Introduction of mk 3 stock on WCML

[62484GlenLyon]

I see in the May edition of Rail Express magazine that the 12th May was the 50th anniversary of the introduction of mark 3 stock on WCML services. Can anybody let me know, please, what were the initial services worked? Thank you.

 

[hexagon789]

I see in the May edition of Rail Express magazine that the 12th May was the 50th anniversary of the introduction of mark 3 stock on WCML services. Can anybody let me know, please, what were the initial services worked? Thank you.

4 diagrams, two each Euston to Liverpool and Euston to Manchester.

0750 SX EUS - LIV
1104 SX LIV - EUS
1450 SX EUS - LIV
1804 SX LIV - EUS

0805 EUS - MAN
1110 MAN - EUS
1455 EUS - MAN
1812 MAN - EUS

0804 LIV - EUS
1150 EUS - LIV
1504 LIV - EUS
1830 EUS - LIV

0834 MAN - EUS
1155 EUS - MAN
1550 SX / 1512 SO MAN - EUS
1925 EUS - MAN

Each set was formed:
5 TSO
RKB*
4 FO
BG*

(*Mk1 vehicles)

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I had a day trip from Manchester to Stoke and back to sample them shortly after they were introduced. I remember being impressed by their ride quality, sheer length (seen to good effect on the curve at Cheadle Hulme) and their rather vivid seat upholstery - bright blue in 2nd, orange in 1st! The big controversy was the non-alignment of windows and seats in 2nd and the smelly brakes had yet to be fixed. Why, oh why did they not build a kitchen-car - the Mk1 RKBs were such an anachronism (and bloomin' rough-riding)? Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

 

[hexagon789]

I had a day trip from Manchester to Stoke and back to sample them shortly after they were introduced. I remember being impressed by their ride quality, sheer length (seen to good effect on the curve at Cheadle Hulme) and their rather vivid seat upholstery - bright blue in 2nd, orange in 1st! The big controversy was the non-alignment of windows and seats in 2nd and the smelly brakes had yet to be fixed. Why, oh why did they not build a kitchen-car - the Mk1 RKBs were such an anachronism (and bloomin' rough-riding)? Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

The Mk3 restaurant buffet cars weren't ready yet I assume, I don't think they appeared until 1979? Though I'm not sure whether they were planned from the outset or an afterthought.

I think part of the issue was changing dining habits, which manifested in the very early alteration to GWML 253 HST set catering arrangements.

 

[Helvellyn]

Why, oh why did they not build a kitchen-car - the Mk1 RKBs were such an anachronism (and bloomin' rough-riding)? Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

Possibly just as well they didn't because given the Mk 3A vehicles were delivered before the first WR HSTs we'd likely have seen RUKs (Restaurant Kitchen Unclassified) and RSBs (Buffet Second) built resulting in an over provision of catering, whereas what was built were RUBs (Restaurant Buffet Unclassified).

 

[AY1975]

I had a day trip from Manchester to Stoke and back to sample them shortly after they were introduced. I remember being impressed by their ride quality, sheer length (seen to good effect on the curve at Cheadle Hulme) and their rather vivid seat upholstery - bright blue in 2nd, orange in 1st! The big controversy was the non-alignment of windows and seats in 2nd and the smelly brakes had yet to be fixed. Why, oh why did they not build a kitchen-car - the Mk1 RKBs were such an anachronism (and bloomin' rough-riding)? Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

As I recall another design flaw with the West Coast Main Line Mark 3s was that as built the unidirectional seats in 2nd class had no pull-down tables on the back of the seat in front, unlike the HSTs. I don't think this was corrected until their first refurbishment in the mid 1980s. In as-built condition the Mark 3s had mostly facing bays but with the odd pair of unidirectional seats in 2nd class which meant that the seats no longer lined up with the windows.

I would guess that when the WCML Mark 3s were built it was still thought that most passengers taking refreshments in the buffet car would consume them in the buffet, whereas by the time the HSTs were being built it was realised that the trend was towards taking stuff back to your seat (see also this thread on the change from proper crockery to disposable cups in buffet cars: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...use-of-proper-crockery-in-buffet-cars.276510/)

 

[Rescars]

I had a day trip from Manchester to Stoke and back to sample them shortly after they were introduced. I remember being impressed by their ride quality, sheer length (seen to good effect on the curve at Cheadle Hulme) and their rather vivid seat upholstery - bright blue in 2nd, orange in 1st! The big controversy was the non-alignment of windows and seats in 2nd and the smelly brakes had yet to be fixed. Why, oh why did they not build a kitchen-car - the Mk1 RKBs were such an anachronism (and bloomin' rough-riding)? Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

IIRC although there were no Mark 2 catering vehicles, there were always plans for Mark 3s, athougn the design specifications went through a number of changes. Meanwile the RKBs became increasingly dated with propane fuelled stoves, hot water boilers etc. No clever stuff powered by the train line like microwaves until the Mark 3s appeared eventually. The problem was finding the optimum layout to cope with a huge demand for at-seat service of breakfast duing the working week, but then mostly buffet business for the rest of the day and at weekends.

Being picky about "kitchen cars", I am not sure there were ever plans to produce a Mark 3 RK. A Mark 1 RK (which had no buffet facilities) could easily produce 224 sit down meals at one sitting (provided there were sufficient dining saloons coupled each side of it) - a terrific feat of catering sadly seldom called for apart from high days and holidays (aka special party workings).

 

[eastwestdivide]

In as-built condition the Mark 3s had mostly facing bays but with the odd pair of unidirectional seats in 2nd class which meant that the seats no longer lined up with the windows

Mostly down to using the same bodyshell for 1st and 2nd, with window spacing set for 1st seat pitch. 1st class bays lined up with the windows throughout.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Little did I realise that the HST derivatives would still be in services 50yrs later!

Doesn't Chiltern still use loco hauled mark 3s ?

 

[hexagon789]

Doesn't Chiltern still use loco hauled mark 3s ?

And GWR on the Night Riviera.

Mostly down to using the same bodyshell for 1st and 2nd, with window spacing set for 1st seat pitch. 1st class bays lined up with the windows throughout.

Or in Ireland, they just used the same layout originally.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Doesn't Chiltern still use loco hauled mark 3s ?

They certainly do; and here's a Marylebone to Birmingham set running Wednesday last week.

 

[jfollows]

In 1977 I used to go home from school on 1A70 17:12 Manchester-Euston, so clearly later than the introductory diagrams mentioned above; I only moved house to Bollington in December 1976 so although I’d observed the Mark 3 stock before then I only used it between Manchester and Stockport.

I remember the new train smell and ensuring I got on board well before departure time to get a window seat with a good view.

 

[norbitonflyer]

And GWR on the Night Riviera.

Quite so, although (other than the lounge cars) they are not the same coaches as the ones used on the LMR daytime services

 

[hexagon789]

Quite so, although (other than the lounge cars) they are not the same coaches as the ones used on the LMR daytime services

Very true but they are the only other hauled Mk3s in ordinary service now.

 

[Harpo]

Meanwile the RKBs became increasingly dated with propane fuelled stoves, hot water boilers etc. No clever stuff powered by the train line like microwaves until the Mark 3s appeared eventually.

Anglia’s RMBs got a power lead hook-up at the start of the 90s. It tapped the MA of selected mk2s that were modified with a connector lead.

The mods, done at Wolverton, powered chiller cabinets meeting changed food storage regs for filled sandwiches.

The decline in on-train catering was shown by the cascading of mk3 restaurant cars from the WCML to Anglia just a few years later and years before non-catering mk3s followed.

 

[Springs Branch]

I had a day trip from Manchester to Stoke and back to sample them shortly after they were introduced. I remember being impressed by their ride quality, sheer length (seen to good effect on the curve at Cheadle Hulme) and their rather vivid seat upholstery - bright blue in 2nd, orange in 1st! The big controversy was the non-alignment of windows and seats in 2nd and the smelly brakes had yet to be fixed.

I did the same thing when they were brand new (although being an impecunious student only managed Piccadilly to Macclesfield and back) and had exactly the same first impressions - even down to the "Wow, these coaches really are long" moment passing Cheadle Hulme.

The only other thing I noted was the automatically-opening internal doors between the saloon & vestibule, activated by some sort of foot treadle under the carpet IIRC. "These won't keep working for long", I thought at the time, and I think I was correct. Modern Railways soon had reports of frequent failures of the opening mechanism and luggage-carrying passengers having to struggle with malfunctioning doors manually.

When more Mk.3s had been deployed onto the WCML - maybe in 1976 or 77 - one set ended up working a MAN-EUS/EUS-GLC/GLC-Manchester Victoria diagram. Since the Mk.3 stock was based at Longsight, and this was well before the Windsor Link, the evening 1M40 arrival into Victoria was dragged back to the Ordsall Lane area (possibly by the Victoria pilot loco), then reversed and proceeded via Castlefield Jn. and Oxford Road home to Longsight. Possibly there was another roster covering the morning Man. Vic to Glasgow direct (non-portion) train which then formed a GLC-EUS service?

I mention this because the train of modern, shiny, lengthy new Mk.3 carriages (BG & buffet excepted) always looked very out of place passing the forest of semaphore signals around Bolton East, or amongst the 2-car Cravens and BRCW DMUs belching diesel fumes at shabby old Victoria.

 

[yorksrob]

Its a pity they got rid of the pretendolino !

 

[43096]

The only other thing I noted was the automatically-opening internal doors between the saloon & vestibule, activated by some sort of foot treadle under the carpet IIRC. "These won't keep working for long", I thought at the time, and I think I was correct. Modern Railways soon had reports of frequent failures of the opening mechanism and luggage-carrying passengers having to struggle with malfunctioning doors manually.

Except they have worked, generally pretty reliably, for the last 50 years.

 

[Helvellyn]

The decline in on-train catering was shown by the cascading of mk3 restaurant cars from the WCML to Anglia just a few years later and years before non-catering mk3s followed.

That was more because in the mid-1980s all WCML catering was standardised in 58 Restaurant Buffet First Modular (RFM), converted from a mix of the original Mk 3A RFBs, redundant HST Kitchen Cars and Mark 3A FOs. Many were used in sets with Mark 2F stock (to allow Mark 1 RBRs to be withdrawn). When InterCity cut back off the wires extensions to the likes of Blackpool and Shrewsbury, plus switched the North Wales services to HSTs, it had spare sets of Mark 2F FOs, TSOs and Mk 3A RFMs, so was able to send many of the coaches to Anglia.

 

[AY1975]

As I recall at least in the early to mid 1980s the Manchesters and the Glasgows were often formed of mixed Mark 2 and Mark 3 sets. Did this become common right from the introduction of the Mark 3s or not until a few years after they entered service?

 

[hexagon789]

As I recall at least in the early to mid 1980s the Manchesters and the Glasgows were often formed of mixed Mark 2 and Mark 3 sets. Did this become common right from the introduction of the Mark 3s or not until a few years after they entered service?

Few years after, the brake distributors were adjusted to reduce the braking rate and to all intents and purposes the 2F and 3A stock were treated interchangeably.

Fast forward to 1984 and with the introduction of 110mph running, all Mk3 sets (with Mk1 NHA) were formed up; the brake distributors were readjusted back to the original settings for the higher speed.

Glasgow became more-or-less fully all-Mk3 sets in 1985, the move to convert the other routes took until 1989. Mixed sets remained very common on Liverpool & Manchester until this time.

 

[ScottGallagher]

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

 

[Sun Chariot]

How long did it take to reslove (or largely resolve) that random burning rubber smell, you used to dred it coming through the heating grilles.

Latter 1980s, certainly on Western Region, I could still smell the brake pads' dust when the HSTs braked.
I didn’t smell it on WCML Mk3 LHCS though.

 

[Ken H]

Mk3 catering cars must have taken a fair bit of ETH output. No probs with a cl 86 or 87 but surely a cl47 would struggle.

Loco hauled Mk 3's has motor alternator (MA) sets to convert the ETH power to the leccy needed by the Mk3 lighting, aircon and catering equipment. Later these were replaced by solid state rectifiers/inverters. AC locos put AC down the ETH, diesels put DC.

How come a Mk1 BG could be plated for 110mph but Mk2 vehicles, not?

Part of the 110mph project was the new curving rules. Trains were allowed to run round corners with more cant deficiency. Passengers were pushed sideways, but they got there faster.p

 

[Harpo]

Part of the 110mph project was the new curving rules. Trains were allowed to run round corners with more cant deficiency. Passengers were pushed sideways, but they got there faster.

Driver comfort was a factor too. I heard from more than one driver that they wouldn’t take Weedon at line speed.

 

[hexagon789]

How come a Mk1 BG could be plated for 110mph but Mk2 vehicles, not?

They were given special maintenance for the higher speed. More importantly, the braking distances from 110mph could only be met with primarily disc braked formations. I suppose you could've fitted all the Mk2s with disc braked B4 bogies (such a design did exist) but presumably the cost wasn't deemed worth it.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Latter 1980s, certainly on Western Region, I could still smell the brake pads' dust when the HSTs braked.
I didn’t smell it on WCML Mk3 LHCS though.

Perhaps on those occasions it was HST running the Euston to Glasgow service then, it wasn't all the time but it was horrid !

 

[hexagon789]

Latter 1980s, certainly on Western Region, I could still smell the brake pads' dust when the HSTs braked.
I didn’t smell it on WCML Mk3 LHCS though.

Perhaps on those occasions it was HST running the Euston to Glasgow service then, it wasn't all the time but it was horrid !

Pre-1984/5 there were two differences between the Mk3A and Mk3 braking:

1. The 3A had its braking rate reduced to more equal that of the tread braked stock; this was to reduce brake wear as it was quickly found that in mixed sets the Mk3 vehicles did most of braking at medium and higher speeds and consequently wore their brakes more quickly. The enhanced braking rate was restored from 1984 as part the 110mph running.

2. The HSTs had a two-stage brakes until 1985, when the pad material and mountings were altered in such a way that the reason for the two-stage system was rendered unnecessary and it was isolated. Only the power cars had the two-stage system. Consequently again, the trailers did more of the braking effort at the highest speeds, with the power cars having their braking rate reduced above 90mph originally.

Edit: I should add the conclusion to that - essentially the Mk3 trailers had more braking effort placed on their brakes and at potentially higher speeds; the harder the brake effort the greater the brake wear, the greater the brake "stink"

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @hexagon789 that logic makes perfect sense.

 

[Transilien]

Glasgow became more-or-less fully all-Mk3 sets in 1985, the move to convert the other routes took until 1989. Mixed sets remained very common on Liverpool & Manchester until this time.

Was Birmingham then the only destination that had a mixture of Mark 2/3 coaches by 1989?