ScotRail HST replacement tender issued - ideas thread

[43096]

My proposal is all 27 sets.

How does that work when all the pointers are that there is already an agreement to lease a few sets elsewhere for one of the open access operations?

 

[Clansman]

Is there demand for a whole coach of first class on these routes?

Yes, absolutely. To give you an idea, LNER regularly have 70+ first class passengers and a full first class on weekdays - at least half of which are domestic Scottish passengers. The same applies to a fair chunk of standard, which is full and standing at weekends more than it isn't and easing off at Edinburgh.

As previous users have said, if marketed properly and consistency in service maintained, we'll see the type of shift in demand or regeneration for demand in first class that ScotRail were initially pushing for on the HSTs. Which would have been successful if it weren't for Covid and the general fact that the HSTs have since proved to be unreliable junk mechanically.

Inverness services out of Edinburgh are particularly notorious, a 6-car 222 won't cope either given the mods required to increase luggage space which inevitably will sacrifice seats on what is already a design inherent with space inefficiency - especially considering a 5-car HST doesn't have enough luggage capacity for both heavy items and bikes despite ScotRail HSTs having the most luggage dense design of any passenger Mk3 configuration since they were introduced.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Coach C would be changed so that the Buffet Bar is entirely removed and converted to a combined luggage/bike space storage area. I had intended to house this in the old Galley but owing to short platforms being a problem in some areas, I felt that this would have been somewhat flawed.

Coach F (previously Coach G) would be untouched in terms of a seating layout. The Galley is entirely removed to create a single whole coach of First Class. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Can see the logic in adapting Coach "C" to have extra luggage / bike storage, but I would be most disappointed if by taking the Galley out completely as well we are condemned to still have nothing better than a luke warm trolley coffee on journeys of over 3 hours.
Scotrail won't be drawing much custom from LNER on the Highland Main Line with that.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Can see the logic in adapting Coach "C" to have extra luggage / bike storage, but I would be most disappointed if by taking the Galley out completely as well we are condemned to still have nothing better than a luke warm trolley coffee on journeys of over 3 hours.
Scotrail won't be drawing much custom from LNER on the Highland Main Line with that.

I think the bike storage has to be moved. It’s currently in a driving vehicle which if trailing, obviously won’t work. It only has space for 2 bikes anyway which for ScotRail is pretty useless.

I guess you could keep the galley and scrap the idea of a trolley storage. The only flaw is first class would be tiny and I’m not sure about anyone else but I’ve never been a fan of composite coaches. You’d have to keep that for it to work.

It really depends what ScotRail’s intentions are. They’d have to have at least 2 hosts onboard for an improved first class to have a chance of working. One for First Class and one for the trolley.

 

[PG]

The more I read about it, the less confident I am that the 222s will solve any of the current problems, with the possible exception of reliability.

 

[Scotrail84]

The more I read about it, the less confident I am that the 222s will solve any of the current problems, with the possible exception of reliability.

They're not even 'confirmed' as the actual replacements yet and they're already being written off.

 

[PG]

They're not even 'confirmed' as the actual replacements yet and they're already being written off.

Guilty as charged
We can but hope that those in charge take note of the whole HST fiasco so they don't let (recent) history repeat itself!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Guilty as charged
We can but hope that those in charge take note of the whole HST fiasco so they don't let (recent) history repeat itself!

I’m confident the 222’s are the answer. In an ideal world new bi-mode stock would be sourced, but I think this is by far the next best option.

Are the 222’s going to be perfect if these are what is chosen? No. However, they solve the majority of the problems, reliability and set shortages being the most important one of those.

I guess the key point is you could go to an Inter7City service in the future and have way more confidence that a 222 would actually show up. As loved as the HST’s are, they’re way beyond too old now and the ex GWR sets were never exactly in the best condition when they got them.

When it comes to creating a spec for any potential refurbishment to the 222’s should they lease them, then some compromises are going to be needed. I just hope whatever happens, that we have a reliable and comfortable long distance network again. We haven’t had that in many years.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Inverness services out of Edinburgh are particularly notorious[...]

There's a perception among keyboard warriors (and arguably Scotrail management!) that the Inverness route is a minor line that's closer in characteristics to the Far North and West Highland than to the Aberdeen route. In reality it's just as busy, with a lot of tourist traffic and a belief among people in the Inverness area that the train is less stressful than the A9. It used to be perceived as more reliable, too, but these days the line is shut any time there's bad weather.

FWIW, the services from Inverness to Glasgow aren't much better, and suffer from being the less-favoured route. Edinburgh is better for the tourist market, but my experience is that most Highlanders would prefer to go to Glasgow.

The more I read about it, the less confident I am that the 222s will solve any of the current problems, with the possible exception of reliability.

Funnily enough, reliability is the number one problem that they're trying to solve. Number two is crashworthiness. Anything else is probably quite a long way down the list.

 

[Scotrail84]

There's a perception among keyboard warriors (and arguably Scotrail management!) that the Inverness route is a minor line that's closer in characteristics to the Far North and West Highland than to the Aberdeen route. In reality it's just as busy, with a lot of tourist traffic and a belief among people in the Inverness area that the train is less stressful than the A9. It used to be perceived as more reliable, too, but these days the line is shut any time there's bad weather.

FWIW, the services from Inverness to Glasgow aren't much better, and suffer from being the less-favoured route. Edinburgh is better for the tourist market, but my experience is that most Highlanders would prefer to go to Glasgow.

Funnily enough, reliability is the number one problem that they're trying to solve. Number two is crashworthiness. Anything else is probably quite a long way down the list.

It's very much a major route that would benefit from more services if it wasn't for the long single line sections. In the summer time, tourists, luggage, bikes are absolutely off the scale with services struggling to cope with the sheer volume of people, a 5 car HST fills up very quickly indeed. Whether 222s will help resolve these issues is the million dollar question. I don't think they will personally in terms of capacity but in terms of reliability they're bound to be 100 times more likely to turn up instead of a 158 subbed in for an HST thats failed on depot.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

How does that work when all the pointers are that there is already an agreement to lease a few sets elsewhere for one of the open access operations?

As far as I knew, the open access operators were now all looking at new stock. Some of them out of choice, but some of them to meet the requirements of the access agreement.

 

[Stathern Jc]

It really depends what ScotRail’s intentions are. They’d have to have at least 2 hosts onboard for an improved first class to have a chance of working. One for First Class and one for the trolley.

As Scotrail have already had HSTs with the mini-buffet for a few years now, I think we can guess what their intentions towards the onboard catering service are.

They will herald the new trains as having an at seat service.
Then, having ticked that box, sweep under the carpet (or lino, if that's what they get at a refurbishment) the fact that what can be offered from a trolley is totally inadequate for 5 or more carriages full of passengers, most of which will be on a journey of over 3 hours.

(Apologies if I sound pessimistic here)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I made a journey on the Highland Mainline in January on a Class 170* and found the trolley to be perfectly adequate for getting a cup of coffee, which is pretty much the only thing I tend to buy from on-train catering anyway. On shorter trains it usually does manage to get round often enough (one is insufficient on something like a 9-car IET of course). The coffee could have been better but wasn't terrible - the microgrind instants are pretty acceptable these days, and I particularly like the filter cups used by TransPennine Express and I think Ryanair.

* Which I found much nicer than the HST to be honest, particularly the massive windows and fully aligned seating layout for the beautiful scenery. You could sell these as panoramic units!

 

[Scotrail84]

As Scotrail have already had HSTs with the mini-buffet for a few years now, I think we can guess what their intentions towards the onboard catering service are.

They will herald the new trains as having an at seat service.
Then, having ticked that box, sweep under the carpet (or lino, if that's what they get at a refurbishment) the fact that what can be offered from a trolley is totally inadequate for 5 or more carriages full of passengers, most of which will be on a journey of over 3 hours.

(Apologies if I sound pessimistic here)

I'm fairly confident that the buffets on the 222s (if they replace the HSTs) with be utilised to their full potential as ScotRail do want to improve on board catering/hospitality. They recently advertised for on train hospitality staff at Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness and Wick. Forward planning it seems.

 

[Railperf]

Good find!

The requirement to maintain timings with one engine out of use (9.4) will effectively rule out HSTs, and definitely rules out loco+stock options.

That might rule out 80x in longer term too!

Be restricted to the same permitted speeds as the HSTs, but perhaps you meant faster journeys?


I'd expect them to be better in poor rail conditions because of more driven axles; interestingly though Eversholt's own data suggests the 222s are slightly slower to 100mph (About 160s in the performance chart) than the 2+4 short HSTs (~150s) but quicker than a 2+5 (~170s).

All dependent on how they are driven and the state of power units. But the 2+4's are longer than a 5-car 222 and have to wait longer to clear low speed restrictions - where a 222 can accelerate earlier. Also the 222 brakes are more responsive - being a unit, and the tech is a bit more modern with a working supply chain.
Scotrail's challenge will be to have a maintenance resource in place - something that appears to have been lacking wth the HST fleet.
But then again, were SR ever going to have the same financial resources to run these trains as the main line operators had before them? I'm imagining the annual maintenance budget per train was much higher when they were in front line service - most likely because the revenue generated by each train was equally significantly higher.

 

[Rick1984]

Convert the buffet to bike area, keep the kitchen and offer at seat warm food options. I think this is the best option on trains with limited capacity

 

[Clansman]

There's a perception among keyboard warriors (and arguably Scotrail management!) that the Inverness route is a minor line that's closer in characteristics to the Far North and West Highland than to the Aberdeen route. In reality it's just as busy, with a lot of tourist traffic and a belief among people in the Inverness area that the train is less stressful than the A9.

Agreed, I'd extend this notion to the entire I7C network too, but the perception seems tainted in my opinion by two trivial details which can throw some outsiders off - the TOC in question (and their reputation), and the stock used.

It's this 'peas and carrots mustn't touch on the plate' type mentality that sets people's perceptions on what is and what isn't, and the stubbornness in between that implies that things have to remain the same on this basis at all costs.

A classic case of never judge a book by its cover. Or in this case, never judge a route by its TOC.

 

[Bill57p9]

I take it that there isn’t a realistic option of the Euston to Stirling OA operation getting some alternative (preferably electric) stock, which would leave the whole 222 fleet available for I7C?

Obviously such tendering doesn’t consider the holistic “good“ however it seems a odd for the Stirling OA operation to use diesel under the wires when there are other uses for 222s and electric fleets (mk4 with either 90 or 91) out there.
(I will admit that I am not totally up to speed on the state of mk4s, 90s & 91s so may have just typed something daft)

 

[D365]

Obviously such tendering doesn’t consider the holistic “good“ however it seems a odd for the Stirling OA operation to use diesel under the wires when there are other uses for 222s and electric fleets (mk4 with either 90 or 91) out there.
(I will admit that I am not totally up to speed on the state of mk4s, 90s & 91s so may have just typed something daft)

Mk4 coaching stock - it’s never quite clear whether there are many/any vehicles going spare.

In the realms of speculation, there are 110mph AC electric multiple units seemingly going spare…

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I take it that there isn’t a realistic option of the Euston to Stirling OA operation getting some alternative (preferably electric) stock, which would leave the whole 222 fleet available for I7C?

Obviously such tendering doesn’t consider the holistic “good“ however it seems a odd for the Stirling OA operation to use diesel under the wires when there are other uses for 222s and electric fleets (mk4 with either 90 or 91) out there.
(I will admit that I am not totally up to speed on the state of mk4s, 90s & 91s so may have just typed something daft)

It’s especially bizarre as you say with the whole journey now being fully electrified. If it ends up being a Lumo brand, I suspect we will see more 803’s ordered which will allow for the 222’s to be fully taken by ScotRail. This is what I was alluding to in my earlier posts about Open Access seeking new stock.

 

[43096]

Mk4 coaching stock - it’s never quite clear whether there are many/any vehicles going spare.

There is no available Mark 4 stock currently. The fleet is split between LNER (leased from Eversholt) and TfW; the rest has been scrapped bar a small number of vehicles used for "internal user" purposes. If another operator wanted to use Mark 4s, they'd be waiting for LNER to off lease theirs.

 

[Pete_uk]

The 222s look nice in blue.

Image is of a AI 222 in scotrail livery

 

[Scotrail84]

The 222s look nice in blue.

Image is of a AI 222 in scotrail livery

They should paint them in the old push pull livery from the 80s/90s.

 

[D365]

The 222s look nice in blue.

Image is of a AI 222 in scotrail livery

Just don’t ask who the operator is!

 

[Scotrail84]

Rumours doing the rounds that theres a 222 in Kilmarnock already receiving mods in preparation for transfer to ScotRail. I don't believe a word of it though as it would have been posted on here before now and there'd have been pictures if it were true.

 

[PG]

Rumours doing the rounds that theres a 222 in Kilmarnock already receiving mods in preparation for transfer to ScotRail. I don't believe a word of it though as it would have been posted on here before now and there'd have been pictures if it were true.

See this post.

 

[InTheEastMids]

See this post.

Looking back at the contract info attached to the first post in the thread, tenders are not expected to be invited before 03/03/2025, so if they stick to that, closing date for tenders might be 31/03. Then Scotrail have to assess the tenders, take it through governance and approvals. So realistically I think contract award will be at the end of April for contract award, and maybe later depending on how many bids there are to assess (although I can't see who else would bid with something credible).

Could imagine one might travel to various sites for an engineering assessment, but it's a bit soon for them to be getting blue paint on them.

 

[Snow1964]

Looking back at the contract info attached to the first post in the thread, tenders are not expected to be invited before 03/03/2025, so if they stick to that, closing date for tenders might be 31/03. Then Scotrail have to assess the tenders, take it through governance and approvals. So realistically I think contract award will be at the end of April for contract award, and maybe later depending on how many bids there are to assess (although I can't see who else would bid with something credible).

Could imagine one might travel to various sites for an engineering assessment, but it's a bit soon for them to be getting blue paint on them.

The big unknown is how many interested open access operators are interested in part of the fleet. It could be something like, say, 16 are a available at £X, but next 5 are available at £Y (because someone else is interested and will pay £Y so need to match offer)

The longer the procurement goes on, the higher the possibility that more have been taken up by others, leaving fewer for Scotrail to potentially lease.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The big unknown is how many interested open access operators are interested in part of the fleet. It could be something like, say, 16 are a available at £X, but next 5 are available at £Y (because someone else is interested and will pay £Y so need to match offer)

The longer the procurement goes on, the higher the possibility that more have been taken up by others, leaving fewer for Scotrail to potentially lease.

There has to be very few (if any) open access operators that are interested in the 222’s. I see this suggestion come up a lot but there never seems to be any real logic to it.

Most of the FirstGroup ventures are to purchase new/additional AT300’s, though London to Stirling remains a mystery and I think with First having AT300’s everywhere else, that it’d be silly not to do the same. Grand Central also looking at new stock. Virgin you’d think would eye up the 221’s and indeed that has been suggested if it gets approval. Go-op will be after smaller DMU’s suited to their operations.

 

[JonathanH]

There has to be very few (if any) open access operators that are interested in the 222’s. I see this suggestion come up a lot but there never seems to be any real logic to it.

Most of the FirstGroup ventures are to purchase new/additional AT300’s, though London to Stirling remains a mystery

Very clear that 222s were desired for the Stirling service - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ght-by-first-group.274348/page-6#post-7067391