Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[jon0844]

I've never had any problems either, bar the Finsbury Park station manager who took exception to me taking photos of the new gateline in front of his big bosses from FCC (there to check more important things, like the safety procedures, staff training and risk assessments etc).

Sadly for him, they all ignored our little 'incident' and while this may sound cocky, he ended up walking away and allowing me to board my next train as normal. He never did explain how a photo of the gates, as well as the painted 'no waiting here' bit of the platform, was dangerous as part of the heightened state of security. Sadly, I never asked him to detail this, in case I was in fact at risk of something bad happening by being on the station!!

I was going to take the p**s a bit and sign in every morning when changing to my Moorgate train, but figured that while it might be amusing, it would make me look stupid and also take up too much of my time!

 

[Statto]

I'm not at station's long enough to take pics, or i'm on the Merseyrail network which only have 507 or 508s running all day, however when i'm at stations & something interesting is approaching, i use the camera on my Phone rather than any other type of cameras, cuts out a lot of the problems some enthusiasts are having, i can also say i'm reading a text or online.

 

[bAzTNM]

Had a bit of a problem taking a quick photo at Craigendoran Station in Scotland on Friday. Some guy came out his car, which was parked right next to the walk bridge, and said I was taking a picture of his registration plate. I showed him what I took (a picture of the railway walk bridge). He hummed and hawed. Scuttled back in his motor and eventually scurried away. Potential road rage case there.

 

[jon0844]

And what business was it of his if you took a photo that had his registration? I guess he probably shouldn't have been there!

 

[GB]

Perhaps the chap was worried about potential number plate cloning?

 

[jon0844]

Why take a photo? Just write down the plate on a bit of paper, ideally finding one on the same type of car you intend to use it on.

 

[GB]

A photo on a mobile phone is just as good, if not better, than scribbling it down on a piece of paper...assuming you have pen and paper to hand in the first place.

ideally finding one on the same type of car you intend to use it on.

Well yes. This is the whole point of number plate cloning and why the person may have misread the situation. For all he knows is it was his type of car someone is looking for.

 

[jon0844]

My point was that taking a photo, writing it on the back of your hand, or simply remembering it, is all going to be suitable for someone out to clone a plate.

To be honest, it's easier just to drive around estates and do the same thing - as long as the car isn't incredibly rare!

Now, cloning was a BIG problem (and it's still a doddle to get plates made up without having to show registration documents) but now I believe that as soon as there has been a reported incident/claim of a cloned plate - they mark that plate so the next time it is picked up by ANPR anywhere - the driver can expect to be pulled (and this obviously means the genuine owner might too).

So, it becomes a little more risky to clone a plate than it did. Or does it? As in there are far less traffic cars in comparison to 10-15 years ago, and they're now expected to do 'normal' police duties too - even though I'd say there's more than enough crime to warrant traffic cars doing nothing but patrolling on the roads..!

In any case, even if you were out to clone the plate, the driver still can't stop you taking a photo!

 

[bAzTNM]

I believe he must have thought I was taking his number plate to report him parked at a rather strange angle at the entrance of the walkway bridge. I had to squeeze past it.

 

[jon0844]

He could have thought whatever he liked, but you are free to take photos of him, his car and everyone inside the car if you are outdoors in a public space.

Now, what he might have done is unknown - but you still had the right. I hope to God that we never lose that right, as while you can argue for him being given some privacy - if you allowed the introduction of a rule to stop taking photos that might include someone who takes objection, you'll never be able to take photos of anything.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Now, cloning was a BIG problem (and it's still a doddle to get plates made up without having to show registration documents) but now I believe that as soon as there has been a reported incident/claim of a cloned plate - they mark that plate so the next time it is picked up by ANPR anywhere - the driver can expect to be pulled (and this obviously means the genuine owner might too).

So, it becomes a little more risky to clone a plate than it did. Or does it? As in there are far less traffic cars in comparison to 10-15 years ago, and they're now expected to do 'normal' police duties too - even though I'd say there's more than enough crime to warrant traffic cars doing nothing but patrolling on the roads..!

Much more risky, I would say, considering that there are a huge number of fixed ANPR cameras being installed - virtually every motorway gantry has ANPR cameras ( in addition to the speed cameras, sorry I mean licence Daleks ) and as most of the bridges on the London end of the A3 do as well, at least as far out as Guildford, I'd guess most trunk roads have such coverage now.

Anyway, getting back to the photography on stations...

 

[jon0844]

Yes there are plenty of ANPR cameras, but unless it's one on a police car that will then pull you it's not a great deal of use. So they see a car that is flagged - they still need to act.

They started with these cameras on roads like the A1 Holloway Road, and other major trunk routes to target people coming in via the tunnel and ferries, and obviously they've expanded them, but you do need to be stopped - not just observed.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

however when i'm at stations & something interesting is approaching, i use the camera on my Phone rather than any other type of cameras, cuts out a lot of the problems some enthusiasts are having, i can also say i'm reading a text or online.

It does annoy me that railfans with very obvious SLR cameras seem to be any easy target, yet anyone wanting to be subtle could, as you say, easily take photographs with their mobile phone. Perhaps these jobsworth station staff should start banning mobiles from their platforms too....

On that topic, has anyone ever explained why taking photos is considered a security risk? Were any train photos ever found on the computers of the London or Madrid bombers? It was certainly never mentioned in any media coverage. I can't imagine having a series of photos of tube stock would in any way have helped them to plan an attack like they carried out.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know why a terrorist would need photos of stations (like platforms, rolling stock or gatelines) to plant a bomb or blow themselves up. Yet it seems some staff are convinced that to be the case.

I got grief for taking a photo with a phone, quite openly (hence being spotted) so I guess I failed miserably at being a terrorist... or the staff member was some ace-detective that had me sussed right from the outset.

 

[sjdavison28]

Well it happend again this time at London Fenchurch Street Station. I had just walked onto the platform to board a train and because I had a few minutes to spare decided to take a picture of a unit on another platform. After taking the picture and walking towards my train a member of staff asked me if I had signed in. I said "No, I've just walked onto the station to board a train." I then showed him my railway staff passes and explained I was a conductor on the railway, he then rather sheepishly said it's just because of security, I said "I don't think I pose a security threat do you?" He said "No not really, sorry" I wouldn't care the picutre was rubbish as well since that station is poorly lit and I won't use a flash as it is distracting to drivers.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, but you could be doing some private work for Al-Qaeda as I happen to know they desperately need poor quality photos of trains, so their 'operatives' will know what they look like when they attack.

I believe they also need photos of street furniture, landscapes, photos of friends, indoor shots in pubs and other things that to anyone else may seem pointless. That staff member was wise beyond his years and hopefully reported it all back to MI5 who now have you on their watch list.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I've never had any problems either, bar the Finsbury Park station manager who took exception to me taking photos of the new gateline in front of his big bosses from FCC (there to check more important things, like the safety procedures, staff training and risk assessments etc).

Sadly for him, they all ignored our little 'incident' and while this may sound cocky, he ended up walking away and allowing me to board my next train as normal. He never did explain how a photo of the gates, as well as the painted 'no waiting here' bit of the platform, was dangerous as part of the heightened state of security. Sadly, I never asked him to detail this, in case I was in fact at risk of something bad happening by being on the station!!

I was going to take the p**s a bit and sign in every morning when changing to my Moorgate train, but figured that while it might be amusing, it would make me look stupid and also take up too much of my time!

Don't get me started on FCC!

I went to Finsbury a couple of weeks back to do some spotting, at least a couple of hours passed after I had arrived there initally, someone was standing right behind me and then got my attention, telling me to take down my tripod, which was a good six to ten feet away from the yellow line! I did inform him and show him the exact position but he said, he was the manager of that station, his rules go and because of the wind current of passing trains, I had to take it down!

Not wanting to argue with said person, I did it but he kept on arguing and, at one point, a police officer was coming over and was taking an interest in what was being said before the rather 'obnoxious' manager, in my opinion, walked off with the police officer.

So I continue without the tripod until, half an hour later, another person, of a different gender to the first person, came into the little building behind him and asked what I was doing. I turned around and informed her I was trainspotting and she told me that I wasn't allowed to take photos of their station because of a security risk. I asked what risk and she didn't say anything to which I then told her, in no uncertain terms, that someone had already been up, told me to take down my tripod and said nothing about no security risk. I also informed the person that I had been spotting at that station before and no one had said something before ending with the fact that I wouldn't be going back to that station if that was going to be staff attitudes to which she just walked inside, slamming the door behind her.

Not the first problem I had with FCC that day. Went to East Croydon later that afternoon and I had been told, by my brothers who had gone there earlier in the year that if I was going as a party of spotters, I was to sign in but I didn't have to if I was going on my own. I asked them again the day before to confirm and they repeated it for me.

So I go down, spend my time there and was all but finished, just packing up when a person comes over. Said person worked with Southern and we were talking, talking about what I was doing and then they drops the bomb; I should have signed in. I kept it friendly with said person and informed him about what my brother said and he said that that was right but they had to change their rules because the other TOC that used that station was moaning about trainspotters taking photos and videos of their trains. Take a wild guess who!

Anyway, short story, unless it is a Network Rail owned station or a station owned by another TOC, don't go to a FCC owned station!

 

[jon0844]

It is odd that FCC now seems anti enthusiast, given the fact they have posters to say they welcome them.

I do think some staff simply get off on ordering people about. If you stand up to them, isn't it funny how they end with some sarcy remark and then walk off to leave you be? If there was a security risk, you would be gone.

Perhaps Finsbury Park has more angry staff since the new gates went in. They are having lots of problems resulting in the police getting involved, so perhaps the staff in general are taking this frustration out on you? They do get lots of abuse (swearing and threatening) but it is no excuse.

 

[HST Power]

Anyway, short story, unless it is a Network Rail owned station or a station owned by another TOC, don't go to a FCC owned station!

It's much more easier, friendlier and less stressful to spot Eddie Stobarts, believe me!

 

[bAzTNM]

I've never quite got why taking a video, or a picture, of a train moving away in the distance would be a security risk. I'm sure they make this stuff up as they go along.

Some company websites have timetables of when trains arrive at a particular station. I'd consider that a bigger security risk that taking a picture of a passing train.

 

[43167]

Don't get me started on FCC!

I went to Finsbury a couple of weeks back to do some spotting, at least a couple of hours passed after I had arrived there initally, someone was standing right behind me and then got my attention, telling me to take down my tripod, which was a good six to ten feet away from the yellow line! I did inform him and show him the exact position but he said, he was the manager of that station, his rules go and because of the wind current of passing trains, I had to take it down!

Not wanting to argue with said person, I did it but he kept on arguing and, at one point, a police officer was coming over and was taking an interest in what was being said before the rather 'obnoxious' manager, in my opinion, walked off with the police officer.

So I continue without the tripod until, half an hour later, another person, of a different gender to the first person, came into the little building behind him and asked what I was doing. I turned around and informed her I was trainspotting and she told me that I wasn't allowed to take photos of their station because of a security risk. I asked what risk and she didn't say anything to which I then told her, in no uncertain terms, that someone had already been up, told me to take down my tripod and said nothing about no security risk. I also informed the person that I had been spotting at that station before and no one had said something before ending with the fact that I wouldn't be going back to that station if that was going to be staff attitudes to which she just walked inside, slamming the door behind her.

Not the first problem I had with FCC that day. Went to East Croydon later that afternoon and I had been told, by my brothers who had gone there earlier in the year that if I was going as a party of spotters, I was to sign in but I didn't have to if I was going on my own. I asked them again the day before to confirm and they repeated it for me.

So I go down, spend my time there and was all but finished, just packing up when a person comes over. Said person worked with Southern and we were talking, talking about what I was doing and then they drops the bomb; I should have signed in. I kept it friendly with said person and informed him about what my brother said and he said that that was right but they had to change their rules because the other TOC that used that station was moaning about trainspotters taking photos and videos of their trains. Take a wild guess who!

Anyway, short story, unless it is a Network Rail owned station or a station owned by another TOC, don't go to a FCC owned station!

I thought the TOC's didnt actually own stations, but just managed them on behalf of Network Rail?.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I thought the TOC's didnt actually own stations, but just managed them on behalf of Network Rail?.

Correct.

 

[43167]

Correct.

Thought so, thanks.

I wonder if the staff that challenge enthusiasts taking photos ever think about this?. They are not just an enthusiast, they are also a fare-paying passenger/customer who is paying part of the staffs wage.

 

[Aldaniti]

Here's a link to National Rail's station plan of Finsbury Park. Hover your mouse over various parts of the platform to see details and photographs of most of the station - and just how stupid some of the TOC's and their employees can be:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/FPK/plan.html?rtnloc=FPK

 

[jon0844]

The station layout is going to change a lot over the coming months, so they'll need to go back out with a camera soon. I hope they don't get in trouble.

I would love to know the 'risks' posed by an ordinary fare-paying commuter that takes the odd photo with his camera phone while waiting for a train. I've never used an SLR, a tripod or gone to a station for the sole purpose of taking photos of trains/stations.

Now, if I am a security risk by taking a photo then I must be one hell of a risk by being allowed to board a train! I wonder if the same station managers would seek to stop me getting a train?!

 

[moonrakerz]

The basic problem is that most of the "staff" who quote "Security/Health & Safety/Data Protection Act/etc/etc" don't have a clue about any of them. They are put in something resembling a uniform and immediately think they know everything and therefore have total power over these pesky "customers". This is not helped by the multiple layers of management above them being equally clueless.

This does not apply only to the railways but - everywhere.........

Two examples:
1. The recent banning of tennis fans from Murray Mount at Wimbledon for "Health & Safety" reasons (the grass was wet !!). This caused a senior executive in the Health & Safety Executive to write to the national press saying that this reason was rubbish. If the Wimbledon authorities were afraid of being sued if someone slipped on the wet grass then the reason was "Insurance" NOT H & S.
2. All those stupid announcements about not leaving luggage unattended on the trains/stations.
I recently found a TOC website (forgotten which one) which repeated this inane mantra - the very next sentence told you to put your luggage on the luggage racks at the end of the coach (the overhead ones are not safe for luggage because of .............you have one guess !!!!) - presume you then have to stand by the rack for the whole journey

The more railway enthusiasts, and the like, who challenge these morons, the better !

 

[jon0844]

If I the station manager at Finsbury Park ever dares say anything to me about taking a picture with a cameraphone for the few minutes between a KGX and MOG train again, I will take great pleasure in pointing out that he clearly isn't that bothered about the 'heightened security' given the fact his staff let a train continue into King's Cross after a passenger was going off about how a lady clutching a rucksack was praying over and over and could have been a suicide bomber.

The story made the local press after I tweeted FCC (the paper picked up on this, I didn't go to them), and I have been told FPK staff will now be interviewed to establish if they could have done things any different (i.e. hold the train and get BTP to attend there, not let the train continue on).

Two members of staff DID board the train to look for her, but didn't see her and insisted she must have got off - the passenger who reported her to staff insisted she couldn't have left as she was behind him on the train (and the gates were in operation).

The staff then seemed very confused. You had a number of them communicating via radio to hold the passenger who made the report to get more information, while the dispatchers then dispatched the train and let it continue on. I really wasn't convinced that should have been allowed to happen!

BTP successfully located her at King's Cross so she was in fact still on the train after all. As was expected, and hoped for by all concerned, it was a false alarm - but who the hell allows a train to proceed when someone has suggested there might be a suicide bomber on it? Even if he turned out to be crazy, or saying it out of spite (perhaps an argument on the train over a seat or something), you surely check it out?

What FCC did just made me think of what would be said in any inquest, where it was on record that they'd been made aware of a serious situation and potentially made things worse. Meanwhile, the station manager could be out looking for someone with a camera taking a picture of a passing HST..

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/commu...alert_on_first_capital_connect_train_1_928312

 

[Snapper]

Don't get me started on FCC!

I went to Finsbury a couple of weeks back to do some spotting

I've edited the rest of the post but I just wanted to say that I hope that you've written to FCC to complain?

 

[HST Power]

II hope that you've written to FCC to complain?

Don't bother! It's a total waste of time. You'd be better off trying to get blood from a stone.

 

[jon0844]

No, you would probably get an apology and assurances that they are enthusiast friendly and then get grief yet again the next time.

They (revenue officers at FPK) were taking the p$#s out of training spotters on the day a steam engine came through so I think they just like showing their power. Stand up to them and they walk away.

If they really had a point or the power, they wouldn't be so quick to go!

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