Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[Lewisham2221]

I don't recall similar issues with in the past few weeks with:

- Crystal Palace's FA Cup parade
- Newcastle United's Carabo Cup Parade
- Tottenham's Europa Cup Parade

all of which took place at within much shorter time periods than Liverpool's PL champion's parade

I don't think any of those events would have had anywhere near the same number of people trying to leave the city afterwards.

 

[sprunt]

But there would _still_ have been tens of thousands of people complaining because they hadn't planned their day out very well.

That is pure supposition and nothing more than an attempt to divert from the clear failure that actually happened.

 

[KNN]

That is pure supposition and nothing more than an attempt to divert from the clear failure that actually happened.

It's not supposition, it's maths.

 

[185143]

I spoke to someone last night who'd been at Lime Street, who'd also been there during the Giants event a few years back which by his reckoning was the only remotely comparable event numbers wise. I've no idea if that's true or not, just going off what he said.

His experience then was of a very busy but well managed station and managed to get back after a reasonable time in a queue given the numbers involved. His experience last night was standing outside the station for 4 hours to eventually get on a train that didn't go to his intended destination, albeit very close to it.

It certainly seems based on that account and the reports above of trains leaving empty that something was very different and went badly wrong this time.

I don't support football in any way shape or form, but in my opinion which I suspect I'm not alone with, Liverpool fans have lost all right whatsoever to give grief to other fans about not being from their team's city!

Can't help but be amused by the fact that people were complaining about Merseyrail's preparation for it, yet they don't seem to have had any major issues.

Admittedly it would have been better if they were a) planned in advance and b) actually properly utilised, but most TOCs did run additionals last night. Avanti ran a few extras to Crewe and Wolverhampton, maybe even a London too. TPE and Northern did a few extras to Manchester between them, I think TfW did at least one extra Chester as did Merseyrail. EMR ran the Nottingham ECS in service to Manchester, Stockport and Nottingham. So clearly the ability and the will was there from the TOC side of things, at least to an extent.

 

[The exile]

Easy to blame the railway but perhaps people should be looking at the council for allowing multiple big events to be held in the city on the same weekend?

There’s only so many trains that can be released to strengthen services. You can’t force people to work their non contracted days even if they’re incentivised.

Indeed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

It would be interesting to know if any senior management were present or were they also off because of the Bank Holiday?

If there were not then someone (or maybe several someone’s) should be looking for a new job by the end of the week.

 

[LYuen]

I went from Manchester to Liverpool.

The journey from Manchester Victoria was actually decently managed.
My friends and I were due to take the 11:22 Victoria to Liverpool service, originated from Newcastle. (rtt)

It was late and the staff at Victoria announced the train was full before it would arrive at Victoria, and recommended people taking a Headbolt service instead. Then, amazingly, they managed to arrange an extra service to only pick up passengers at Victoria, before the TPE train arrived. It was double class 195/1 (i.e. 6 coaches). It was standing but not jam-packed. It ran non-stop between Victoria and Lime Street (rtt).

Meanwhile, the return situation was just awful.

People were standing outside the station. No movement, no information. No staff or officer ever tried to communicate what was happening. There were no nothing even before the car crash so that was not an excuse, and as expected during such crowd, the phone had no Internet. After almost an hour standing still, I gave up and asked a friend to drive us out from Sandhills

But to be fair, to handle such crowd, it requires a grand scale preparation involving not only Lime Street Station.

The entire plan should be finalised few weeks ahead and to be well communicated with passengers.

 

[Red Devil]

That there is no scenario where tens of thousands of people would have been able to take a train out of Liverpool in the timeframe. There aren't enough trains.

No that's true. But you can take more than 3 passengers. And there are lots of other examples given previously where trains have been empty leaving Lime Street

 

[Merseyphil2000]

Merseyrail managed to get it right and as such should be applauded, my comments come from my daughter and grand children who travelled from Leeds and expected to catch a return that evening, having been in close proximity to the Water Street incident they - like many thousands of supporters - headed to Liverpool Lime Street expecting a degree of organisation.

Network Rail had seen the numbers arriving all day from all over the UK, with numerous extra trains from the TOC's to safely transport them. After standing on the steps for several hours from 1830 with NO information from Network Rail Staff whatsoever other than closed doors across the front of the station.

Eventually they walked to Moorfields and got a train to our house on the Northern Line, arriving soon after 2300. The idea of trains running outward with plenty of seats, with so many people outside, is unbelievable.

Network Rail need to be held accountable for their lack of organisation last evening. The truth will come out sooner or later, interesting that the local press doesn't seem interested today.

 

[Western Sunset]

There is something in today's Liverpool Echo <https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/network-rail-issues-statement-over-31732007>, but nothing in detail about the shambles at Lime Street. Just the usual anodyne Network Rail statement about being sorry for any inconvenience etc etc

 

[6Gman]

Well done for getting the thread back on track. Endless waffle about event scheduling is irrelevant when trains were leaving anything other than 100% loaded. Someone must be responsible for the shambles but it looks as if nobody cares. Even on a day that appears to be a cash cow waiting to be milked, the railway screws up big time.

The layout of Lime Street doesn't help with large crowds. Two relatively narrow, awkward side entrances and a front entrance involving steps and stairs. And a narrow pinch point between the "Northern" side and the "longer distance" side (not helped by kiosks and statues. That the platforms sit higher than the St George's plateau doesn't help.

A station not fit for purpose.

And I suspect "nobody cares" sums it up because the station is run by Network Rail (who don't get direct revenue from passengers) while the trains and ticket income involve multiple operators (mostly based far, far away).

Without going all nostalgic things might have been different with a Divisional Passenger Manager (Liverpool) and a Station Master/Manager (Liverpool Lime Street).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

But to be fair, to handle such crowd, it require a grand scale preparation involving not only Lime Street Station.
For example, Lime Street will only run all-stoppers to Manchester and Crewe, dedicated to a few platforms. Trains for other destinations should start from outskirt stations rather than Lime Street.
The entire plan should be finalised few weeks ahead and to be well communicated with passengers.

Which "outskirt stations" would you suggest for the Eustons, the Birminghams, the TransPennine services?

And how are passengers supposed to get there?

 

[Djgr]

And I suspect "nobody cares" sums it up because the station is run by Network Rail (who don't get direct revenue from passengers) while the trains and ticket income involve multiple operators (mostly based far, far away).

Without going all nostalgic things might have been different with a Divisional Passenger Manager (Liverpool) and a Station Master/Manager (Liverpool Lime Street)

With a risk of repeating myself, despite what is often quoted on the forum, Merseyrail often do a much better job than anyone else, because Liverpool is where they are based and their staff live rather than simply being an entry on a spreadsheet being read in Nottingham or Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

It’s a Network Rail managed station, so I’d expect NR staff form up the bulk of the staff there.

On privatisation Liverpool Lime Street (main station) was given to "First" North Western, who did the type of job that you would expect from them.

Subsequently, Network Rail took over Lime Street and several other stations that clearly had multiple and long distance TOC operators.

However, the bulk of the staff at the station are inherited from FNW and have travelled through the succession of TOCs, which is another feature of the privatised universe.

 

[trainophile]

I was waiting at New Street today for the inbound ex-LIV WMR 10:33 departure, which arrived 11 minutes late at 12:31 and packed to the gunnels. As the occupants poured out onto the platform I noticed that quite a lot of them were wearing LFC strip, so I assumed they had been unable to get back last night. Made me wonder whether they'd had anywhere to sleep. They looked a bit dazed and fed up, understandably. Wondered how many of them had missed work today too.

On departure back to Liverpool I overheard a guy on his phone telling someone that he'd intended to get the WMR to Euston from the other end of the same platform, but "there was absolutely no chance of getting on that, absolutely full and standing", and that was at just after midday today. I suppose, regardless of the Liverpool situation, travelling the first day after a Bank Holiday is always going to be busier than usual. Doesn't excuse what sounds like a total shambles at Lime Street though.

 

[ainsworth74]

An anonymous member of station staff who was at Liverpool Lime Street on Monday has asked if the following could be posted giving more of an inside view of what happened on the day:

The accounts above and from social media that several trains departed with very few or perhaps even no passengers are definitely true, especially at the start of the queueing system in the first few hours after implementation at around 1700. While we understood clearly it was always the intention trains would wait to leave until full, the initial queue plan quickly broke down because of numbers being much higher than it could accommodate. The police later controlled access to the station and reports of the access being completely closed for some periods of time are also true, but the station did then reopen. There were a large number of strengthened services on Northern, with six cars in place of three or four on most routes, and a small number of additional services on TransPennine Express, Avanti West Coast and Transport for Wales, these were roughly at capacity in the morning until around 1500. EMR and TfW also provided five/six and four car trains respectively on most services.

Avanti West Coast have run a number of additional services today between Liverpool Lime Street and Stafford to help anyone who is still trying to leave Liverpool, we understand all tickets are being accepted on these services and all tickets from yesterday. One of the most serious problems was people going a long way with luggage unlikely to be in Liverpool in connection with the trophy parade and maybe not even aware of the football win when they booked, it was after all Radio One's Big Weekend finishing the previous night. There was also enormous difficulty in getting assistance to those who booked it after the police controlled access to the station.

Anyone caught in the queues is encouraged to submit a complaint to whomever they were travelling with and ask for compensation of at least their ticket value, more if they can show a taxi or hotel bill incurred exclusively as a result of the queues.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks to the member of station staff for that insight.

It makes it all the more worrying that some incident logs appear to be clearly false, as noted above, regarding train loadings. How will Network Rail improve their planning, implementation and performance of these events, if wrong data is collected (or incorrectly collected)
and they don't own up to their shortcomings.

Looks like the TOCs provided the capacity (and some extra), but it all fell apart in the execution.

So who was running the station in the end; the Police or Network Rail?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Suspect the railway will get away with this in the media with focus very much elsewhere.

Sounds an utter disgrace. The railway is good at moving large number of people quickly, apparently we can't even do that anymore. There are plenty of other stations to learn from that manage it better.

 

[sonic2009]

Looks like the TOCs provided the capacity (and some extra), but it all fell apart in the execution.

Also thanks to the station staff member for this insight.

The TOCs only provided the capacity after the sheer numbers of people appeared in the AM to get to Liverpool - one does wonder why wasnt the capacity there in the first place.

Could also the influx of people wanting to leave Liverpool afterwards increased due to the incident that occurred on Water Street, caused the issues at the station in the evening?

 

[73001]

With a risk of repeating myself, despite what is often quoted on the forum, Merseyrail often do a much better job than anyone else, because Liverpool is where they are based and their staff live rather than simply being an entry on a spreadsheet being read in Nottingham or Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

Merseyrail actually had company directors out in the city stations, in uniform and able to make instant decisions, such as getting rail replacement buses to supplement the trains. Must help with company morale when you see the bosses mucking in with the station staff.

 

[6Gman]

Merseyrail actually had company directors out in the city stations, in uniform and able to make instant decisions, such as getting rail replacement buses to supplement the trains. Must help with company morale when you see the bosses mucking in with the station staff.

Something that should always happen, but rarely does.

I started my railway career on a section that planned and monitored strengthening, provision of reliefs etc.

At the first Christmas, while others finished at 1 and went to the pub, my boss went down to the station to see how arrangements were working. And I went with him.

(Better than drinking anyway!)

 

[Red Devil]

An anonymous member of station staff who was at Liverpool Lime Street on Monday has asked if the following could be posted giving more of an inside view of what happened on the day:

I concur with what my colleague has written.

 

[Krokodil]

Taking a step back, even if you can get 5000 people out of the crowd to the right trains, without there being a mass stampede,

Cardiff manages to organise 80k people to the right trains. Separate queues need to be set up for different destinations.

 

[Horizon22]

On this occasion their opinion is right. Complete shambles. I know as I work there

It does look like it was quite badly handled overall to be fair, and I’m sure there will be at least some sort of review into the crowd management strategy (or lack thereof)

 

[RHolmes]

The TOCs only provided the capacity after the sheer numbers of people appeared in the AM to get to Liverpool - one does wonder why wasnt the capacity there in the first place.

That isn’t true.

My TOC had pre-planned additional services, strengthened trains and also strengthened services which directly didn’t serve Liverpool (to provide capacity for regular travellers who couldn’t board the long distance Liverpool services).

They weren’t publicly advertised until the day of travel intentionally, but they did exist prior to the event.

 

[sjm77]

An anonymous member of station staff who was at Liverpool Lime Street on Monday has asked if the following could be posted giving more of an inside view of what happened on the day

Please thank them on my behalf

 

[Starmill]

That isn’t true.

My TOC had pre-planned additional services, strengthened trains and also strengthened services which directly didn’t serve Liverpool (to provide capacity for regular travellers who couldn’t board the long distance Liverpool services).

They weren’t publicly advertised until the day of travel intentionally, but they did exist prior to the event.

And in fact someone above in this very thread has commented that they travelled on 1Z01 1143 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street! A number of 1Txx or 2Txx are also visible on Realtimetrains.co.uk and these are short notice extras planned in advance. Some were unadvertised as you say then changed to advertised, or advertised locally only. So quite a few morning departures from multiple operators.

 

[Skie]

It seems like the failure to set up an adequate queue system and communicate it to all involved (station staff, extra hands drafted in, police and passengers) is the main culprit. Lime Street has 3 entrances, each with a significant amount of available space if the side streets are closed. It wouldnt be impossible to group people into 3 groups for destinations and then subdivide them in each area to ensure a steady flow onto platforms as trains become available.

There is even a huge screen across the way that can be used to help communicate where people need to go.

If there were not then someone (or maybe several someone’s) should be looking for a new job by the end of the week.

Well if the Euston example is anything to go by, until a minister gets involved all we'll see is more shouty men.

The TOCs only provided the capacity after the sheer numbers of people appeared in the AM to get to Liverpool - one does wonder why wasnt the capacity there in the first place.

There isnt an intercity TOC in the country that can magic up multiple additional services in an afternoon. The additional trains and crew would have been planned in advance but the specifics about when/how they were used could have been left until on the day.

 

[sheff1]

What they're doing is putting safety first. Its a tried and tested plan that works to get people home, and get them there safely. Traincrew were advised their trains would be held until full and then sent, regardless of whether that would delay the service departing.

* Kettling people in crush type condtions is not putting safety first.

* Multiple firsthand accounts accounts from staff and passengers confirm that:
- the “ tried and tested plan” did not work to get people home;
- far from trains being held until they were full, they were leaving with hardly anybody on board.

 

[Starmill]

Not sure how you can say that with a straight face.

* Kettling people in crush type condtions is not putting safety first.

* multiple firsthand accounts accounts from staff and passengers confirm that:
- the “ tried and tested plan” did not work to get people home;
- far from trains being held until they were full, they were leaving with hardly anybody on board.

I can only shudder to think at the likely deluge of complaints being received from people who were in Liverpool on Monday. Especially at Avanti and Northern.

 

[Horizon22]

I can only shudder to think at the likely deluge of complaints being received from people who were in Liverpool on Monday. Especially at Avanti and Northern.

Although they would have had nothing to do with the issues that the majority of people would be complaining about. Station management of Lime St falls to Network Rail and the TOCs were running the trains as required.

 

[Starmill]

Although they would have had nothing to do with the issues that the majority of people would be complaining about. Station management of Lime St falls to Network Rail and the TOCs were running the trains as required.

Indeed. But under the current structure Network Rail doesn't really deal with customers on a commercial basis, so this is a distinction the general public will understandably never be able to appreciate.

 

[Typewind]

An anonymous member of station staff who was at Liverpool Lime Street on Monday has asked if the following could be posted giving more of an inside view of what happened on the day:

Thank you so much for sharing this. Please do pass on my thanks to the member of staff for taking the time to provide this insight. Any internal perspective is really appreciated. It helps us understand the situation much better.