Livery under Great British Railways

[Sad Sprinter]

As this thread is speculative I thought I would get creative and apply the different colours we have at the moment and translate them to GBR station and on-train logos, with some renamings of franchises. I didn't use RA2 because I'm not a fan of it, but on request I can redo these in RA2. Intercity I have applied only for operations that only operate IC services. I have included XC as Intercity but the Brum - Leicester - Stansted should be transferred to East Midlands branding to neaten things out.

This is great. Although maybe it’s time to return Southern to South Central, which makes sense considering the names of its neighbouring railways.

 

[Flinn Reed]

This is great. Although maybe it’s time to return Southern to South Central, which makes sense considering the names of its neighbouring railways.

I think ideally the London metro routes from all franchises (but particularly in South London) should be transferred to TFL. Either run in a similar way to the Overground, or just applying TFL branding if it makes sense operationally to manage alongside longer distance routes.

As the metro routes are a large proportion of the Southern/Southeastern/SWR networks, you could then the remaining routes into two franchises/brands. Most of Southern could merge with Southeastern, but perhaps with SWR taking over the West Coastway (and maybe also services from London to the South Coast via Horsham)?

I wonder if there will be more attempts to transfer more routes to TFL once the full network is under common GBR ownership? I think at a minimum, what might be worth doing is at least have TFL take over all railway stations within Greater London (or extend to all stations accepting contactless fares - out to Gatwick etc). This would give standardised signage etc to all stations and make the non-TFL services feel more like part of the integrated London network for passengers.

 

[Meerkat]

I think it's fair to say that if GBR is a given (which as far as this thread goes it is) then having different line based branding and a fragmented network in terms of how it faces the customer is a bad idea. If they were genuinely different companies that's a different thing entirely and I'd agree isn't really for this thread.

You still haven't really explained why it would be a bad idea. You can still get loads of the alleged savings with shared back office, shared uniforms (with different badges), shared website (different colour schemes on the same workings), even shared staff if that makes sense.

As the metro routes are a large proportion of the Southern/Southeastern/SWR networks, you could then the remaining routes into two franchises/brands. Most of Southern could merge with Southeastern, but perhaps with SWR taking over the West Coastway (and maybe also services from London to the South Coast via Horsham)?

I assume there will be some sort of Kent Mayor(s) and a Greater Brighton/Sussex one - they can 'run' (or at least specify or consult on) Southeastern and Southern. The coastways are pretty much a Brighton metro. Thameslink will be an odd cross between TFL and TPE!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You still haven't really explained why it would be a bad idea.

I have - network benefits in making journeys that cross regions feel more viable and connected. You just don't agree that those things are more important than maintaining a fragmented public face. It's fine that we agree to disagree, but I think that's different from me not having explained it. We're just both pretty entrenched in our views and are unlikely to change them.

(Of course nothing says you can't have "Bee Network by GBR" and the likes with family liveries* like Regional Railways did and indeed Stagecoach has done with Beachball - but nobody ever said "that's not my problem, that's Bee" - the feel was still of one BR).

* The way to do this is to have familiar shapes but change the colours. See also the three South West Trains variants.

 

[generalnerd]

(Of course nothing says you can't have "Bee Network by GBR" and the likes with family liveries* like Regional Railways did and indeed Stagecoach has done with Beachball - but nobody ever said "that's not my problem, that's Bee" - the feel was still of one BR).

I believe this is what most posters want for GBR and what also want. During sectorisation, Staff shared uniforms and everything was still British rail, just certain elements were branded differently from each other. NSE wasn’t ridiculously different from regional railways at some points, the only difference being the rolling stock and signage

 

[Meerkat]

I have - network benefits in making journeys that cross regions feel more viable and connected. You just don't agree that those things are more important than maintaining a fragmented public face. It's fine that we agree to disagree, but I think that's different from me not having explained it. We're just both pretty entrenched in our views and are unlikely to change them.

(Of course nothing says you can't have "Bee Network by GBR" and the likes with family liveries* like Regional Railways did and indeed Stagecoach has done with Beachball - but nobody ever said "that's not my problem, that's Bee" - the feel was still of one BR).

* The way to do this is to have familiar shapes but change the colours. See also the three South West Trains variants.

I don’t see how different brands changes that. In fact those things could be done with franchises just by making them part of the rules.
My memories of BR involved plenty of grumpy staff with a ‘not my problem shrug’ attitude!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2025 ==

* The way to do this is to have familiar shapes but change the colours. See also the three South West Trains variants.

The familiar shape is a train - that’s why I don’t see the need for a National brand to replace local ones (other than adding double arrows). People know it’s a train and they are on the system

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t see how different brands changes that.

Because human psychology. If things are branded differently they feel like something different, both to passengers and to staff.

Look, for instance, at how many people waste their money paying Trainline fees because they think TOC booking sites can only book that TOC.

 

[Meerkat]

Because human psychology. If things are branded differently they feel like something different, both to passengers and to staff.

Exactly - which is why you need local brands to appeal to local markets and local staff.
The success of Trainline seems like a major marketing failure of the TOCs, and will be irrelevant if GBR manages to create a single ticketing source.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly - which is why you need local brands to appeal to local markets and local staff.
The success of Trainline seems like a major marketing failure of the TOCs, and will be irrelevant if GBR manages to create a single ticketing source.

Dare I suggest that part of the success of Trainline is precisely because it's a single brand covering the whole country and is not fragmented like TOC sites?

If GBR created a ticketing site (which it certainly could do) and sold tickets under the brand GBR people would start asking "but can I use that on Northern?" if the TOCs didn't at least carry "by GBR" type branding. Trainline is at least seen as separate, sort of a travel agent.

 

[RailWonderer]

Dare I suggest that part of the success of Trainline is precisely because it's a single brand covering the whole country and is not fragmented like TOC sites?

If GBR created a ticketing site (which it certainly could do) and sold tickets under the brand GBR people would start asking "but can I use that on Northern?" if the TOCs didn't at least carry "by GBR" type branding. Trainline is at least seen as separate, sort of a travel agent.

Then have all websites from OLRs to redirect to the new GBR site and there you go. Then when booking tickets there can be asterixes that state - for use on Northern only. It would also be an opportunity to get rid of TPE only etc. But all of this will take a review that probably won't happen because that's not how British institutions work - when it's about streamlining things, it never happens unless it's a lot more lucrative for the DfT/Treasury to do so. Otherwise fragmentation rules the roost. I doubt streamlining for brand clarity and cohesion will happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then have all websites from OLRs to redirect to the new GBR site and there you go. Then when booking tickets there can be asterixes that state - for use on Northern only. It would also be an opportunity to get rid of TPE only etc. But all of this will take a review that probably won't happen because that's not how British institutions work - when it's about streamlining things, it never happens unless it's a lot more lucrative for the DfT/Treasury to do so. Otherwise fragmentation rules the roost. I doubt streamlining for brand clarity and cohesion will happen.

I think it will. And similarly that TOC specific walk up fares will go away. Like to be fair most of those ones in the North where the saving is pennies - the only place where it really makes sense is WMT/Chiltern vs Avanti where it's market-broadening with a cheaper, slower service and a more expensive, faster one, and those would be able to be done with route Northampton* and route High Wycombe. And even then it might just switch to being Advances only but in basically unlimited numbers right up to a couple of minutes before departure as TfW do it now (and Northern to some extent).

TOC specific fares where the difference is pence are one of the biggest complaints about fares complexity there is. And that's with things as they are with TOC liveries. If we were standardising the livery (as I think we will) it becomes even harder to see which train is which, even if you do have Network SouthEast style regional markings or similar.

* Yes, no doubt some enthusiasts will just change at MKC and Rugby to get in Pendolino mileage, but almost nobody aside from them will change trains unnecessarily, people prefer direct where it exists.

 

[Meerkat]

Differential fares are still needed to push short distance passengers off long distance trains.

 

[Sunnyside]

Differential fares are still needed to push short distance passengers off long distance trains.

Why is this something to be desired? Surely maximising rail travel is critical to any future successful rail network?

 

[JamesT]

Why is this something to be desired? Surely maximising rail travel is critical to any future successful rail network?

Because it’s potentially easier/cheaper to provide additional capacity on commuter style trains than high speed express ones. But people will tend to cram themselves onto the express unless you give an incentive not to.
So maximising use of the railway could look similar to today with different offers at different price points. The question is how to do that when you no longer have TOCs to tie tickets to.

 

[Russel]

Why is this something to be desired? Surely maximising rail travel is critical to any future successful rail network?

Try to use an XC Service from Birmingham that calls at Coventry or Wolverhampton, you'll soon work out why.

 

[Meerkat]

Why is this something to be desired? Surely maximising rail travel is critical to any future successful rail network?

Exactly. Fill the slow trains with local traffic so you can fill the fast trains with long distance traffic.

 

[Wivenswold]

Maybe it's my age, but I think how Network South East had a unified livery but line/area specific badges would work best.

Provincial livery with local branding like- North East/North West/Cross Country/South West/Midlands/East Anglia
NSE livery - too many to name.
Intercity livery - labeled up as LNER/GWR/WCML/High Speed Rail and any other long-distance service with 2 classes and a buffet car.
Local Authorities with their own liveries for the sake of a local identity.

I'm not in favour of expanding TfL's network of services that go outside of Greater London, it leads to all sorts of issues like having no toilets and predominantly sideways seating on a service that's over an hour end to end.

 

[Zomboid]

I'd go for a common "shape" but vary the colours.

Take Intercity operations for example, and use the LNER 800 scheme as a base shape. The white background is common to all routes, and then the colours would vary.

Say Red stripe = ECML, green GWML, Dark Blue = WCML, purple = MML, Silver = XC, Light blue = TPE. That kind of thing, then you've got a unified brand in the shape of the livery, but each route still has an identity.

Regional trains could maybe take a similar approach, but with a different base colour and shape (silver base, perhaps?), and then local trains could just be basically all over wherever the colour for the area is. Though I realise I haven't given Southern a colour yet!

Don't get hung up on what the colours are, there just illustrative...

 

[Wivenswold]

I like that idea of a common style/shape rather than a common colour scheme.

White for the Intercity base, silver for Provincial, maybe a darker metallic Pewter colour for London & The South East.
The problem for me is, there are some genuinely good liveries out there at the moment. LNER, GWR, GA, West Midlands (orange/purple in particular), Trans-Pennine spring to mind that I hope cling on for as long as possible.

I fear that they'll come up with one plain livery that's applied in exactly the same way on every train regardless of whether it suits that train's shape.
Anyone who remembers the Blue/Grey livery on the Brighton Belle units will know of the dangers of a standard livery that ends up looking odd on some trains.

 

[Zomboid]

You'd like to think that we're past the days of blue/grey being applied in the same manner to pretty much everything.

Trains come in two basic shapes these days - a long rectangle, or a long rectangle with pointy ends. There are obviously a lot of detail differences and each type ought to have a bespoke design to work with the lines of the individual units, but it should be possible to have a reasonably coherent structure that can be applied.

 

[Wivenswold]

I totally agree. If it's to be one livery, it should certainly be applied in a way that's sympathetic to the design of each type of train.

 

[Zomboid]

I totally agree. If it's to be one livery, it should certainly be applied in a way that's sympathetic to the design of each type of train.

SWT managed it with the red/ white/ blue base schemes they had, so it can be done.

 

[whoosh]

Dare I suggest that part of the success of Trainline is precisely because it's a single brand covering the whole country and is not fragmented like TOC sites?

If GBR created a ticketing site (which it certainly could do) and sold tickets under the brand GBR people would start asking "but can I use that on Northern?" if the TOCs didn't at least carry "by GBR" type branding. Trainline is at least seen as separate, sort of a travel agent.

I think that's a very good point.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Say Red stripe = ECML, green GWML, Dark Blue = WCML, purple = MML, Silver = XC, Light blue = TPE. That kind of thing, then you've got a unified brand in the shape of the livery, but each route still has an identity.

Isn't it fascinating how the WCML and ECML colours somehow swapped around 2019, with the ECML going "red" and the WCML "blue" (well, teal), reversing the long-standing colour palettes developed by the LMS/LNER and perpetuated right through BR (LMR and ER) and most of the privatised era.
Virgin were the perpetrators of the change, wanting Virgin red on VTEC as well as VTWC.
They then gave back VTEC to the DfT who kept red on the Azumas with LNER, and then lost VTWC to FirstGroup who wanted a new colour for Avanti.

 

[99009]

Hopefully since this topic is in the speculative discussion section this post fits the criteria. If you disagree with this post that's fine, but please can I ask anyone who reads what's below be polite and kind; I'm new here and a bit nervous to post.

Here goes...

When thinking of a livery/liveries for GBR, in my opinion, whoever decides it need to think about the following point:

How can the livery/liveries of GBR trains make the railways feel easier for passengers, no matter how often they travel, to use?

The priority of the railways and therefore of GBR is to offer passengers a service that is simple, reliable and inclusive for all to use. A service that people, no matter how often they travel by rail, feel confident to use and feel is hassle/stress-free. A service that even during disruption doesn't cause confusion or frustration. The creation of GBR is a chance for the railway industry to offer something that feels like a clear reset to the majority of passengers, as well as make them feel that the railway is changing for the better, regardless of whether it actually is or not. An example of this not related to this thread would be the removal of TOC-specific tickets.

For that reason, if I had god like powers and were in charge of GBR + the decision of a new GBR livery, I would make colour a big theme as this is one of the most simple ways a passenger can identify their train. From this, I would choose one of the following 2 options:

(Please note before reading, any colours listed below are just examples of colours for the purpose of the post and not a definitive thing. I'm not seriously suggesting a bright orange XC train, I'm just using orange as an example because it's a colour I like)

1. Have 3 or 4 GBR liveries that identify the train by the type of service that it offers. For example:

Intercity/High Speed Trains (Current examples include but not limited to LNER/EMR Intercity/Avanti/XC Voyagers) would be red.
Semi-Fast/Long Distance Trains (Current examples include but not limited to EMR Connect 360's+EMR Liverpool - Norwich/XC 170's/TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes) would be blue.
Local Vast Majority or All Station Stops/Slow trains (e.g. Northern Leeds - Nottingham, Northern Man Picc - Sheffield, EMR Crewe - Newark) would be purple.
Very Short Distance Within A City Or Metro Services (e.g. London Overground, Merseyrail, any future Bee Network for Manchester) could retain their own local branding/colour.

2. Have 5/6 GBR liveries sorted by region so they don't overlap each other. You could repeat the colour if there's no or extremely limited chance of those services meeting each other and/or merge operators where possible. This would be trickier to do but something like (based off current operators):
SWR, Southeastern, Greater Anglia, LNWR = Blue.
Southern, GWR, C2C, Trans Pennine Express = Green.
LNER, Avanti, Chiltern = Red.
EMR, WMR, Great Northern = Purple.
XC = Orange.
Northern, Thameslink = Pink.

Why do this? So passengers can not only identify a service local to them but also a service type. Some examples are:

If stood on Peterborough station, a blue GBR train would identify the train heading east/south east. A red train would identify the fast train to London, Scotland or destinations to the north without clashing with open access operators. A purple train would identify the slower train to London or the slower train to Doncaster (I'd reclassify Liverpool - Norwich as XC). An orange train would identify a train crossing the country east - west.

If stood on Sheffield station, a green train would identify the Cleethorpes train. A purple train would identify the train to London. An orange train would identify a train crossing the country (remembering here I would classify Liverpool - Norwich as XC). A pink train would identify a slow all/vast majority of stations being stopped at service.

If stood on Birmingham New Street station, a white train would identify TFW. A blue train would identify a semi-fast train to Liverpool. A red train would identify a fast WCML train to London or Scotland. A purple train would identify a local or slow/vast majority of stops service. An orange train would identify a long distance cross country train. (I would classify the all stopping Birmingham - Leicester currently XC as WMR).

Obviously there are some examples above where colours would clash (LNER+Avanti at Glasgow or Edinburgh) but even here it simplifies the service for passengers who may not be familiar with travelling by rail. (Blue = Scotrail, Red = Fast Train to England/London, Green = Semi-Fast Train to Northern England, Orange = Fast Long Distance Train to England but not London.

In conclusion, I would make colour the focus of new GBR liveries to make the railway feel clearer and easier to use for passengers and also offer an easier description for staff, especially during times of disruption. The number one mission of GBR should be to create a rail network that people feel is simple, reliable, affordable and inclusive to use to therefore encourage them to use it as a regular choice of transport.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Intercity/High Speed Trains (Current examples include but not limited to LNER/EMR Intercity/Avanti/XC Voyagers) would be red.
Semi-Fast/Long Distance Trains (Current examples include but not limited to EMR Connect 360's+EMR Liverpool - Norwich/XC 170's/TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes) would be blue.
Local Vast Majority or All Station Stops/Slow trains (e.g. Northern Leeds - Nottingham, Northern Man Picc - Sheffield, EMR Crewe - Newark) would be purple.
Very Short Distance Within A City Or Metro Services (e.g. London Overground, Merseyrail, any future Bee Network for Manchester) could retain their own local branding/colour.

InterCity, InterRegio, Regional, Commuter

 

[Bletchleyite]

InterCity, InterRegio, Regional, Commuter

I'd be tempted to use "CrossCountry" for InterRegio, it's a fairly established brand which despite the TOC being awful isn't actually particularly poisoned.

Probably InterCity Highspeed for HS2 if that ever happens.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Probably InterCity Highspeed for HS2 if that ever happens.

See this is where we start to become too corporate. That makes it sound like a sub brand of a company. Intercity is simply a service designation not at company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

See this is where we start to become too corporate. That makes it sound like a sub brand of a company. Intercity is simply a service designation not at company.

Do you think InterCityExpress is too corporate? I think it's one of the best railway branding packages (the service and the brand itself) in the world, myself (though it'd be nice if they could run on time once in a while). It's just a variation of that.

 

[99009]

InterCity, InterRegio, Regional, Commuter

Essentially, yes. The colour of that train could become a clear indicator nationwide about what type of service is being offered. The colour would then make things easy for passengers to identify and remember, for example Red Train/InterCity = Fast + First Class + Kitchen/Buffet Options. Blue Train/Cross Country/InterRegio = Semi Fast + Limited First Class + Trolley. Purple Train/Regional = Slower + No First Class + No Trolley or Limited Trolley.

There's a real golden chance here for the railway industry/GBR to create liveries on the trains that make the rail network feel easier and clearer for passengers to use through the use of colour. That's why the future GBR livery or liveries are so important.