Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[chargesmith]

It appears that all Treherbert, Aberdare, and Merthyr services are being run with class 756s today — so only electric trains north of Pontypridd.

So 150s only on Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay trains, which will hopefully start to see 398s in the Summer. Are there any plans to run 3 car 756s in service on TAM to get them ready for Caerphilly / Coryton to Penarth?

 

[Cardiff123]

So 150s only on Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay trains, which will hopefully start to see 398s in the Summer. Are there any plans to run 3 car 756s in service on TAM to get them ready for Caerphilly / Coryton to Penarth?

Wrong, there's plenty of 150s still working Caerphilly - Barry Island & Bridgend services, more in fact since the Rhymney - Caerphilly closure. Recently 231s have been taken off these services and moved to the TAM lines.

With no indication that mainline driver training has started on 231s (unless someone knows otherwise) the 150s will be hanging around on Rhymney /Caerphilly - Barry - Bridgend services for a long while yet.

 

[Markdvdman]

I was on a 3 Car 756 to Merthyr last week actually. Normally 4 car but last week was unique with the bridge issue to be fair!

 

[tfw756rider]

I was on a 3 Car 756 to Merthyr last week actually.

Which one? I've only known 756007 to have been in passenger service so far out of the 3-car 756s, and barely at that.

 

[Markdvdman]

It was that one indeed

 

[tfw756rider]

It was that one indeed

Ah thanks

 

[Rhydgaled]

Hallelujah. Long overdue but great news. Now we just need to get the right electric trains serving the line.

756s are TfW's only 'electric' trains aren't they? Tram-trains are not trains (I know they're not really trams either, that's why they're called tram-trains). Given that 23m vehicles aren't cleared north of Taffs Well, I would say that (with the possible exception of the 231s if and when they are converted to bi-mode) as far as TfW's fleet is concerned the 756s are the best choice of stock for Aberdare, Merthyr and Treherbert (and the only TfW stock I would want to see at any of those 3 places).

 

[56xx]

756s are TfW's only 'electric' trains aren't they? Tram-trains are not trains (I know they're not really trams either, that's why they're called tram-trains). Given that 23m vehicles aren't cleared north of Taffs Well, I would say that (with the possible exception of the 231s if and when they are converted to bi-mode) as far as TfW's fleet is concerned the 756s are the best choice of stock for Aberdare, Merthyr and Treherbert (and the only TfW stock I would want to see at any of those 3 places).

Totally Agree

 

[Bob Price]

Unlikely to happen however. Abandoning a fleet of units built for a specific purpose is not likely. There are enough 756's to run the Rhumney, VOG and Penarth services which is what they were bought for. The 231's will go where they were bought for so the 197's can then move to the services they were bought for and the 150's can be withdrawn.

Also I must have missed the announcement that the 231's are to be converted to bi mode. When was that made?

 

[tfw756rider]

Also I must have missed the announcement that the 231's are to be converted to bi mode. When was that made?

I don't think it's definite, but I believe it's being considered. Googling "class 231 hybrid" will bring up results from January 2025.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

756s are TfW's only 'electric' trains aren't they? Tram-trains are not trains (I know they're not really trams either, that's why they're called tram-trains). Given that 23m vehicles aren't cleared north of Taffs Well, I would say that (with the possible exception of the 231s if and when they are converted to bi-mode) as far as TfW's fleet is concerned the 756s are the best choice of stock for Aberdare, Merthyr and Treherbert (and the only TfW stock I would want to see at any of those 3 places).

Oh dear, you’ve completely missed the point I was making (and the humour mainly), I don’t know why I bother

 

[positron]

Also I must have missed the announcement that the 231's are to be converted to bi mode. When was that made?

It was presented as an option to (I think) the TfW board relatively recently. The discussion was redacted so we don't know for sure it's been approved but it seems very likely. Iirc they had to make a decision by the end of this month. Probably won't announce it for a while though even if it was approved.

 

[Markdvdman]

756007 is running again from Cardiff at 4:43pm to Aberdare. Wonder when the other 3 cars will be out?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Unlikely to happen however. Abandoning a fleet of units built for a specific purpose is not likely. There are enough 756's to run the Rhumney, VOG and Penarth services which is what they were bought for. The 231's will go where they were bought for so the 197's can then move to the services they were bought for and the 150's can be withdrawn.

I'm not suggesting that any of the 756s, 231s or 398s would be abandoned. However, I assume that the order quantity of 71 units from Stadler (35 FLIRTs and 36 tram-trains) did not include any allowance for Metro extensions (such as the Cardiff Bay to Central link and the 'Burns commission' stations) which were unfunded at the time. They will therefore need to increase the fleet if and when any such Metro expansions are delivered; my hope is that they will not order any more tram-trains but instead order more heavy rail bi-mode/tri-mode stock and cascade/reallocate the existing fleet (including the class 398s, even if some of them may technically not exist yet - not sure if any are still under construction) internally within TfW as appropriate.

Also I must have missed the announcement that the 231's are to be converted to bi mode. When was that made?

It was presented as an option to (I think) the TfW board relatively recently. The discussion was redacted so we don't know for sure it's been approved but it seems very likely. Iirc they had to make a decision by the end of this month. Probably won't announce it for a while though even if it was approved.

There's a reason I wrote "if and when" rather than just "when". TfW have confirmed that there's an option to convert the 231s but there was still no commitment to proceed as of 20th March 2025.

 

[Philip Roberts]

I'm not suggesting that any of the 756s, 231s or 398s would be abandoned. However, I assume that the order quantity of 71 units from Stadler (35 FLIRTs and 36 tram-trains) did not include any allowance for Metro extensions (such as the Cardiff Bay to Central link and the 'Burns commission' stations) which were unfunded at the time. They will therefore need to increase the fleet if and when any such Metro expansions are delivered; my hope is that they will not order any more tram-trains but instead order more heavy rail bi-mode/tri-mode stock and cascade/reallocate the existing fleet (including the class 398s, even if some of them may technically not exist yet - not sure if any are still under construction) internally within TfW as appropriate.


There's a reason I wrote "if and when" rather than just "when". TfW have confirmed that there's an option to convert the 231s but there was still no commitment to proceed as of 20th March 2025.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the £100m for phase 1a of Cardiff Crossrail includes them buying additional 398s. I'll see if I can find it

 

[tigermonstera]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the £100m for phase 1a of Cardiff Crossrail includes them buying additional 398s. I'll see if I can find it

It's in the non-technical summary of the outline business case, here.

Page 16 explains that:

Cost estimates for Phase 1A are currently anticipated at £104.4m. This figure includes:

● project design and other costs of £19.4m
● additional contingency of £14.7m (20% for infrastructure costs, 1% for rolling stock)
● provision for an additional 3 tram-train vehicles

The table below this states that £17.3 million of the Phase 1a budget has been allocated to rolling stock.

Page 20 also states that:

Phase 1A of Crossrail requires two vehicles for core operation with one spare vehicle [...] There may be scope within the existing [South Wales Metro] order to also accommodate the provision of the ‘spare’ vehicle for Crossrail Phase 1A. Crossrail Phase 1B, extending to Pierhead Street, would require a further additional vehicle (over and above 1A).

If we're talking about future unit allocation, it might be worth moving to speculation.

 

[Philip Roberts]

It's in the non-technical summary of the outline business case, here.

Page 16 explains that:

The table below this states that £17.3 million of the Phase 1a budget has been allocated to rolling stock.

Page 20 also states that:


If we're talking about future unit allocation, it might be worth moving to speculation.

Brill. Thank you!

 

[Cardiff123]

I'm not suggesting that any of the 756s, 231s or 398s would be abandoned. However, I assume that the order quantity of 71 units from Stadler (35 FLIRTs and 36 tram-trains) did not include any allowance for Metro extensions (such as the Cardiff Bay to Central link and the 'Burns commission' stations) which were unfunded at the time. They will therefore need to increase the fleet if and when any such Metro expansions are delivered; my hope is that they will not order any more tram-trains but instead order more heavy rail bi-mode/tri-mode stock and cascade/reallocate the existing fleet (including the class 398s, even if some of them may technically not exist yet - not sure if any are still under construction) internally within TfW as appropriate.


There's a reason I wrote "if and when" rather than just "when". TfW have confirmed that there's an option to convert the 231s but there was still no commitment to proceed as of 20th March 2025.

The 398s are not going anywhere. If anything, there will be more of them on the Core Valley Lines & Cardiff Metro network in future, not less. Caerphilly / Coryton to Penarth may well go over to 398 operation in future, especially if there is eventually electrification to Penarth.

Unless there's electrification to Barry in future, it's unlikely 398s will ever run to Barry or Bridgend via the Vale.

 

[56xx]

231 001 is booked for a couple of passenger runs today to Bridgend via the VoG line according to RTT. I think it may be a first.

 

[Caaardiff]

However, I assume that the order quantity of 71 units from Stadler (35 FLIRTs and 36 tram-trains) did not include any allowance for Metro extensions (such as the Cardiff Bay to Central link and the 'Burns commission' stations) which were unfunded at the time. They will therefore need to increase the fleet if and when any such Metro expansions are delivered; my hope is that they will not order any more tram-trains but instead order more heavy rail bi-mode/tri-mode stock and cascade/reallocate the existing fleet (including the class 398s, even if some of them may technically not exist yet - not sure if any are still under construction) internally within TfW as appropriate.

Agree with this. I doubt TFW bought the current number of 398's on the basis that Cardiff Crossrail might just happen. I'd imagine they'd need more in the future, but is Taffs Well big enough to accomodate more 398's?

The lack of toilet issue has grown greater coverage from the media again lately. There's many arguments for and against. I do think the 756's are better suited to the longer journeys up to the very top of the Valleys.
I do wonder if the 398 usage will be switched to cover shorter journeys on the network with some possible changes to the routings if the battery power isn't sufficient.
Pontypridd - Cardiff
City line
Coryton-Penarth
Caerphilly - Cardiff

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all of the 231's never make it onto the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham lines. The fuel range is terrible, hence probably the investigations on converting them.

 

[Cardiff123]

231 001 is booked for a couple of passenger runs today to Bridgend via the VoG line according to RTT. I think it may be a first.

That happened earlier in the week on RTT, it'll be swapped at Cardiff Central for a 150

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agree with this. I doubt TFW bought the current number of 398's on the basis that Cardiff Crossrail might just happen. I'd imagine they'd need more in the future, but is Taffs Well big enough to accomodate more 398's?

The lack of toilet issue has grown greater coverage from the media again lately. There's many arguments for and against. I do think the 756's are better suited to the longer journeys up to the very top of the Valleys.
I do wonder if the 398 usage will be switched to cover shorter journeys on the network with some possible changes to the routings if the battery power isn't sufficient.
Pontypridd - Cardiff
City line
Coryton-Penarth
Caerphilly - Cardiff

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all of the 231's never make it onto the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham lines. The fuel range is terrible, hence probably the investigations on converting them.

The Aberdare/Merthyr/Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services definitely don’t need a FLIRT.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Aberdare/Merthyr/Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay services definitely don’t need a FLIRT.

Isn't the section between Queen Street and Cardiff Bay planned to switch over to light-rail style signalling at some point, meaning that FLIRTs would be unable to go to Cardiff Bay in future? My view is that there should be no through services between Cardiff Bay and any of the heads of the valleys stations (ie. currently Aberdare, Treherbert, Rhymney and Merthyr Tyfil) and that those should be exclusively served by heavy rail services (not necessarily FLIRTs, but the FLIRTs are currently TfW's only trains capable of electric operation).

The 398s are not going anywhere. If anything, there will be more of them on the Core Valley Lines & Cardiff Metro network in future, not less.

As I said above, I'm talking about an internal cascade within TfW. I agree that there is absolutely no question of the 398s disappearing from the Cardiff Metro - it's the details of how they would be best-deployed within the overall Metro network as it expands that I am concerned about. However, tigermonstera has pointed out (correctly) that is off-topic so I'll leave it there for now.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Just curious if anyone knows what use the bay platforms at CardiffQS and Pontypridd will be once the metro is completed? It's my understanding that all Cardiff Bay services will eventually continue up to each head of the valleys (bar Rhymni) negating the need for the bays.

 

[John R]

Isn't the section between Queen Street and Cardiff Bay planned to switch over to light-rail style signalling at some point, meaning that FLIRTs would be unable to go to Cardiff Bay in future? My view is that there should be no through services between Cardiff Bay and any of the heads of the valleys stations (ie. currently Aberdare, Treherbert, Rhymney and Merthyr Tyfil) and that those should be exclusively served by heavy rail services (not necessarily FLIRTs, but the FLIRTs are currently TfW's only trains capable of electric operation).

As I said above, I'm talking about an internal cascade within TfW. I agree that there is absolutely no question of the 398s disappearing from the Cardiff Metro - it's the details of how they would be best-deployed within the overall Metro network as it expands that I am concerned about. However, tigermonstera has pointed out (correctly) that is off-topic so I'll leave it there for now.

What you’re suggesting, (assuming you’re not proposing cutting back frequency from the current intention) is that, at the very least, each TAM line would be served by 4x3 car heavy rail units each hour. (Some would have to be 4 car units too.).

That would be a hugely expensive overprovision, just to provide toilets.

 

[tfw756rider]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all of the 231's never make it onto the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham lines. The fuel range is terrible, hence probably the investigations on converting them.

If the 231s do get converted to "757s" (or whatever), wouldn't they have to be diagrammed in such a way that all the ones on a given day would alternate between Cardiff/Cheltenham services and Newport/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg services, to make sure that they'd actually save on some diesel fuel by doing enough 25-minute pan-up runs between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction?

 

[Trainbike46]

If the 231s do get converted to "757s" (or whatever), wouldn't they have to be diagrammed in such a way that all the ones on a given day would alternate between Cardiff/Cheltenham services and Newport/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg services, to make sure that they'd actually save on some diesel fuel by doing enough 25-minute pan-up runs between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction?

presumably the 231s would become 755s if turned into bimodes and the class number is changed.

 

[tfw756rider]

presumably the 231s would become 755s if turned into bimodes and the class number is changed.

Perhaps 755/5s but we should probably leave it there in this subforum

 

[Rhydgaled]

What you’re suggesting, (assuming you’re not proposing cutting back frequency from the current intention) is that, at the very least, each TAM line would be served by 4x3 car heavy rail units each hour. (Some would have to be 4 car units too.).

That would be a hugely expensive overprovision, just to provide toilets.

Isn't Rhymney still planned to be served by four 756s per hour? Why should the TAM lines be served any differently to Rhymney?

presumably the 231s would become 755s if turned into bimodes and the class number is changed.

231s, 755s, 756s all have different numbers of doors, otherwise I would agree it would make sense for 231s with pantographs to become 755s or 756s depending on what (if any) changes are made inside the power pack module vehicle (aka 'thrash cupboard').

 

[pokemonsuper9]

231s, 756s all have different numbers of doors,

I thought both TfW FLIRTs were 2-1-(1)-2 doors per carriage (745 and 755 being all 1s, 777 being 1-2-2-1)? But with the 756 being a tri-mode, a 231 with a pantograph would be closer to a 755 than a 756.