Grand Central order Hitachi Tri-Modes - confirmed

[tfw756rider]

The LNER CAF trains are Class 897 so I wonder if these new Hitachi trains will be Class 812, Class 880 or even the first Class 900 train?

They definitely won't be 900s, as classes 900-999 are for "Infrastructure maintenance and other non-passenger multiple-unit / fixed-formation sets". They fall into classes 800-899, which are "High-speed multiple-unit / fixed-formation sets". They're unlikely to be 812s, as they're based on the 80x design rather the 810 design.

880 would be a bit random, but I guess you're thinking that because 897s are tri-mode units, that's why they're in the "high 800s", whereas I don't think that has anything to do with it, because a) I think 897 was chosen because it's a "CAF-sounding" number like 197 and 397, and b) a unit being tri-mode rather than bi-mode isn't a significant enough difference for it to require a significantly different class number (see the bi-mode 755s and the tri-mode 756s).

Class 850? Since the 897s are being planned for LNER

See the second paragraph of my reply to @Thirteen. Also, I think a number in the region of 850 would be better used for the HS2 trains (I think @MattRat's suggestion of 852 for those is quite good).

All previous 26m Hitachi AT300s are numbered in the 80x series (800, 801, 802, 803, 805, 807), so in my view the obvious numbers to be used, assuming it gets a new class number at all and it isn't just another set of 802s or 805s, would be 806, 808, or 809.

Exactly, although 806 would break the chronological order of entries into service of the "non-Intercity Express Programme" 80x classes - 802 in 2018, 803 in 2021, 805 in June 2024, 807 in October 2024 but then 806 in 2028. I think 808 or 809 would make more sense for the Grand Central units (or 808 for the 2024-ordered extra Lumo / Hull Trains units and 809 for the Grand Central units).

Logically, 808, having skipped 804 (was that the original number given to the 810s?) and 806. All of the bi-modes are even numbered apart from the 805s. But class numbering is so weird now, they might be 802/3s, 370s or 140s. Who knows?

I'll assume that "370s or 140s" is a joke 802/3s already exist; they're the Hull Trains 802s. Yes, the 802s have a higher number of batches than any other 80x class (Great Western Railway 802/1, TransPennine Express 802/2 and Hull Trains 802/3s), but the Grand Central units probably won't be 802/4s (or 802s at all) because a) they're tri-mode rather than bi-mode, and b) they're based on the updated 805s rather than the older 802s.

There is little reason to believe they'll be anything except 80x. I imagine the tri-mode design of the units will prevent it from being part of an existing class, but until we hear otherwise it's probably going to be the next in sequence up from 800... If only Avanti hadn't broken it with the 805s and 807s.

Indeed - in addition to the reason I gave in my reply to @Trainbike46 for 806 not making the most sense, 806 would also be in-between 805 and 807, so it would be in-between the two Avanti 80x classes.

 

[800001]

I would think that the battery is particulatory useful.when running under diesel as it allows regenerative braking to be used to charge the batteries. The batteries would also allow the diesel engines to run at a more consistent level and when acceleration is required the batteries will kick in to provide additional power to the motors.

When the train is going more slowly the diesel engines can charge the batteries so that the diesel engines are operating in their most economic power range.

When entering stations at low speed the battery could power the train completely. Presumably also the batteries can provide hotel power when stationary so the diesel engines can be turned off completely.

I'm assuming that these units are likely to.be based on the 805s which are the most recent standard bimode units.

The 805s can accelerate more rapidly when running on electric than when the power is provided by the the three diesel engines so it is possible that with the battery pack and two diesels that train could get a bit more acceleration than a purely diesel configuration for short periods..

There may also be an ability to charge the batteries when running under the wires so that there can be a mains contribution when running off the wires but I would be surprised if the single battery pack per unit could drive the train for a significant distance. The regenerative braking charging the battery would be useful when running on OHLE.

( I don't have hard info on what has actually been ordered. This is a bit speculative based on the general performance of batteries )

An article from Modern Railways on the performance of 802207 the Battery test train.

Hitachi battery trial delivers 50% fuel saving

Development of full battery-electric intercity train next for Hitachi

www.modernrailways.com

Hitachi Rail and Angel Trains say a two-month trial of battery operation in a TransPennine Express Class 802 has exceeded expectation, with fuel cost savings of between 35% and 50%, exceeding forecasts of a maximum of 30%.

No 802207 was fitted with a 700kW battery developed by Turntide Technologies, based in Sunderland. It has proven able to power the train to speeds of more than 75mph while achieving all journey times and performance requirements. The battery weighs the same as the diesel engine and alternator it replaced and was installed in the same underfloor space on the train.

Testing has focused on using battery power as the train arrives and departs from stations in non-electrified areas to reduce emissions in urban areas. It powered the unit for a mile either side of stations, switching to diesel traction.
Evaluation suggested that a single battery on an Intercity Express Train-type unit can deliver the claimed fuel savings, which are dependent on train settings, battery usage and driving style. An ‘Eco mode’ where the battery entirely powers the train on approach to and departure from stations delivered the greatest saving. The train also operated under battery power for a range of 43 miles, which Hitachi says is ‘more than adequate’ to cover non-electrified sections under bridges and tunnels, and final stretches of routes.

Hitachi is now developing a full battery-electric inter-city train which would have a range of between 60 and 90 miles, enabling it to cover long sections of non-electrified routes, and potentially avoiding the need for electrification in areas where engineering or commercial considerations make it too expensive. It adds that it is working with Innovate UK and the University of Birmingham to develop a new battery 40% smaller than that evaluated on the Class 802 and with a 22% improvement in energy density using Lithium Ion Phosphate chemistry. This initiative is being supported by DB ESG which is leading the design of the battery enclosure.

Compact installation: the 700kW battery occupies the same space under a Class 802 as its engine and associated equipment. Courtesy Hitachi Rail

 

[Bald Rick]

The batteries in the TPE trial were essentially Nissan Leaf batteries, which are just about the worst out there in automotive use. Hopefully something more useful and robust in these.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Goodbye, comfortable seats on Grand Central...

The seats on their Class 180 trains are awful already for anyone semi-tall.* Anything would be an improvement over them.

*in my view from sitting on them

 

[Scotrail88]

On the Sunderland services, I presume the power traction switch over will kick in at Northallerton whilst stopped at the station.

Is there a risk of this as could be blocking the main line?

 

[JonathanH]

On the Sunderland services, I presume the power traction switch over will kick in at Northallerton whilst stopped at the station.

Is there a risk of this as could be blocking the main line?

How often does the power changeover fail on 80x units? I don't think it is a frequent issue. No more than the existing stock causes disruption.

 

[Richard123]

What is the balance between diesel and battery, ie is there just one diesel and the other vehicles have batteries or is the balance more 50/50

Given the reliability of IET GUs (train availability is terrible and often run with 1 GU failed, sometimes limp with 2 until removed from service)... I would assume 2 GUs.

Unless they are certain they can get to destination and back on battery only, can't risk running on a single GU?

 

[YorkRailFan]

First interior renders…

https://x.com/todaysrailways/status/1907836074052747575?s=46&t=v-EG8IN4HKevCou-aZfq8w

The seats look like Lumo's on the 803s, and Avanti's on the 805s/807s, so certainly better than those on the 800/801/802.

Goodbye, comfortable seats on Grand Central...

Can't wait to see the back end of those seats, my back will forever be grateful.

The seats on their Class 180 trains are awful already for anyone semi-tall.* Anything would be an improvement over them.

*in my view from sitting on them

Hard agree, the curvature of the seats is just painful as someone over 185cm.

 

[The exile]

Given the reliability of IET GUs (train availability is terrible and often run with 1 GU failed, sometimes limp with 2 until removed from service)... I would assume 2 GUs.

Unless they are certain they can get to destination and back on battery only, can't risk running on a single GU?

GU?

 

[Snow1964]

The batteries in the TPE trial were essentially Nissan Leaf batteries, which are just about the worst out there in automotive use. Hopefully something more useful and robust in these.

This is an article on some new Hitachi trains with batteries, in Italy.
It provides some possible info (assuming Hitachi starts with what it is already using elsewhere, and they are not likely to invent something for just 9 trains)

Battery Commuter Trains | Hitachi Rail

www.hitachirail.com

I realise these specs relate to articulated commuter trains, not IETs but until we hear anything more definite, will probably help answer some general questions, especially as there are technical specs, although of course will need to be scaled up in power and top speed.

https://www.hitachirail.com/media/24pbolbr/website_product_cards___battery_commuter_trains.pdf

 

[JonathanH]

GU?

Generating unit, another word for engine.

 

[Discuss223]

It doesn't look to be updated from the 2015 Hitachi design that was used on the AZUMAs.

I'd have thought that they might have updated it.

I wonder how performance will be affected with it being a tri-mode - effectively having to carry the weight of 2 out of use power supply kits (engine, generator, battery pack).

Interesting that they have gone for 5 cars again, many of their trains that I have caught could warrant 6 coaches, such as the 20:XX from London King's Cross.

 

[357]

It doesn't look to be updated from the 2015 Hitachi design that was used on the AZUMAs.

I'd have thought that they might have updated it.

I wonder how performance will be affected with it being a tri-mode - effectively having to carry the weight of 2 out of use power supply kits (engine, generator, battery pack).

Interesting that they have gone for 5 cars again, many of their trains that I have caught could warrant 6 coaches, such as the 20:XX from London King's Cross.

Performance should be fine. More details of the system will emerge in due course.

Hitachi only seem to make odd numbers of coaches, and platform lengths once off the ECML are already tight on 5 car sets.

 

[py_megapixel]

The seats look like Lumo's on the 803s, and Avanti's on the 805s/807s, so certainly better than those on the 800/801/802.

I'm not sure that's correct, they seem to be the same seat frame as the 800s - the overall shape is the same and they have the same oddly shaped/positioned handhold about 2/3 the way up the seat back. But they do seem to have specified a lot more padding, and assuming they are using the more modern version (as specified by TfW) which seems to solve the problem of the base cushion wearing through and leaving you sitting on a narrow metal bar, they still have the potential to be reasonably comfortable.

It's pleasing also that they seem to have gone for a reasonably nice lighting setup, which should make the interior feel a lot less Spartan. Of course this also wouldn't be the first time the interior design in initial renders was substantially different to what appeared in reality.

They were tendered, as per the law.

Do you have any more details about this legal requirement? I would have thought that the open access operators weren't required to put this sort of thing out to tender, except perhaps by their own internal policies?

Interesting that they have gone for 5 cars again, many of their trains that I have caught could warrant 6 coaches, such as the 20:XX from London King's Cross.

Bear in mind that 80x carriages are longer than 180 or 221 ones so there is still a capacity increase.

 

[Class 317]

It doesn't look to be updated from the 2015 Hitachi design that was used on the AZUMAs.

I'd have thought that they might have updated it.

I wonder how performance will be affected with it being a tri-mode - effectively having to carry the weight of 2 out of use power supply kits (engine, generator, battery pack).

Interesting that they have gone for 5 cars again, many of their trains that I have caught could warrant 6 coaches, such as the 20:XX from London King's Cross.

The battery pack will replace a diesel generator unit and the trail one weighed an identical amount to the GU it replaced. Performance will not be affected and indeed acceleration on battery and diesel hybrid mode was better than straight diesel in the test.

 

[800001]

On the Sunderland services, I presume the power traction switch over will kick in at Northallerton whilst stopped at the station.

Is there a risk of this as could be blocking the main line?

Change over on the move south of Northallerton as LNER do?

 

[sprinterguy]

Interesting that they have gone for 5 cars again, many of their trains that I have caught could warrant 6 coaches, such as the 20:XX from London King's Cross.

To be fair, depending on how the interiors are configured a 5-car 80x could easily have at least 60 more seats than a 180 (conservative estimate using the Hull Trains layout - more would be possible), which pretty much is an extra carriage. As noted in previous posts, there are operational reasons why 5 cars is considered desirable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have any more details about this legal requirement? I would have thought that the open access operators weren't required to put this sort of thing out to tender, except perhaps by their own internal policies?

My apologies you are quite right, I had ‘a senior moment’ there.

Nevertheless, when you are spending £300m of your shareholders’ money, you will want to be sure you have the best deal.

 

[Kite159]

..

Change over on the move south of Northallerton as LNER do?

Considering Grand Central stop at Northallerton wouldn't changing in the station be more logical.

The interesting part will be where they change over from AC to 'diesel/battery' on the Bradford services. Will it be on the move near the junction for the slow line towards Knottingley (yes I know it doesn't go via the station) or at Doncaster station. And will it be near the junction near Fitzwilliam for those which go that direction

 

[357]

..

Considering Grand Central stop at Northallerton wouldn't changing in the station be more logical.

The interesting part will be where they change over from AC to 'diesel/battery' on the Bradford services. Will it be on the move near the junction for the slow line towards Knottingley (yes I know it doesn't go via the station) or at Doncaster station. And will it be near the junction near Fitzwilliam for those which go that direction

There is signage at Hare Park Junction (after Fitzwilliam) for 80x changeover as Azumas are cleared and operated that way.

There is (currently) no such signage at Shaftholme Junction (where the trains go when traveling via Knottingley)

 

[TheGrew]

Will the power supply on the ECML need strengthening for further electric traction? (I'm thinking the Peterborough<->Doncaster Section)

 

[Bald Rick]

Will the power supply on the ECML need strengthening for further electric traction? (I'm thinking the Peterborough<->Doncaster Section)

AIUI this was in the baseline, and has been expected for some time.

 

[AJDesiro]

I'm not sure that's correct, they seem to be the same seat frame as the 800s - the overall shape is the same and they have the same oddly shaped/positioned handhold about 2/3 the way up the seat back. But they do seem to have specified a lot more padding, and assuming they are using the more modern version (as specified by TfW) which seems to solve the problem of the base cushion wearing through and leaving you sitting on a narrow metal bar, they still have the potential to be reasonably comfortable.

The seats used in the renders are variants of the FISA LEAN, not the Fainsa Sophia used on the 1st-generation IETs and 197s (albeit improved). The Avanti Everos have them in first class. The 810s for EMR will also use a variant of them.

 

[YorksLad12]

They definitely won't be 900s, as classes 900-999 are for "Infrastructure maintenance and other non-passenger multiple-unit / fixed-formation sets". They fall into classes 800-899, which are "High-speed multiple-unit / fixed-formation sets". They're unlikely to be 812s, as they're based on the 80x design rather the 810 design.

880 would be a bit random, but I guess you're thinking that because 897s are tri-mode units, that's why they're in the "high 800s", whereas I don't think that has anything to do with it, because a) I think 897 was chosen because it's a "CAF-sounding" number like 197 and 397, and b) a unit being tri-mode rather than bi-mode isn't a significant enough difference for it to require a significantly different class number (see the bi-mode 755s and the tri-mode 756s).

See the second paragraph of my reply to @Thirteen. Also, I think a number in the region of 850 would be better used for the HS2 trains (I think @MattRat's suggestion of 852 for those is quite good).

Exactly, although 806 would break the chronological order of entries into service of the "non-Intercity Express Programme" 80x classes - 802 in 2018, 803 in 2021, 805 in June 2024, 807 in October 2024 but then 806 in 2028. I think 808 or 809 would make more sense for the Grand Central units (or 808 for the 2024-ordered extra Lumo / Hull Trains units and 809 for the Grand Central units).

I'll assume that "370s or 140s" is a joke 802/3s already exist; they're the Hull Trains 802s. Yes, the 802s have a higher number of batches than any other 80x class (Great Western Railway 802/1, TransPennine Express 802/2 and Hull Trains 802/3s), but the Grand Central units probably won't be 802/4s (or 802s at all) because a) they're tri-mode rather than bi-mode, and b) they're based on the updated 805s rather than the older 802s.

Indeed - in addition to the reason I gave in my reply to @Trainbike46 for 806 not making the most sense, 806 would also be in-between 805 and 807, so it would be in-between the two Avanti 80x classes.

Forgot about the Hull Trains sets. I was, of course, joking about 370/140... but have long given up on TOPS numbering being sensible. Sheffield's tram-train units are 399; Wales's are 398 but came after the 399s. Neither is close to the 397s!

In IT databases, you don't reuse older record numbers, you always increment. So I could see 820 as the class number, given that it's not quite an 80x train (being tri-mode) and longer than the 810s with which it is now in a race to be in passenger service first. Mind you, I'd have put the new LNER CAF units at 820. But whatever it turns out to be, it won't be logical

 

[800001]

..

Considering Grand Central stop at Northallerton wouldn't changing in the station be more logical.

The interesting part will be where they change over from AC to 'diesel/battery' on the Bradford services. Will it be on the move near the junction for the slow line towards Knottingley (yes I know it doesn't go via the station) or at Doncaster station. And will it be near the junction near Fitzwilliam for those which go that direction

The trains auto change on the move. Let the train do the work, one less things for a driver to think about during station call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats used in the renders are variants of the FISA LEAN, not the Fainsa Sophia used on the 1st-generation IETs and 197s (albeit improved). The Avanti Everos have them in first class. The 810s for EMR will also use a variant of them.

Poor legroom, then. Not a great choice. I don't get the present obsession with the things.

 

[Bald Rick]

Poor legroom, then. Not a great choice. I don't get the present obsession with the things.

Surely leg room is more a function of seat spacing, not seat type?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely leg room is more a function of seat spacing, not seat type?

It's a function of a few things.

1. The seat spacing against upper leg length.
2. The thickness and shape of the seat back (e.g. the LEAN is a bad seat because it misunderstands male physiology - almost all tall people are men - you need the niche at the sides as the 175/180 seat has, not in the middle).
3. The rake of the seat back against lower leg length (because if the back is steeply raked and you have long lower legs your knees will be higher where the seat goes further back).

Airlines know this very well (though use the changes to (2) and (3) to fit more seats in, not to increase legroom).

The best demonstration of this I've seen is Northern's 2 car 158s. These have, aside from a few priority rows where airlines replaced tables, the exact same layout as built. As built the legroom is terrible. But with the seats replaced *in the same layout* with Fainsa-Compin "ironing boards", a very upright, thin-backed seat, the legroom is absolutely cavernous. Pendolinos are another good example (as the original seats had the issues noted in (2), but the new ones not).

 

[RailWonderer]

The seats used in the renders are variants of the FISA LEAN, not the Fainsa Sophia used on the 1st-generation IETs and 197s (albeit improved). The Avanti Everos have them in first class. The 810s for EMR will also use a variant of them.

The 745/0s have them in the first class section albeit with leather not moquette and they feel almost identical to the standard class FISA lean.

It's a function of a few things.

1. The seat spacing against upper leg length.
2. The thickness and shape of the seat back (e.g. the LEAN is a bad seat because it misunderstands male physiology - almost all tall people are men - you need the niche at the sides as the 175/180 seat has, not in the middle).
3. The rake of the seat back against lower leg length (because if the back is steeply raked and you have long lower legs your knees will be higher where the seat goes further back).

Airlines know this very well (though use the changes to (2) and (3) to fit more seats in, not to increase legroom).

The best demonstration of this I've seen is Northern's 2 car 158s. These have, aside from a few priority rows where airlines replaced tables, the exact same layout as built. As built the legroom is terrible. But with the seats replaced *in the same layout* with Fainsa-Compin "ironing boards", a very upright, thin-backed seat, the legroom is absolutely cavernous. Pendolinos are another good example (as the original seats had the issues noted in (2), but the new ones not).

The FISA leans are not the most natural to sit in and I find myself fidgeting in them more than in an original 158 seat, where I stretch if sat in a bay with no one opposite and don't move, or sit diagonally if in an airline seat (as a 5'9 1/2 male) and can't physically move.

 

[GhostManDN91]

IET'S can be ordered in any number of carriages between 4 and 12.

I never thought Arriva would go through with ordering new trains for Grand Central, as it would open the flood gates to pressure to replace the XC fleet. All of the Voyagers could do with being replaced with 9 Class 80X's.

Hopefully XC do get Hitachi's next. Still got their 220/221s from Manchester to Coventry which is OHLE yet using diesel all that way. Be a nice change on that section and faster acceleration too.