Todmorden Curve

[MidnightFlyer]

They can also become the most annoying forum members

Despite all this I can't help but feel that everything is getting a bit out of hand. I will happily put money on the only development being the Toddy Curve reopening, and an hourly 150 service from Blackburn, calling at Accrington, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Rd and then all stations to Rochdale, then Manchester Victoria.

 

[Nym]

Would speed up t'other services to Leeds though, if the stopper was sent that way and then the Leeds - Manchester Victoria via Dewsbury and Brighouse sped up and set off behind the stopper till Todmorden, then picking up it's old path.

(Similar to what they did with the Cleethorpes TPE services on the Styal Branch)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could anyone see station reopenings between Burnley Manchester Road and Todmorden? I remember that Portsmouth (strange name for somewhere miles from the sea) once had a station on this line.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There were stations at Thorneybank (1866), Towneley (1952), Holme (1930), Portsmouth (1958), Cornholme (1938) and Stansfield Hall (last train 1944, closed 1949) - closure dates are in brackets. Of these, I think Portmouth is the only one that could warrant a station, maybe Towneley too, but I doubt it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks for this information. I travelled on the Burnley to Halifax bus recently and this is why I only mentioned Portsmouth as a station stop.

I suppose that this station when operational would have the name of the station clarified on the rail tickets with either the rail region or the name of the county.

 

[Sox]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9108250.Cornholme_villagers_bid_for_new_rail_station/

Cornholme villagers bid for new rail station

4:43pm Monday 27th June 2011

A CAMPAIGN has been launched by villagers to open a new railway station halfway between Burnley and Todmorden.

And if the new halt at Cornholme and Portsmouth becomes a reality, the journey time to Manchester for commuters could be as little as 40 minutes.

More than 120 people in the neighbouring communities have so far expressed an interest in the bid for the station, which would be on the Caldervale line between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.

Campaign spokesman Rachel Julian said: “It all started around the discussions to reopen the Todmorden Curve.

“If they are going to restore the curve then this would have clear advantages for people living in this area.”

Questionnaires have been drawn up and have been handed out via Cornholme School, the post office in Burnley Road and nearby general store.

Originally, each of the two villages had its own station, both constructed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railways company and opened in 1849.

But the Cornholme stop was closed in September 1938 and the Portsmouth station only lasted until July 1958.

The station would be accessible for people living in Cliviger and Worsthorne.

Under the West Yorkshire regional railway plan, a station for the area is listed as an aim.

 

[lancastrian]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9108250.Cornholme_villagers_bid_for_new_rail_station/

Cornholme villagers bid for new rail station

4:43pm Monday 27th June 2011

A CAMPAIGN has been launched by villagers to open a new railway station halfway between Burnley and Todmorden.

And if the new halt at Cornholme and Portsmouth becomes a reality, the journey time to Manchester for commuters could be as little as 40 minutes.

More than 120 people in the neighbouring communities have so far expressed an interest in the bid for the station, which would be on the Caldervale line between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.

Campaign spokesman Rachel Julian said: “It all started around the discussions to reopen the Todmorden Curve.

“If they are going to restore the curve then this would have clear advantages for people living in this area.”

Questionnaires have been drawn up and have been handed out via Cornholme School, the post office in Burnley Road and nearby general store.

Originally, each of the two villages had its own station, both constructed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railways company and opened in 1849.

But the Cornholme stop was closed in September 1938 and the Portsmouth station only lasted until July 1958.

The station would be accessible for people living in Cliviger and Worsthorne.

Under the West Yorkshire regional railway plan, a station for the area is listed as an aim.

It would be great if Lancs CC included the cost of this new station in with the rebuilding pof the Todmorden curve. However I certainly agree with a comment on the News Paper article. How come the cost of building new stations is so high. They state that in the 1980's West Yorks Council were building stations at a cost of around £250,000, now they seem to cost in access of £4/5 million. What are they building them out of, Gold Plated steel??? They need to have a basic station plan, with prefabricated sections to be able to build a cheap but effective station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be great if Lancs CC included the cost of this new station in with the rebuilding pof the Todmorden curve. However I certainly agree with a comment on the News Paper article. How come the cost of building new stations is so high. They state that in the 1980's West Yorks Council were building stations at a cost of around £250,000, now they seem to cost in access of £4/5 million. What are they building them out of, Gold Plated steel??? They need to have a basic station plan, with prefabricated sections to be able to build a cheap but effective station.

If Lancashire County Council state that this chord reinstatement is their main rail transport aspiration and the West Yorkshire regional railway plan shows this as an aim, the most logical thing to do would be to set up a joint committee (from bodies on both sides of the Pennines) with joint financial remit which could take the financial burden off one particular body.

 

[Sox]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9118171.__9m_bid_submitted_for_Burnley_to_Manchester_direct_rail_link/

£9m bid submitted for Burnley to Manchester direct rail link

9:10am Saturday 2nd July 2011

By Chris Hopper »
Reporter

AN AMBITIOUS £9million bid has been lodged to finally provide a direct rail link between Burnley and Manchester.

Council bosses want cash from the Government’s regional growth fund (RGF) to reinstate the Todmorden Curve after 40 years.

The line would mean 40-minute journeys from Burnley into the heart of the city.

Bosses also plan to use almost £2million of the money to help prepare for the long-awaited £100million regeneration of the Weavers’ Triangle area.

And separately, a renovation of Manchester Road station, which would be used by Manchester-bound commuters, is also in the pipeline. The RGF proposals, lodged yesterday with the Government, have been hailed as the biggest development yet in the long-running campaign to reinstate the Todmorden Curve, a 500-metre section of track that would be brought back into use.

The plans, which could see Burnley to Manchester trains running in 2013, were also backed by MP Gordon Birtwistle.

He said: “This is a very clever bid because it links the Todmorden Curve and the Weavers’ Triangle to job creation, which is what the Government is looking for.

“I speak to companies all the time who say they would move to Burnley if there was a direct rail link to Manchester.

“I think in two years’ time we will see that finally happen.”

Burnley Council has led the bid, which also has support from Lancashire County Council, Network Rail and newly-appointed Weavers’ Triangle developer Barnfield.

Bosses have asked for £8.8million, of which £7million would be used to lay down new track where the curve is and make alterations at Todmorden railway station, including changes to signalling.

The remaining £1.8million would go on highways improvements in Trafalgar Street, in the heart of the Weavers’ Triangle, and on new lighting and landscaping nearby.

The bid predicts about 500 jobs would be created by the rail work and Weavers’ Triangle improvements, with potentially hundreds more people heading into Manchester from Burnley for better-paid jobs.

Mike Cook, Burnley Council’s regeneration director, said: “This is a proper bid. It is certainly the biggest development there has been as far as the Todmorden Curve goes.”

Mr Cook would not be drawn on the odds of Burnley’s bid securing almost £9million of the £950million the Government has made available in the second round of RGF bidding.

However, a senior source said the town hall was ‘optimistic’ of success.

Separately, the council also plans an overhaul of Manchester Road station before 2013, with a new ticket office, platform shelters and increased car parking.

Network Rail said it was ‘advising’ Burnley and Lancashire County councils on the Todmorden Curve and that it was a ‘priority’ scheme.

Spokesman Keith Lumley said it was hoped the Burnley to Manchester route would be on the timetables by December 2013, with engineering work taking place the previous summer.

He said: “It seems to be getting there. If the council secures the funding from the Government then the Todmorden Curve is a goer.”

A Lancashire County Council spokesman said the Todmorden Curve remained its ‘top priority’ rail scheme and Northern Rail said it was fully supportive of the scheme.

Barnfield said were unavailable for comment yesterday ((FRI)).

A spokeswoman in the Government’s business department said RGF bidders would probably find out in October if their application for cash had been approved.

Asked about the Burnley scheme’s chances of success, she said: “There’s a larger amount of money available in this round than last time.”

Barnfield is expected to begin work on the Weavers’ Triangle later this year with a ‘mixed-use’ development planned.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A £9million bid has been lodged to finally provide a direct rail link between Burnley and Manchester. Council bosses want cash from the Government’s regional growth fund (RGF) to reinstate the Todmorden Curve after 40 years. Mike Cook, Burnley Council’s regeneration director, said: “This is a proper bid. It is certainly the biggest development there has been as far as the Todmorden Curve goes.” Mr Cook would not be drawn on the odds of Burnley’s bid securing almost £9million of the £950million the Government has made available in the second round of RGF bidding.

A spokeswoman in the Government’s business department said RGF bidders would probably find out in October if their application for cash had been approved. Asked about the Burnley scheme’s chances of success, she said: “There’s a larger amount of money available in this round than last time.”

The response from the Government spokeswoman was only to be expected as this is a bidding process and their staff have to be very non-committal with answers to generalised questions. Burnley will just have to wait until the bidding process is completed and the final decision is made in October 2011.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

It shouldn't be overlooked however, that Burnley is now a marginal constiuency, with the Lib Dems snatching it from Labour (who held it for 80 years) with a narrow majority.

It would just so happen that the line would be either re-opened or imminantly due to open at the time of the next general election, giving a massive local boost to the Lib Dems who's MP would be in every photo and cutting every ribbon.

Now, I couldn't possibly suggest that marginal constiuencies benefit from investment to a greater extent than safe ones, I'm sure each sheme will be judged purely on it's own merits....

 

[cle]

Well as long as a ribbon is cut, as a railway proponent it's fine with me. They've done something to merit re-election!

What I hate is the announcing of schemes to get elected, and then not following through - sadly a lot more common...

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Indeed, but my point is Central Government are more likely to look favourably on investment schemes in marginal constituencies, which is good news for the Todmorden Curve!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, but my point is Central Government are more likely to look favourably on investment schemes in marginal constituencies, which is good news for the Todmorden Curve!

This is all well and good but everyone will just have to wait for three more months until October 2011 when according to the spokes(person)'s statement..... "that the RGF bidders will know if their application for cash has been accepted".

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

It was just an observation, I'm not claiming it's a done deal, just saying there is a better chance than if it was a safe seat.

 

[4SRKT]

Is it really such a massive problem running frequent services over single track? People are saying it would be 'tough' to run a circular service because of pathing difficulties between Bolton and Blackburn. AFAIAA there is a loop at Darwen and a double track section somewhere. In the rush hours Northern Ireland Railways operates a very frequent service to Larne over a single track section from Kilroot, slightly over 12 miles in length with two loops at Whitehead and Magheramorne. It was actually double track to Whitehead until a few years ago, but an extra 3 or so miles were singled along the coastal section. Trains leave Belfast Central for Larne at 16:12, 16:42, 17:16, 17:35, 17:43 and 18:12, plus short workings to Whitehead at 15:42 and 17:18. Southbound they leave Larne Town at 15:45, 16:33, 17:15, 17:43, 18:21 and 18:45, plus shorts from Whitehead at 16:32 and 18:25. This happens day in day out with some of the most unreliable trains in the known world!

 

[cle]

Would this curve be single track?

If so, I imagine a maximum of 2tph each way - so 4tph to use the curve. That's quite possible, on such a short curve. Maybe a terminating solution needs to be developed at Burnley.

Does it have any freight merit, and if so might freight use the curve too?

 

[PhilipW]

... and a price tag of £8 million for 500 yards of track ?

What on earth is going on ?

 

[4SRKT]

Would this curve be single track?

If so, I imagine a maximum of 2tph each way - so 4tph to use the curve. That's quite possible, on such a short curve. Maybe a terminating solution needs to be developed at Burnley.

Does it have any freight merit, and if so might freight use the curve too?

It's quite possible on much longer lengths than that. Take Exmouth for example, or my Larne example above. What I was really referring to was not the Tod curve, but all the sharp intakes of breath, shaken heads and stroked chins about the idea that it would be difficult to operate more than 1 tph in each direction between Bolton and Blackburn. Clearly this is bollocks, non?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Who said it was difficult to run more than 1tph???

There is already a half hourly service in the peak hours from Blackburn to Manchester. However, rather than making sweeping generalisations about how NI railways can run such a good service, let's examine the problems.

First, the headway from Darwen to Bromley Cross is 13 minutes. That gives 2 minutes recovery time per train in times of disruption. Therefore a train 3 minutes late or more will delay the next service on to the single line. At the moment, this is largely workable because the service that currently terminates at either Blackburn or Clitheroe has a decent amount of turn around time. If a train to Clitheroe is desperately late, it is terminated short at Blackburn. With a circular service this is not really possible. Therefore the train will run late, sometimes very late all the way to Rochdale/Manchester, with no way of terminating short in order to get the crew and stock back to where they should be.

Next consider the operating problems. A track circuit fails on the single line and a pilotman has to be called. The whole circular diagram will be thrown in to chaos, with no easy way of recovering the service without a serious amount of disruption for passengers. Crew and stock will be in the wrong place.

So, the point is not that it's difficult to run more than 2tph over a single line, it's the fact that it is circular. This is the exact reason why Transport for London have modified the Circle line - it is difficult to recover the service when things go wrong. A long single line section on a circular service is asking for trouble. Northern tried to run once daily (and return) service from Colne to Manchester. It was pulled after a year, one because it wasn't desperatly popular, and two, if it missed it's path on the single line then diagrams fell apart.

 

[4SRKT]

Who said it was difficult to run more than 1tph???

There is already a half hourly service in the peak hours from Blackburn to Manchester. However, rather than making sweeping generalisations about how NI railways can run such a good service, let's examine the problems.

First, the headway from Darwen to Bromley Cross is 13 minutes. That gives 2 minutes recovery time per train in times of disruption. Therefore a train 3 minutes late or more will delay the next service on to the single line. At the moment, this is largely workable because the service that currently terminates at either Blackburn or Clitheroe has a decent amount of turn around time. If a train to Clitheroe is desperately late, it is terminated short at Blackburn. With a circular service this is not really possible. Therefore the train will run late, sometimes very late all the way to Rochdale/Manchester, with no way of terminating short in order to get the crew and stock back to where they should be.

Next consider the operating problems. A track circuit fails on the single line and a pilotman has to be called. The whole circular diagram will be thrown in to chaos, with no easy way of recovering the service without a serious amount of disruption for passengers. Crew and stock will be in the wrong place.

So, the point is not that it's difficult to run more than 2tph over a single line, it's the fact that it is circular. This is the exact reason why Transport for London have modified the Circle line - it is difficult to recover the service when things go wrong. A long single line section on a circular service is asking for trouble. Northern tried to run once daily (and return) service from Colne to Manchester. It was pulled after a year, one because it wasn't desperatly popular, and two, if it missed it's path on the single line then diagrams fell apart.

Not really a 'sweeping generalisation' to point out that NIR can operate up to 20 minute frequencies on a single line with headways close to 10 minutes between loops. Still, as for the circle argument, nobody in his right mind would operate Manchester > Burnley > Blackburn > Manchester as a genuine circle, but as a Manchester > Manchester train with layovers at Victoria for recovery time. This is exactly what you describe in your Circle Line example used to show why I am 'wrong', and also used on the Cathcart circle, Fife circle, Waterloo > Richmond > Kingston > Waterloo, Wirral loop and others. As long as there is a layover it doesn't matter that the origin and destination of the service are the same place.

 

[The Planner]

... and a price tag of £8 million for 500 yards of track ?

What on earth is going on ?

It isnt the track that costs, it is the signalling. There are three new signals, one movement of a signal and alterations to others. Messing about with interlocking isnt cheap.

 

[Hydro]

. Messing about with interlocking isnt cheap.

Which is why you see signals in undergrowth showing a red aspect to a long non-existant and lifted branch line. I went down to Sandbach yesterday and a demolished factory, with a long lifted rail connection, still had a signal protecting where the points used to be in the trees, showing danger to a squirrel.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Not really a 'sweeping generalisation' to point out that NIR can operate up to 20 minute frequencies on a single line with headways close to 10 minutes between loops. Still, as for the circle argument, nobody in his right mind would operate Manchester > Burnley > Blackburn > Manchester as a genuine circle, but as a Manchester > Manchester train with layovers at Victoria for recovery time. This is exactly what you describe in your Circle Line example used to show why I am 'wrong', and also used on the Cathcart circle, Fife circle, Waterloo > Richmond > Kingston > Waterloo, Wirral loop and others. As long as there is a layover it doesn't matter that the origin and destination of the service are the same place.

Trust me, it just not that simple. The infrastructure on the Darwen line just isn't robust and reliable enough to run a circle service, and nor is there enough margine for delays between the longest two points, Bromley Cross and Darwen. Believe me I see just what problems it causes on a daily basis. The circle argument is important because in the event of delays you can't recover the service easy enough. A "long layover" at Victoria only occurs ever 2 hours, and you're neglecting to consider how long it will take for the single line to get back to normal. At the moment, just one late train in the 4tph period can leave the single line with residual delays until it reverts to an 2tph. Currently, there is a layover every 50 minutes for a Blackburn terminator and an hour and 10 minutes ish for a Clitheroe terminator.

For example, a points failure at Hall Royd Jn delays the train by 20 minutes heading anti clockwise. It is therefore late for single line to Darwen leaving a train stuck at Darwen waiting for it to come through. It's then late to Bromley Cross leaving a train waiting at Bromley Cross. That's two trains it's delayed already, before it's even got to Bolton. So three trains are missing their PPM. Oh and the crew is needed at Victoria to work another service, so that's FOUR trains delayed.

As I said, currently trains will be terminated short at Blackburn if the single line will be shagged if it went through to Clitheroe.

The circle services you mention do not have 3 long single line sections, so should an anti clockwise train get delayed it would not delay clockwise trains, whereas this idea would.

If the service was to happen it will terminate at Blackburn, it won't be a circular service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is why you see signals in undergrowth showing a red aspect to a long non-existant and lifted branch line. I went down to Sandbach yesterday and a demolished factory, with a long lifted rail connection, still had a signal protecting where the points used to be in the trees, showing danger to a squirrel.

Uh-huh. Quite often S & T request to change relays on points that have long since been removed, but they have to change the relay because it still forms part of the of the interlocking.

The good news is that the interlocking is in place at one end, for the Stansfield Hall turn back, but of course it will be needed at the Todmorden end. Costs for rail projects are always massively over what they should be, often due to the restrictive nature of having to plan possesions with PICOPS and the the like, and I presume they have to compensate the operator?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would this curve be single track

Does it have any freight merit, and if so might freight use the curve too?

I cannot remember where I saw it, but I had seen something about the plans for this project to be for a single track section only, but running further backwards in its turnout position than originally envisaged.

Could there be anyone on the forum who also saw this?

 

[4SRKT]

Trust me, it just not that simple. The infrastructure on the Darwen line just isn't robust and reliable enough to run a circle service, and nor is there enough margine for delays between the longest two points, Bromley Cross and Darwen. Believe me I see just what problems it causes on a daily basis. The circle argument is important because in the event of delays you can't recover the service easy enough. A "long layover" at Victoria only occurs ever 2 hours, and you're neglecting to consider how long it will take for the single line to get back to normal. At the moment, just one late train in the 4tph period can leave the single line with residual delays until it reverts to an 2tph. Currently, there is a layover every 50 minutes for a Blackburn terminator and an hour and 10 minutes ish for a Clitheroe terminator.

For example, a points failure at Hall Royd Jn delays the train by 20 minutes heading anti clockwise. It is therefore late for single line to Darwen leaving a train stuck at Darwen waiting for it to come through. It's then late to Bromley Cross leaving a train waiting at Bromley Cross. That's two trains it's delayed already, before it's even got to Bolton. So three trains are missing their PPM. Oh and the crew is needed at Victoria to work another service, so that's FOUR trains delayed.

As I said, currently trains will be terminated short at Blackburn if the single line will be shagged if it went through to Clitheroe.

The circle services you mention do not have 3 long single line sections, so should an anti clockwise train get delayed it would not delay clockwise trains, whereas this idea would.

If the service was to happen it will terminate at Blackburn, it won't be a circular service.

Aaargh! It *isn't* a circular service. Neither is the Cathcart Circle, Fife Circle, Circle line (any more) etc. It's just a service going from A to B where A and B happen to be the same place. If Blackburn to Manchester via Todmorden is X miles, then running Manchester > Blackburn > Burnley > Manchester is no different to running Manchester > Blackburn > some other place X miles beyond Blackburn in a straight line. The apparent circular nature of the service has nothing to do with it.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

It matters very much.

A service that starts and terminates in the same place, some would could it a circle, can't be terminated short to make it's back working on time.. Not being able to terminate short and keeping the single line in order will be disasterous for performance. Also, the chance of delays on a single line is high, and given the lack of recovery time take a long time to iron out.

In theory it would make sense. But in practice it just won't work. Unless perhaps I'm imagining what goes on the Darwen line? Besides, a circular service offers few benefits over a terminating service where passengers can simply change trains at Blackburn. Yes, it's slightly less convienent, but it will make the service a hell of a lot more robust. And Blackburn isn't exactly Birmingham New Street when it comes to connections...

 

[The Planner]

the plans for this project to be for a single track section only,

It is a single track curve only.

 

[WatcherZero]

Experience in Japan and on LU is that circle lines are a pain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It matters very much.

some would could it a circle, .....

What exactly do you mean by this phraseology?