the 2-hourly Cardiff-North Wales units, plus the hourly Manchester Airport - North Wales, hourly Chester - Liverpool and hourly Chester - Crewe.

 

[Anonymous10]

At Shrewsbury you'll get the 2-hourly Cardiff - North Wales and the 2-hourly Manchester-Southwest Wales, plus any 197s deputising for the 67/Mk4 sets.

At Chester, you'll still get the 2-hourly Cardiff-North Wales units, plus the hourly Manchester Airport - North Wales, hourly Chester - Liverpool and hourly Chester - Crewe.

Possibly a stop in Wrexham too just to get the Bidston units, shouldn't take too long?

 

[sd0733]

Realtime Trains | 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Z11 1026 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197 testing on the Salop line to Birmingham International starts tomorrow. Not the first time 197s have graced the line however.

Pencilled in for a 4 car, 197033 and 197047.

 

[tfw756rider]

Pencilled in for a 4 car, 197033 and 197047.

Yes indeed, thanks, although the schedule Jacob linked is for the 15/1/25 (tomorrow as of writing this message), though thanks to him for making us aware in the first place

Here's the schedule for the 14/1/25 (today as of writing this message), operated with 197033+197047 as you say:

Realtime Trains | 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International | 14/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Z11 1026 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on 14/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Edit: 3Z11 was actually operated with a 7-car 197 formation - 197033+197047+197123!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Can confirm today's 3Z11 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International is 197033, 197047 and 197123. I saw then at Telford Central. Photos to follow soon.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I suppose Shrewsbury is nothing more special than Chester until the Cambrian starts using 197s ?.
The twist will be that if I carry on dipping into Cardiff I might only be left with ERTMS 197s by the time they come out of course !.

Unless they are planning to put 6-car trains on most of their Birmingham services (allowing a non-ETCS unit to/from Wrexham etc. to join/split at Shrewsbury) or remove through workings to/from Birmingham for either the Cambrian or Wrexham then I would expect the Cambrian will continue to interwork with Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead. In the latter case, I would expect you would eventually pick up most of ERTMS/ETCS fitted units in Chester, the exception being anything running even-hour Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury shuttles.

 

[Russel]

What are the Cambrian units currently doing, are they stored or in use on other routes?

Apologies if it's been covered on one of the other 275 pages!