LNER 225 Shortening/Overnight Testing

[hexagon789]

I remain to be convinced that losing 70 tons will make much difference. They will still pull away from a stand much more slowly. I'd rather keep the extra 100+ seats.

82 tonnes - Mk4s are heavier than Mk3s (which are about 33 tonnes on average)

 

[Bald Rick]

I remain to be convinced that losing 70 tons will make much difference. They will still pull away from a stand much more slowly. I'd rather keep the extra 100+ seats.

You don’t have to be convinced, as the facts speak for themselves. 2 x Mark IVs are just over 80 tonnes, removed from a set that weighs 485 tonnes, ie a 16.5% reduction.

Improves power to weight ratio from 9.7kW/tonne to 11.6kW/ tonne (using starting power of a 91).

A 9 car 801 is 11.6kW/tonne (the best power to weight of all LNERs 80x fleet).

Looks like LNER know what they are doing?

 

[duffield]

I thought they only ran Leeds-London now?

I've been on a York terminating 91/MK4 service in the last few weeks. Picks up at Grantham which is handy for me.

This one:

(Link is to Realtime trains details for 1N81 0906 London Kings Cross to York for 28th April 2025 showing class 91 + MK4 allocation)

Realtime Trains | 1N81 0906 London Kings Cross to York | 28/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 1N81 0906 departure from London Kings Cross to York on 28/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[800001]

I thought they only ran Leeds-London now?

LNER run To York twice a day with Mk4s.

 

[The Planner]

I remain to be convinced that losing 70 tons will make much difference. They will still pull away from a stand much more slowly. I'd rather keep the extra 100+ seats.

The same thing occured with HST and Voyager paths for XC.

 

[MontyP]

How is it 'much improved'? It's been reduced to half-hourly instead of quarter-hourly off-peak except Saturdays.

And most of those services stop at small stations like Lenzie, Croydon, Bishopbriggs, Linlithgow. In the old push/pull days the half hourly fast services only stopped at Falkirk High

 

[AMD]

And most of those services stop at small stations like Lenzie, Croydon

Croydon certainly won't help the running times between Edinburgh & Glasgow

 

[InOban]

If you look at station data you will find that Croy is an exceptionally busy station, effectively Cumbernauld North and busier than any station in that fine town.

 

[YorksLad12]

I've been on a York terminating 91/MK4 service in the last few weeks. Picks up at Grantham which is handy for me.

LNER run To York twice a day with Mk4s.

Thanks both.

 

[MontyP]

Croydon certainly won't help the running times between Edinburgh & Glasgow

Autocorrect! Clearly doesn't know about Croy

Kind of inevitable that thought isn't it? Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds and Manchester Airport / Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds are slower now than in 2015. The Greenwich line and a few other Southeastern Metro stations receive a less frequent service than then. Manchester - London, Nottingham - London and Liverpool - London are all several minutes slower typically than they were then. Peak services between London and Brighton or London and Dorking or London and Shoeburyness all slower. Brigg (Saturdays) or Gainsborough - Sheffield, with express Sheffield - Lincoln abandoned. Reading - Birmingham, Reading - Southampton, York - Doncaster - Sheffield, several services missing. Newcastle - Glasgow nearly all the direct services gone. And so on and so forth. Loads of people have had their journeys short changed compared to 6-10 years ago and that's quite deliberate. The current government has continued this policy.

Cuts on the Waterloo suburbans (Hounslow loop, Worcester Park/Epsom services), reduced frequencies on the lines out of Bradford F Sq to add to the list (although there is probably a separate thread for this!)

 

[DanNCL]

I have it on good authority that the Mk4 sets are being shortened to 2+7 for the Dec 25 TT along with one service a day to Newcastle being formed of a 2+7 Mk4.

Overnight testing of 2+7 Mk4s commences “soon” so keep an eye out for overnight 5Zxx paths along the ECML originating from Neville Hill

Why does it need testing? 2+7 Mark 4 sets have ran many times before in passenger service, including one set for an extended period in 2020.

Durham and Darlington as well wouldn’t it? As this will be the Kings Cross to Newcastle stopper service? (Unless I’m mistaken)

The KX-Newcastle hourly stoppers call at Northallerton as well.

Newcastle, Durham and Darlington are the stations where dispatch staff would need training again. Northallerton is self dispatch by the guard iirc.

Short term pain - it means once the new CAF Class 897 units arrive in 2027 they can be used, performance wise, as a single fleet with the Azumas, without attempting another re-write to accelerate the slower path kept for IC225s. Plus if the whole timetable is on standard timings it means in disruption a IC225 can be used on an Azuma diagram without performance impacts. One of the First Class coaches will obviously be going and the IC225s have excess First Class capacity compared to a 9-car Azuma, so it's managing the loss of a Standard Class coach as well where the impact comes. Also, if some of the current 5-car Azuma services become 7-car IC225 services then that's actually an uplift in capacity!

It's impossible for me to tell what and where on the route the issues caused by the inferior performance are given that the entire December 2025 ECML timetable and unit diagrams aren't publicly available yet, but it just seems odd that there isn't at least one train per hour from West Yorkshire to London that is pathed for a full length or even 8 carriage IC225.

If this scenario was forseable for a few years then it'd be my preference for shortened IC225s to be used on the additional Newcastle services in place of 9/10 carriage Azumas. Yes it'd be a pain to train all the relevant staff to work these services, but would that really be a worse trade off than shortening Leeds to London services again?

It seems like we've been through all the pain of implementing this new timetable for the West Yorkshire services to arguably be in a worse position than when all services were worked by IC225s and HSTs.

A guess here - another consideration for the Newcastle workings could be that at some point Neville Hill will be blocked for an extended period which will if I’m not mistaken leave whichever of the 91+Mark 4 or 897s fleets LNER have at the time having to go to Heaton instead.

It would also be my preference to see 91s concentrated on the Newcastle route but for an entirely different and selfish reason

 

[dodecahedron67]

Why does it need testing? 2+7 Mark 4 sets have ran many times before in passenger service, including one set for an extended period in 2020.

It’s to do with PTI testing for disabled access etc as I understand it, as the wheelchair spaces will be moving location along the platform as the stop boards are not changing, 2+7s will stop where the 2+9s do

 

[Starmill]

Cuts on the Waterloo suburbans (Hounslow loop, Worcester Park/Epsom services), reduced frequencies on the lines out of Bradford F Sq to add to the list (although there is probably a separate thread for this!)

Such a thread would get rather long, I fear. But you're right it's probably off topic here.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Rumour has it the LNER InterCity 225/91 sets will be shortened beyond December 2025, while looking on RTT for things to see I stumbled on this interesting LNER diagram...

Realtime Trains | 5Z91 0030 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z91 0030 departure from Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Z92 0409 Peterborough to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z92 0409 departure from Peterborough to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Apologies if already being discussed elsewhere, felt it warranted its own discussion away from 2025 TT discussion thread

 

[800Travel]

Rumour has it the LNER InterCity 225/91 sets will be shortened beyond December 2025, while looking on RTT for things to see I stumbled on this interesting LNER diagram...

Realtime Trains | 5Z91 0030 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z91 0030 departure from Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Z92 0409 Peterborough to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z92 0409 departure from Peterborough to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Apologies if already being discussed elsewhere, felt it warranted its own discussion away from 2025 TT discussion thread

Interesting!

Guessing it was this part you're flagging

On the links you sent

Pathed as Electric locomotive, trailing load 330 tonnes

vs

On normal links

Pathed as Electric locomotive, trailing load 410 tonnes

 

[AndrewE]

Why would they be doing this? Maybe just to see what timings to use on shortened sets (DFT reducing the amount of stock on hire?) There aren't big areas of the trunk network with lots of empty trains that I have noticed.
Or do the current sets have problems keeping ahead of the Azumas?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would they be doing this? Maybe just to see what timings to use on shortened sets (DFT reducing the amount of stock on hire?) There aren't big areas of the trunk network with lots of empty trains that I have noticed.
Or do the current sets have problems keeping ahead of the Azumas?

It’s all been flagged up years ago, in a 2016 track access application. The original idea was to retain a small number of short sets and concentrate them on Kings Cross to Edinburgh fast services.

It was discussed at length a couple of weeks in the Dec 2025 timetable thread, and is to give the short sets the same acceleration as the 800/801.

The discussion starts here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2025-east-coast-timetable.277864/page-12#post-7264702

 

[AndrewE]

It’s all been flagged up years ago, in a 2016 track access application. It was discussed at length a couple of weeks in the Dec 2025 timetable thread, and is to give the short sets the same acceleration as the 800/801.

The discussion starts here, (I’ll add the link)

Thanks

 

[AnonKerman]

Why would they be doing this? Maybe just to see what timings to use on shortened sets (DFT reducing the amount of stock on hire?) There aren't big areas of the trunk network with lots of empty trains that I have noticed.
Or do the current sets have problems keeping ahead of the Azumas?

An LNER guy told me recently that they were planning to use shortened 225s on the york Newcastle runs, could this be related ?

 

[800001]

An LNER guy told me recently that they were planning to use shortened 225s on the york Newcastle runs, could this be related ?

It’s planned for one service Kings Cross to Newcastle and I believe rest on Leeds - Kings Cross

 

[leedstraindude]

They’re losing a first class coach and a standard coach.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Interesting!

Guessing it was this part you're flagging

On the links you sent


vs

On normal links

Yup, assume the missing weight is from a loss of Mk4s but could be for something else entirely. Maybe I'll go on a little late night walk to have a look

 

[LondonerTravel]

With the spare coaches from shortening the existing fleet. Is this to create more sets ?

 

[swt_passenger]

With the spare coaches from shortening the existing fleet. Is this to create more sets ?

No, the sole purpose of this change is to produce a small number of short sets, (six?), that can match 800/801 timings for the Dec 2025 timetable. Anything about using spare carriages is just the usual speculation.

 

[CDM Transport]

It’s planned for one service Kings Cross to Newcastle and I believe rest on Leeds - Kings Cross

Would that mean the York - London and West Yorkshire services would be stopped?

Would anyone have any info on what time the run up and return of the working from Newcastle will be? I've heard the northbound will be leaving LKX at 14:30.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Realtime Trains | 5Z91 0030 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z91 0030 departure from Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Seems I was right. Shame I couldn't get out to see it in the end, am sure more overnight testing will take place?
Anyone manage to get a picture?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Realtime Trains | 5Z91 0030 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough | 17/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z91 0030 departure from Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Peterborough on 17/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Seems I was right. Shame I couldn't get out to see it in the end, am sure more overnight testing will take place?
Anyone manage to get a picture?

No pictures but I saw my good friend at LNER that I found out about these from at 0530 this morning at Leeds station after he’d been up all night doing the tests. Seemed to go alright from what I could gleam

 

[D365]

Why does it need testing? 2+7 Mark 4 sets have ran many times before in passenger service, including one set for an extended period in 2020.

It’s to do with PTI testing for disabled access etc as I understand it,

And to validate the performance modelling.

With the spare coaches from shortening the existing fleet. Is this to create more sets ?

The ’spare’ coaches will not be reused by LNER.

 

[Gordonman]

Back out this evening on the Leeds Northwest Triangle

5Z25 NL - BDQ
5Z26 BDQ - Leeds
5Z27 Leeds - Skipton
5Z28 Skipton - NL

91119 and a shortened NL15

 

[yorksrob]

Apologies if this has been said before - does this mean that all the sets are being shortened, including those on the Leeds services ?

Also, would this still be required if the Mk4's were just staying on the Leeds runs as at present ?