XC Voyager Refurbishment

[GoneSouth]

That would require extra shunt/ferry drivers.

Forgive my ignorance, I’m not a railway employee, but why does that need a different driver to the one who’s just driven the unit into Newcastle station?

 

[dk1]

Forgive my ignorance, I’m not a railway employee, but why does that need a different driver to the one who’s just driven the unit into Newcastle station?

They would no doubt need a PNB then that unit has got to be shunted back in again from wherever it’s been left. All these moves have to be taken into account when diagramming recourses.

 

[Killingworth]

Also, if a train is hanging around Newcastle for hours, why can’t it be moved to sidings /depot somewhere?

As a former train spotter at Newcastle I'm saddened to see that so much platform capacity has been removed, including both central road tracks between the old platforms 8 and 9. The days of the 0-6-0 station shunter are long gone.

The station's main platforms are bi-directional and with entry from the south possible over either the King Edward or High Level bridges it doesn't seem too big an ask to accommodate two terminating 5 car trains at the same time.

 

[Halish Railway]

The station's main platforms are bi-directional and with entry from the south possible over either the King Edward or High Level bridges it doesn't seem too big an ask to accommodate two terminating 5 car trains at the same time.

That may work for now, but in the likely circumstance that TPE and XC move towards operating trains that are at least seven carriages long that won’t be an option for much longer.

Certainly a long-term solution needs to be found for the need to increase terminating capacity at Newcastle for long trains.

 

[ModernRailways]

Yes.

Oxford to Durham, a 4 hour+ journey, so let's ask the question...

Stand in a vestibule on a 4 car Voyager for 4 hours on a direct train?

Or

Sit in a seat for on a double Voyager and make one change at York?

Yeah, hard choice there.

That might be the option, but say you have that option, people will see a direct train and will still tend towards that.
Case in point, just after Christmas (or maybe before) I boarded a XC service that was following another, both trains on time just 8 or 9 minutes separation, I was in an 8 car starting from Edinburgh, the other was a 5 car that had started further north. My train was well-loaded but there were plenty of seats available, the other train was full and standing with passengers up against the doors. I was originally planning to get the 5 car because the timings were slightly better and I would’ve made a connection but after checking RTT and seeing it was a 5 car and the following was an 8 car I chose to go for the 8. 99% of passengers wouldn’t check that, they will just go for whatever’s best and spat out by journey planners. My train terminated at Birmingham and went via the ECML south of York to Doncaster and then across to Sheffield, skipping Leeds and Westgate, but then stopping a few more times after Sheffield. The other service went via Leeds, but only had 1 or 2 stops after Sheffield to Birmingham before continuing further south.

I’ve always said a not insignificant chunk of XC capacity problems come from filling in a gap left by poor local services, whether it be poor timetabling, or just total lack of capacity.
In/Around Birmingham, and the Leeds/Wakefield/Sheffield, sections you will often see people jumping on for just 1 or 2 stops, specifically on the section between Leeds and Sheffield more passengers should be pushed onto the local Northern services (with additional capacity). XC is a long distance operator but seem to end up covering for mass amounts of short distance trips. It’s notable the difference in XC services and demand when they do operate via Pontefract (fast between York and Sheffield) or via Doncaster and skip Leeds. They’re still super busy and in need of additional capacity but you’ll find the majority are on board for a long intercity journey and not just a local short hop (relatively speaking).

 

[The Ham]

But why would that route be doubled up when the SW one isn’t guaranteed to be doubled up as well? Which takes priority and why?

I’d say Reading to Manchester should be doubled too.

Stocking up would sissy's be preferable , however, the number of units being just four coaches looking is likely to reduce following the introduction of all the extra units (which is likely to be after they've been refurbished)

If we assume that the new trains are being used to replace 4 coach diagrams so a pair of four couch units can then replace the 3 diagrams which were run by the HST's (6 of the 12) and 2 are needed as spares (when the preferred option would be to swap out 4 coach units as spares) and the remaining 4 are used to invest capacity by substituting for four coaches units (which then, each allow, 2 other diagrams to see capacity improvements).

That's:
10 x four coach units directly replaced by five coach units
4 of which then do a shuffle so they pair up with another 4 coach unit to replace a 5 coach unit
4 x five coach units replace 4 coach units to allow the pairing above
3 x HST diagrams reinstated

Even ignoring the HS2 diagrams that's 18 diagrams with at least 25% extra capacity.

It means that the likelihood of a four coach unit (not as a pair) - even though I've kept 2 of the five coach units as spares,

 

[sprinterguy]

If we assume that the new trains are being used to replace 4 coach diagrams so a pair of four couch units can then replace the 3 diagrams which were run by the HST's (6 of the 12)

Not detracting from your overall concept, but the 2-3 regular HST diagrams have been booked double Voyager formations since the HSTs were withdrawn.

 

[Killingworth]

The 2-3 regular HST diagrams have been booked double Voyager formations since the HSTs were withdrawn.

Part of the problem experienced by users is that sets booked often don't seem to run throughout. Availability of more units must help.

 

[The Ham]

The 2-3 regular HST diagrams have been booked double Voyager formations since the HSTs were withdrawn.

When I said about the HST's, I was comparing against pre COVID capacity.

 

[sprinterguy]

When I said about the HST's, I was comparing against pre COVID capacity.

There are more 350+ seat formations on the NE-SW corridor today (and immediately after the HSTs were withdrawn, in autumn 2023) than there were pre-Covid, whether HST or double Voyager. Though that's probably been made possible by the reduction in Newcastle - Reading services, some more of which are due to return at some point this year I think, so that does admittedly need additional units factoring in.

 

[Sporty60]

Do we know if the refurbishment will include traffic light style reservation displays?

 

[Wyrleybart]

I’m referring to the Reading - Newcastle service not the South West - Scotland service. The Reading - Newcastle service is back in some half baked form.


Yes I am. The capacity would be better used strengthening other services to 8 or 9 car than it is providing a direct service for a limited number of passengers who benefit from a direct Oxford/Banbury/Leamington to Darlington/Durham/Newcastle. Or if strengthening other services is such an alien idea to XC then use the freed up 4 cars to create slack in the fleet for the refurbishment project.

I am not sure many of the XC clientele would agree. a lot of passengers use XC for leisure travel and some can be more mature / more infirm / less confident, so make the easiest / convenient journey possible. Many of this kind of passenger just want to find their seat and travel. Some have a fear of getting on the wrong train / climbing stairs etc, then risking not having a seat between say York and Durham. If I was such a passenger, and found out I had to change because of the railway having "the wrong kind of trains" I would not be happy

 

[BanburyBlue]

I am not sure many of the XC clientele would agree. a lot of passengers use XC for leisure travel and some can be more mature / more infirm / less confident, so make the easiest / convenient journey possible. Many of this kind of passenger just want to find their seat and travel. Some have a fear of getting on the wrong train / climbing stairs etc, then risking not having a seat between say York and Durham. If I was such a passenger, and found out I had to change because of the railway having "the wrong kind of trains" I would not be happy

I think is backed up by ticket numbers. I'm sure I read somewhere the amount of ticket sales to Liverpool dropped significantly on XC following the removal of direct trains.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There are more 350+ seat formations on the NE-SW corridor today (and immediately after the HSTs were withdrawn, in autumn 2023) than there were pre-Covid, whether HST or double Voyager. Though that's probably been made possible by the reduction in Newcastle - Reading services, some more of which are due to return at some point this year I think, so that does admittedly need additional units factoring in.

Where "some more" means "one more".

 

[sprinterguy]

Where "some more" means "one more".

So it seems - I'd gained the inaccurate impression, I think from a RAIL article, that there would be more than that.

 

[The_Train]

Do we know if the refurbishment will include traffic light style reservation displays?

I've never managed to get that far into a carriage to know if they have any sort of reservation displays

 

[Cowley]

Yes I know that there’s a lot of Voyager threads…
Anyway, there’s a couple of new ones below to keep things clear in this thread:

Should Cross Country XC services be curtailed at York?

I am not sure many of the XC clientele would agree. a lot of passengers use XC for leisure travel and some can be more mature / more infirm / less confident, so make the easiest / convenient journey possible. Many of this kind of passenger just want to find their seat and travel. Some have a...

www.railforums.co.uk

XC Voyager Refurbishment. Is it actually worth doing?

mods note - split from here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xc-voyager-refurbishment.261302/ I think everyone can debate what Voyagers should go where doubled up or not until the end of time, but the fact of the matter is we have millions more people in this country now and as a result...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[FrontSideBus]

They certainly need to upgrade the reservation displays. The VFD's are so worn that they are almost illegible.

 

[Russel]

They certainly need to upgrade the reservation displays. The VFD's are so worn that they are almost illegible.

Can't say I've ever noticed an issue with them, I've always found the Voyager displays to be one of the easiest to read, certainly better than what was fitted to the Pendolinos.

 

[FrontSideBus]

The few I've been on have been really, really dim.

 

[occone]

It seems like XC have been starting to fix a lot of the blown out windows - it used to be that almost every train I'd see would have a window that had moisture inside it and was a different colour to the rest.

I still see it occasionally but it looks like they have actually done some good work fixing them.

 

[Russel]

It seems like XC have been starting to fix a lot of the blown out windows - it used to be that almost every train I'd see would have a window that had moisture inside it and was a different colour to the rest.

I still see it occasionally but it looks like they have actually done some good work fixing them.

That's positive at least.

What actually causes it?

 

[py_megapixel]

That's positive at least.

What actually causes it?

There is a small cavity between the two panes of a double-glazed window, which is ordinarily sealed off. However, if the seal fails then moist air from the surroundings can get between the panes. The moisture then condenses into small water droplets on the cool surface of the glass, leading to a misty appearance.
It's the same as the mist that forms on car and bus windows in cold weather, just between two panes rather than on the inside surface. (Of course that means you can't just wipe the condensation off when it occurs, so generally it needs the window to be replaced).

In some cases, the seal even gets so poor that it lets rainwater in, leading to large volumes of water that make the window look something like a fish tank! You can see an example of that in this post about the South Western class 458s: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-class-458-to-be-retained.215775/post-5076619

 

[MCR247]

There is a small cavity between the two panes of a double-glazed window, which is ordinarily sealed off. However, if the seal fails then moist air from the surroundings can get between the panes. The moisture then condenses into small water droplets on the cool surface of the glass, leading to a misty appearance.
It's the same as the mist that forms on car and bus windows in cold weather, just between two panes rather than on the inside surface. (Of course that means you can't just wipe the condensation off when it occurs, so generally it needs the window to be replaced).

In some cases, the seal even gets so poor that it lets rainwater in, leading to large volumes of water that make the window look something like a fish tank! You can see an example of that in this post about the South Western class 458s: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-class-458-to-be-retained.215775/post-5076619

If left untreated (like XC did/do) you always get mould growing on and around the rubber window surround

 

[GoneSouth]

If left untreated (like XC did/do) you always get mould growing on and around the rubber window surround

It can happen to any double glazed unit, difference is if it happens in your house you’d probably replace it unlike XC so it wouldn’t get to the mouldy stage. It’s happened to a couple of mine. As soon as you notice it’s getting cloudy in there you know it’s knackered. God knows how long it takes for the mould to get to the state XC’s are in. Feels pretty uncomfortable sitting next to it though so glad they’re doing something about it.

It’s fairly basic maintenance, like replacing lights that they just didn’t do.

Kick up behind required. Bet the people who decided not to spend the money never had the misfortune of sitting next to a huge pile of mould next to their face. Disgusting!

 

[Trainman40083]

It can happen to any double glazed unit, difference is if it happens in your house you’d probably replace it unlike XC so it wouldn’t get to the mouldy stage. It’s happened to a couple of mine. As soon as you notice it’s getting cloudy in there you know it’s knackered. God knows how long it takes for the mould to get to the state XC’s are in. Feels pretty uncomfortable sitting next to it though so glad they’re doing something about it.

It’s fairly basic maintenance, like replacing lights that they just didn’t do.

Kick up behind required. Bet the people who decided not to spend the money never had the misfortune of sitting next to a huge pile of mould next to their face. Disgusting!

I can't see the DfT allowing XC to spend money on windows. After all, their staff don't use XC, so won't see a problem

 

[E B]

So when can we expect to see the first refurbished voyager?

 

[Discuss223]

Are there any plans to refurbish/replace or add to the catering equipment in the galleys?

I believe the ex-Avanti units have steam ovens for First Class and specialist coffee machines.

Classic units at the moment just have a hot water dispenser and a microwave.

The images of the refurbishment project don't show what will happen to the staff areas.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any plans to refurbish/replace or add to the catering equipment in the galleys?

I believe the ex-Avanti units have steam ovens for First Class and specialist coffee machines.

Classic units at the moment just have a hot water dispenser and a microwave.

The images of the refurbishment project don't show what will happen to the staff areas.

Realistically the ex-Avanti units will be changed to match the rest?

Any catering improvement seems to fit somewhere between impossible and incredibly unlikely…

 

[occone]

I've seen they're replacing their outside displays with new ones but it always amuses me to see how run down they let things get.

Photo is from today

But as said above, noone with any influence travels via XC... Trees falling in forests and all that