GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[P156KWJ]

165125 decided to fail at Greenford.
Word was had, and we very nearly shunted via Greenford East Jct…

That would have been extraordinary as they aren't yet cleared that far except ECS

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

That would have been extraordinary as they aren't yet cleared that far except ECS

Which would be okay for us, as we’re technically not in passenger service

 

[P156KWJ]

Which would be okay for us, as we’re technically not in passenger service

Yes you are, you are on a Class 1 operating under a passenger TSC

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Yes you are, you are on a Class 1 operating under a passenger TSC

Confirmed with the driver that we were authorised for the move - but they (sadly) got the unit out of the bay!
Bowled…

 

[P156KWJ]

Confirmed with the driver that we were authorised for the move - but they got the unit out of the bay!
Bowled…

Hence me saying it would have been extraordinary *if* it happened, but you are definitely on a passenger service (albeit unadvertised)

 

[DavidGrain]

The train was being operated by Rail Adventure for the purpose of this trip so the journey was officially a rail tour. Last year I was on a tour which actually did all three Greenford junctions so the line is passed for passenger service.

 

[Ribbleman]

Does anyone know how many D78 sets are still theoretically available to convert to additional 230s? At the start of the project it was said to be around 70 but I believe that some have since been scrapped.

 

[D365]

Does anyone know how many D78 sets are still theoretically available to convert to additional 230s? At the start of the project it was said to be around 70 but I believe that some have since been scrapped.

The workforce and supply chain have been disbanded for several years now. I would be very, very surprised if any further D78 vehicles are ever converted.

Apologies though; that doesn’t answer your theoretically question.

 

[Woods]

Does anyone know how many D78 sets are still theoretically available to convert to additional 230s? At the start of the project it was said to be around 70 but I believe that some have since been scrapped.

There are only enough Driving Motor (DM) cars, which still have their bogies, to make another 8 more Class 230s, and that includes the 3 ex-WMT units which are also now stored in the same place as the remaining D78 cars (in a field out the back of International Metals and Cable Recycling Limited, near Long Marston). Sadly (depending on your point of view), despite the technical success of 230001 and the GWR Fast Charge trial, which is due to start carrying passengers probably in July this year, it seems that GWR have no appetite for any further Fast Charge Battery 230s, even though they would be very much suitable for Thames Valley and Cornish branch lines as an interim way of improving the service offering long before new trains arrive (I say better than 15X / 16X because, as demonstrated by 230001, 230s have a better interior, better acceleration, they are quieter, zero emission at the point of use, cheaper to maintain, and require far fewer empty coaching stock miles etc). But as reported in the latest Modern Railways magazine, GWR now have their heart set on going straight into total fleet replacement of all 15X and 16X vehicles with a moreorless homogeneous fleet of new trains which will be a mixture of 25kV electric and 25kV/battery hybrid, combined with extension of the OHLE here and there. Chiltern Railways and East West Rail could well end up ordering the same type of train to create an even larger homogeneous regional fleet, which makes a lot of sense to be honest. Now whether the Treasury will authorise the funding for any of that is an entirely different matter altogether, and whether the trains will be in service this side of 2035 is debatable!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==

The workforce and supply chain have been disbanded for several years now. I would be very, very surprised if any further D78 vehicles are ever converted.

Apologies though; that doesn’t answer your theoretically question.

It wouldn't be too difficult to do further conversions as the designs and the knowledge are still retained 'in house' at GWR (by the former Vivarail Engineers now working on the Fast Charge trial) but the conversion work would have to be contracted out to the likes of UKRL, Chrysalis, Brodie Engineering, etc assuming they were actually interested in the work.

 

[John R]

I guess the Class 175 project removes any short term need for more units which more Class 230s could have partly met too.

 

[778]

I guess the Class 175 project removes any short term need for more units which more Class 230s could have partly met too.

At least 1 more needs to be converted so that there is a spare unit in case anything goes wrong.

 

[Ribbleman]

There are only enough Driving Motor (DM) cars, which still have their bogies, to make another 8 more Class 230s, and that includes the 3 ex-WMT units which are also now stored in the same place as the remaining D78 cars (in a field out the back of International Metals and Cable Recycling Limited, near Long Marston). Sadly (depending on your point of view), despite the technical success of 230001 and the GWR Fast Charge trial, which is due to start carrying passengers probably in July this year, it seems that GWR have no appetite for any further Fast Charge Battery 230s, even though they would be very much suitable for Thames Valley and Cornish branch lines as an interim way of improving the service offering long before new trains arrive (I say better than 15X / 16X because, as demonstrated by 230001, 230s have a better interior, better acceleration, they are quieter, zero emission at the point of use, cheaper to maintain, and require far fewer empty coaching stock miles etc). But as reported in the latest Modern Railways magazine, GWR now have their heart set on going straight into total fleet replacement of all 15X and 16X vehicles with a moreorless homogeneous fleet of new trains which will be a mixture of 25kV electric and 25kV/battery hybrid, combined with extension of the OHLE here and there. Chiltern Railways and East West Rail could well end up ordering the same type of train to create an even larger homogeneous regional fleet, which makes a lot of sense to be honest. Now whether the Treasury will authorise the funding for any of that is an entirely different matter altogether, and whether the trains will be in service this side of 2035 is debatable!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==


It wouldn't be too difficult to do further conversions as the designs and the knowledge are still retained 'in house' at GWR (by the former Vivarail Engineers now working on the Fast Charge trial) but the conversion work would have to be contracted out to the likes of UKRL, Chrysalis, Brodie Engineering, etc assuming they were actually interested in the work.

Many thanks.

 

[DavidGrain]

There are three in store which were purchased by GWR along with the intellectual property so I would have thought that it would now, with the knowledge gained from 230001, be worthwhile bringing those into service. The money spent by GWR is now sunk money so we are just talking about marginal cost of conversion and the installation cost of charging facilities.

 

[cactustwirly]

There are only enough Driving Motor (DM) cars, which still have their bogies, to make another 8 more Class 230s, and that includes the 3 ex-WMT units which are also now stored in the same place as the remaining D78 cars (in a field out the back of International Metals and Cable Recycling Limited, near Long Marston). Sadly (depending on your point of view), despite the technical success of 230001 and the GWR Fast Charge trial, which is due to start carrying passengers probably in July this year, it seems that GWR have no appetite for any further Fast Charge Battery 230s, even though they would be very much suitable for Thames Valley and Cornish branch lines as an interim way of improving the service offering long before new trains arrive (I say better than 15X / 16X because, as demonstrated by 230001, 230s have a better interior, better acceleration, they are quieter, zero emission at the point of use, cheaper to maintain, and require far fewer empty coaching stock miles etc). But as reported in the latest Modern Railways magazine, GWR now have their heart set on going straight into total fleet replacement of all 15X and 16X vehicles with a moreorless homogeneous fleet of new trains which will be a mixture of 25kV electric and 25kV/battery hybrid, combined with extension of the OHLE here and there. Chiltern Railways and East West Rail could well end up ordering the same type of train to create an even larger homogeneous regional fleet, which makes a lot of sense to be honest. Now whether the Treasury will authorise the funding for any of that is an entirely different matter altogether, and whether the trains will be in service this side of 2035 is debatable!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==


It wouldn't be too difficult to do further conversions as the designs and the knowledge are still retained 'in house' at GWR (by the former Vivarail Engineers now working on the Fast Charge trial) but the conversion work would have to be contracted out to the likes of UKRL, Chrysalis, Brodie Engineering, etc assuming they were actually interested in the work.

Which is arguably a more logical solution than a microfleet of clapped out tube trains.

They will need to replace the turbos off the North Downs and Basingstoke lines too

 

[Peter Sarf]

Which is arguably a more logical solution than a microfleet of clapped out tube trains.

They will need to replace the turbos off the North Downs and Basingstoke lines too

I would think the only two advantages of the 230s is they are ready more or less immediately (no new design required) and more importantly capable of being maintained at the branch they are used on so no long treks needed along a main line to the depot.

How often does 230001 need to leave the branch and go to a depot (Reading) ?.

 

[Woods]

Which is arguably a more logical solution than a microfleet of clapped out tube trains.

They will need to replace the turbos off the North Downs and Basingstoke lines too

On the microfleet point yes, fair enough, a very large homogeneous regional fleet potentially serving Thames Valley, North Downs, Oxford/Banbury local, Basingstoke, Devon and Cornwall branches, potentially even the Cotswold Line, Chiltern and EWR - makes sense.

On the allegation of 'clapped out tube trains', after nearly 10 years of the Vivarail / D-Train / Class 230 project, this is a very tired old trope now I have to say. I think if you actually knew how much of the 230s was NOT original D78, you'd be surprised at just how modern a train it is! And through all their various troubles, it has very much been the new tech which has been their problem (diesel gensets, first generation batteries on the TfW units etc). For reference the retained parts of the original D78s are as follows: bodyshell, bogies, brakes, suspension, door leaves, couplers, some of the seating (depending on configuration), grab handles (depending on configuration), cab door engines, ceiling panels, map panels. Those components / systems have hardly given any problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==

How often does 230001 need to leave the branch and go to a depot (Reading) ?.

About every 18 weeks for A exam, unless recalled for ad-hoc repairs (for example wheel turning if it develops a wheel flat in the autumn) or planned mods. The vast majority of the time it stays at West Ealing Light Maintenance Depot, where the only real maintenance is daily train prep, toilet emptying, and battery (plug-in overnight) charging.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==

There are three in store which were purchased by GWR along with the intellectual property so I would have thought that it would now, with the knowledge gained from 230001, be worthwhile bringing those into service. The money spent by GWR is now sunk money so we are just talking about marginal cost of conversion and the installation cost of charging facilities.

I personally agree with the sentiment about doing more 230s but unfortunately the cost of conversion is not insignificant. Batteries and the Traction Control Unit (power electronics) in particular are expensive and have long lead times. This may be driving GWR management and DfT to consider that they may as well just spend their money on new trains. And of course politically it will go down well because it will put work towards the global train builders with a UK train assembly facility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==

At least 1 more needs to be converted so that there is a spare unit in case anything goes wrong.

Nah, the backstop is just to revert to using a Turbo if anything goes wrong with 230001!

 

[Bob Price]

The main investment here is with the fast charging technology. There are other companies looking on here with interest. For example TfW and Merseyrail with respect to 777's being equipped with it to run to Wrexham and the Liverpool Loop. It's the technology that is the winner here, which also has applications away from the UK.

 

[cactustwirly]

I would think the only two advantages of the 230s is they are ready more or less immediately (no new design required) and more importantly capable of being maintained at the branch they are used on so no long treks needed along a main line to the depot.

How often does 230001 need to leave the branch and go to a depot (Reading) ?.

You have the issue of storage and stabling, they need to run back to Reading anyway.

Marlow has specific requirements for unit length, and the peak service uses a 2nd set which has to run empty from Reading.

The 2 car 230 would have to have a similar capacity to the 165 on the Marlow too

 

[Peter Sarf]

You have the issue of storage and stabling, they need to run back to Reading anyway.

Marlow has specific requirements for unit length, and the peak service uses a 2nd set which has to run empty from Reading.

The 2 car 230 would have to have a similar capacity to the 165 on the Marlow too

A three car 230 is technically possible, but I cannot recall if the shorter vehicles means three is short enough to replace a 2car 165 ?.

The 230s do not need to run back to Reading as often as a 165 would - no fuelling required.

 

[Prime586]

The main investment here is with the fast charging technology. There are other companies looking on here with interest. For example TfW and Merseyrail with respect to 777's being equipped with it to run to Wrexham and the Liverpool Loop. It's the technology that is the winner here, which also has applications away from the UK.

Stadler already have a fast charge technology partner that they worked with for the FLIRT AKKUs in Germany.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A three car 230 is technically possible, but I cannot recall if the shorter vehicles means three is short enough to replace a 2car 165 ?.

A 2 car 165 is 47 metres. Seating capacity 159.

A 3 car 230 would be 55 metres. Assuming the same seating capacity as the TfW units, which are 3 cars, seating capacity 130 but a lot more standing room.

...so not much difference between them.

 

[cactustwirly]

A 2 car 165 is 47 metres. Seating capacity 159.

A 3 car 230 would be 55 metres. Assuming the same seating capacity as the TfW units, which are 3 cars, seating capacity 130 but a lot more standing room.

...so not much difference between them.

How long is the Bourne End platform

 

[Fincra5]

How long is the Bourne End platform

Not long enough according to the Sectional Appendix

 

[cactustwirly]

View attachment 178947

Not long enough according to the Sectional Appendix

That's what I thought

 

[The exile]

If those distances are correct it’s 100-ish metres from GF to buffer stop.

 

[JN114]

If those distances are correct it’s 100-ish metres from GF to buffer stop.

The ground frame unfortunately is a long way off the end of the platform

 

[DavidGrain]

Stadler already have a fast charge technology partner that they worked with for the FLIRT AKKUs in Germany.

And Stadler have the maintenance contract for the TfW 230s at Birkenhead North

 

[The exile]

The ground frame unfortunately is a long way off the end of the platform

Platforms have been known to be extended!

 

[TurboMan]

Stadler already have a fast charge technology partner that they worked with for the FLIRT AKKUs in Germany.

That sort of charging system uses a high-voltage feed - which is great if you already have high-voltage supply, but very expensive to install if you don't.

The trial at West Ealing takes a very different approach, using indirect charging from lineside battery banks that are trickle charged when the train is not being charged. The beauty of this is that you don't need a high-voltage supply - the battery banks at West Ealing are fed from the same secondary substation that supplies all the houses on the same street (Manor Road). That means that the system can be installed anywhere that there is a bog-standard LV (3 phase 415V) supply, with the lineside equipment being manufactured off-site and installed in a very short space of time. That makes for a much more attractive business case than having to link up to the HV network.

 

[AdamWW]

That sort of charging system uses a high-voltage feed - which is great if you already have high-voltage supply, but very expensive to install if you don't.

The trial at West Ealing takes a very different approach, using indirect charging from lineside battery banks that are trickle charged when the train is not being charged. The beauty of this is that you don't need a high-voltage supply - the battery banks at West Ealing are fed from the same secondary substation that supplies all the houses on the same street (Manor Road). That means that the system can be installed anywhere that there is a bog-standard LV (3 phase 415V) supply, with the lineside equipment being manufactured off-site and installed in a very short space of time. That makes for a much more attractive business case than having to link up to the HV network.

Most informative - thanks!

Is this something that is being pioneered in the UK then?