CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[12guard4]

What are the Cambrian units currently doing, are they stored or in use on other routes?

Apologies if it's been covered on one of the other 275 pages!

There's some in service with ETCS isolated.

 

[tfw756rider]

What are the Cambrian units currently doing, are they stored or in use on other routes?

Apologies if it's been covered on one of the other 275 pages!

What @12guard4 said. Specifically, 4 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197030, 197031 and 197033) have been in service "off-Cambrian" (with their ETCS isolated), so 58 197s have been in service so far (54 of the 56 non-ETCS 197s - that is all of those except 197123 and 197126 - plus the 4 aforementioned ETCS-fitted 197s), although 197033 has since been 2 of the 7 cars of the 14/1/25 Shrewsbury-Birmingham 197 test runs.

 

[60159]

What @12guard4 said. Specifically, 4 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197030, 197031 and 197033) have been in service "off-Cambrian" (with their ETCS isolated), so 58 197s have been in service so far (54 of the 56 non-ETCS 197s - that is all of those except 197123 and 197126 - plus the 4 aforementioned ETCS-fitted 197s), although 197033 has since been 2 of the 7 cars of the 14/1/25 Shrewsbury-Birmingham 197 test runs.

Are there likely to be more Cambrian units pressed into service?

 

[WirralLine]

Are there likely to be more Cambrian units pressed into service?

I saw one passing Chester a few nights ago still with the plastic bags over the seats and the banners across the doors saying do not board, testing or something. Presumably doing fault free mileage, didn't catch the number though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Unless they are planning to put 6-car trains on most of their Birmingham services (allowing a non-ETCS unit to/from Wrexham etc. to join/split at Shrewsbury) or remove through workings to/from Birmingham for either the Cambrian or Wrexham then I would expect the Cambrian will continue to interwork with Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead. In the latter case, I would expect you would eventually pick up most of ERTMS/ETCS fitted units in Chester, the exception being anything running even-hour Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury shuttles.

Will there be enough ETCS fitted 197s to allow inter-working on non-Cambrian duties to North and South Wales ?.

What @12guard4 said. Specifically, 4 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197030, 197031 and 197033) have been in service "off-Cambrian" (with their ETCS isolated), so 58 197s have been in service so far (54 of the 56 non-ETCS 197s - that is all of those except 197123 and 197126 - plus the 4 aforementioned ETCS-fitted 197s), although 197033 has since been 2 of the 7 cars of the 14/1/25 Shrewsbury-Birmingham 197 test runs.

And just today 197123 appears to have gone into use.
A test run but I wonder if passenger very soon.

Can confirm today's 3Z11 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International is 197033, 197047 and 197123. I saw then at Telford Central. Photos to follow soon.

 

[Krokodil]

Will there be enough ETCS fitted 197s to allow inter-working on non-Cambrian duties to North and South Wales ?.

Interworking with Holyhead, yes. Anything heading South from Sutton Brisge Junction however, or going to Manchester (via either route) is likely tobe either the odd token diagram or some on-the-day allocations by Control if the conventional fleet is short

 

[MP393]

197034 is showing as entering service today on Bidstons. It’s then swapping in to 1W26 at Shrewsbury to Manchester to then end at Crewe tonight, replacing 197102.

 

[Jez]

197034 has entered service today on Bidstons. It’s then swapping in to 1W26 at Shrewsbury to end at Crewe replacing 197102.

Thats good news and if 197123 is in service soon too that will certainly help the shortage of units.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197126 is the last 3 car 197 to be accepted by TFW from CAF.

 

[WAB]

Thats good news and if 197123 is in service soon too that will certainly help the shortage of units.

Does it? If the unit shortage is down to a maintenance backlog, surely these 197s will simply add to that backlog when they inevitably gain faults, and they'll be back to the current availability?

 

[Krokodil]

197036 spotted on mileage runs earlier.

Also heard this going through. Didn’t see what was on it - I presume a 197 rather than an 805 and being driven by a FOC driver.

Realtime Trains | 5T97 1805 Chester to Holyhead Car. M.D. | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 5T97 1805 departure from Chester to Holyhead Car. M.D. on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Does it? If the unit shortage is down to a maintenance backlog, surely these 197s will simply add to that backlog when they inevitably gain faults, and they'll be back to the current availability?

They buy a bit of time.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Here are my follow up photos

Testing, Testing 1,2,3...

TFW Class 197033, 197047 and 197123 working 3Z11 (Shrewsbury Abbey Forgate - Birmingham International) stop at Telford Central with pretend passengers and staff testing out the train equipment before they enter service on the Salop line. An unusual 7 car formation as well. (14/1/25)

 

[Anonymous10]

Here are my follow up photos

Testing, Testing 1,2,3...

TFW Class 197033, 197047 and 197123 working 3Z11 (Shrewsbury Abbey Forgate - Birmingham International) stop at Telford Central with pretend passengers and staff testing out the train equipment before they enter service on the Salop line. An unusual 7 car formation as well. (14/1/25)

I'm wondering if there was some faulty caps hence the need for it to be so long.

 

[Jez]

Here are my follow up photos

Testing, Testing 1,2,3...

TFW Class 197033, 197047 and 197123 working 3Z11 (Shrewsbury Abbey Forgate - Birmingham International) stop at Telford Central with pretend passengers and staff testing out the train equipment before they enter service on the Salop line. An unusual 7 car formation as well. (14/1/25)

How soon are they expected to start in passenger service on Shrewsbury-Birmingham? Given the train crew that sign this route should already be trained on 197s.

It seems they have got around the issue of a Sprinter covering a service that is meant to divide at Swansea. The 1130 Manchester to Milford Haven is formed of 2 x 2 car 197 and will be replaced at Swansea with a Sprinter (in this case a 158) when usually it would be Cardiff where a swap would take place.

 

[Lewisham2221]

How soon are they expected to start in passenger service on Shrewsbury-Birmingham? Given the train crew that sign this route should already be trained on 197s.

AFAIK Machynlleth guards sign SHR-BHI, but don't currently sign anything other than 158's.

The unit diagrams for BHI services all include work on the Cambrian too.

The units themselves are currently cleared for ECS moves on the route, the current test runs are - I think - for things like stopping positions and ASDO configuration.

Given the first two points above, I'd guess that it's unlikely (although certainly not impossible) to see 197s in passenger service on the line until the ETCS units start entering service on the Cambrian.

 

[Krokodil]

Given the first two points above, I'd guess that it's unlikely (although certainly not impossible) to see 197s in passenger service on the line until the ETCS units start entering service on the Cambrian.

It'll give Control more options when short of 158s. There may be the odd STP diagram which set swaps on the way back from Birmingham, rather than on the way there. We'll see

 

[LowLevel]

It'll give Control more options when short of 158s. There may be the odd STP diagram which set swaps on the way back from Birmingham, rather than on the way there. We'll see

Exactly, it would be sensible to do that in much the same way you used to get the occasional 175 sub back in the day - having options is good.

 

[MP393]

I'm wondering if there was some faulty caps hence the need for it to be so long.

I believe one or two trains (one AM peak and one PM peak I think) will be booked 7 car 197 eventually so they’ll be testing as a 7 as the maximum permitted formation

 

[sd0733]

I'm wondering if there was some faulty caps hence the need for it to be so long.

There was always a plan to do long formation testing as it gives options. The main stops TfW stops at are mostly long anyway anf its a very busy route so being able to put them as 7s on busy services will be a help.
Originally there was going to be 4 car then 7 but seems that plan was superceded and went straight for the 7.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It'll give Control more options when short of 158s. There may be the odd STP diagram which set swaps on the way back from Birmingham, rather than on the way there. We'll see

Exactly, it would be sensible to do that in much the same way you used to get the occasional 175 sub back in the day - having options is good.

Oh, of course it will be an option. I meant more that there's not likely to be any regular/booked work. The recent 158 shortage saw some 153 usage SHR-BHI, but did cause some issues with Machynlleth guards not signing them.

Of course, with the current 197 availability, you'll want some more units accepted before you can afford to start sending them to Birmingham as well.

With that in mind, is there any confirmed update as to whether the Cambrian changeover will be a gradual one, or a "big bang"?

 

[craigybagel]

I believe one or two trains (one AM peak and one PM peak I think) will be booked 7 car 197 eventually so they’ll be testing as a 7 as the maximum permitted formation

We'll know if it's planned on being a regular thing as even with ASDO 7 car sets won't be able to call at Wellington heading towards Birmingham.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

We'll know if it's planned on being a regular thing as even with ASDO 7 car sets won't be able to call at Wellington heading towards Birmingham.

Why's that? It looks like there are points behind and a signal in front but could they not overshoot by a carriage to clear the points and then not open the front 2 or 3 door sets? It doesn't look like many trains (if any) get overtaken there.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

How soon are they expected to start in passenger service on Shrewsbury-Birmingham? Given the train crew that sign this route should already be trained on 197s.

It seems they have got around the issue of a Sprinter covering a service that is meant to divide at Swansea. The 1130 Manchester to Milford Haven is formed of 2 x 2 car 197 and will be replaced at Swansea with a Sprinter (in this case a 158) when usually it would be Cardiff where a swap would take place.

Hopefully summer timetable change.

 

[craigybagel]

Why's that? It looks like there are points behind and a signal in front but could they not overshoot by a carriage to clear the points and then not open the front 2 or 3 door sets? It doesn't look like many trains (if any) get overtaken there.

I don't know for certain, but I would assume it's not permissable to have a stop car marker beyond a start signal, and if you don't go past it you'll end up with the rear overhanging the points.

 

[Steveswan10]

Is there any option for TFW to order more units if needed-or extra carriages?

 

[Krokodil]

Is there any option for TFW to order more units if needed-or extra carriages?

Yes, subject to funding being available (which should give you an idea of how likely it is)

 

[Steveswan10]

Yes, subject to funding being available (which should give you an idea of how likely it is)

Lol yeah very true

 

[40029 Saxonia]

Just for the record, I have observed all the in-service 2 car 197s operating on the Bidston route except 197043. Including 197003/30/31/33/34

 

[Jez]

A quick search on RTT for Neath to Manchester all day services it shows all but one service is 5 car. And the one that isnt is 4 car. This is excellent progress. Even the service that goes via the district line in the morning and therefore misses Neath is a 5 car. In the other direction it looks like most are 5 car except the 1530 which is 2 car. I see that on the up journey its also a 2 car from Cardiff. Assume the unit needs to come off for some reason but good capacity for the busy Swansea-Cardiff section of the route on a Saturday morning.

I know that Sprinters have still been covering quite a bit but it seems they are keeping them on services that need a 197 the least e.g Swanline/Pembroke Dock and Maesteg/Ebbw Vale.

 

[Caaardiff]

Given the first two points above, I'd guess that it's unlikely (although certainly not impossible) to see 197s in passenger service on the line until the ETCS units start entering service on the Cambrian

When Talerddig happened and quite a bad availability of 158's during winter, the clearance of the Birmingham route was brought forward to create more flexibility in using 197's. I've noticed a lot of swaps at Shrewsbury in the past few months. Not great for passengers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point this year there will start to be changes to the Cambrian workings. Eventually I think the plan is to isolate the 158's to the Cambrian until the full 197 changeover.

Is there any option for TFW to order more units if needed-or extra carriages?

I can't see TFW taking on anymore 197's as there's an already well discussed issue of CAF not having the capacity to maintain them. Once the whole TFW fleet is bedded in then it's unlikely TFW will need anymore units.
It's just a shame 3 cars weren't ordered for the Cambrian.