Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[185]

I don't think it's unfair to say that it was terribly managed, given the photos from several traincrew showing not-full trains. One shows two near empty carriages at the tunnel end - and that comment earlier about a train at Edge Hill with room for another 100 backs up my assertion that there should be an investigation into this... probably down to an overreaction and lack of communication.

An emergency plan should have been part cancel the local stops to offer people space on a train going non stop Wigan, Non stop Manchester and Non Stop Crewe - to clear the backlog & give people options from those stations too.

Stuff Halewood, they can get the 75

 

[Typewind]

The layout of Lime Street doesn't help with large crowds. Two relatively narrow, awkward side entrances and a front entrance involving steps and stairs. And a narrow pinch point between the "Northern" side and the "longer distance" side (not helped by kiosks and statues. That the platforms sit higher than the St George's plateau doesn't help.

A station not fit for purpose.

And I suspect "nobody cares" sums it up because the station is run by Network Rail (who don't get direct revenue from passengers) while the trains and ticket income involve multiple operators (mostly based far, far away).

Without going all nostalgic things might have been different with a Divisional Passenger Manager (Liverpool) and a Station Master/Manager (Liverpool Lime Street).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==


Which "outskirt stations" would you suggest for the Eustons, the Birminghams, the TransPennine services?

And how are passengers supposed to get there?

Why and since when does Liverpool Lime Street no longer have a Divisional Passenger Manager or a Station Master/Manager? Are there other major stations in the UK that also no longer have these roles?

 

[MalaiseForever]

Why and since when does Liverpool Lime Street no longer have a Divisional Passenger Manager or a Station Master/Manager? Are there other major stations in the UK that also no longer have these roles?

All Network Rail managed stations have a station manager (multiple actually). Underneath a Head of Customer and Passenger Experience in all Routes.

 

[Falcon1200]

The TOCs only provided the capacity after the sheer numbers of people appeared in the AM to get to Liverpool - one does wonder why wasnt the capacity there in the first place.

Clearly the situation at Lime Street was dreadful, but before the day, were there forecasts of how many were expected, and from where they would be coming? I was surprised that, for example, trains from as far away as Birmingham were full with people heading to Liverpool; Was this, and should this, have been anticipated?

 

[AdamWW]

Although they would have had nothing to do with the issues that the majority of people would be complaining about. Station management of Lime St falls to Network Rail and the TOCs were running the trains as required.

Anyone complaining to the TOC would be doing the right thing.

A passenger has a contract with the train operating companies (as clearly stated in the NRCoT) not Network Rail. Before making a complaint to a company it is not a requirement to determine if a third party is ultimately responsible and to address the complaint to them directly, nor would it be appropriate to do so given that the customer has no direct contractual relationship with the third party.

If a passenger is unable to board a train for reasons within the industry's control but not the TOC itself, the TOC can't just absolve themselves of responsibility (which is not the same thing as blame) by saying that the train ran and it's not their fault nobody could get on it. I think it would be very hard to argue that the contractual responsibility to get a passenger from A to B only starts and finishes at the train door.

And even if the correct approach would be to complain to Network Rail, it would be appalling customer service for a TOC not to handle such a complaint by passing it on appropriately.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

I'm not one of these personal responsibility absolutists, but what did the people going to the parade think was going to happen?

Perhaps they thought that the railway would be in a better position than them to determine whether they were able to cope or not, and if they couldn't would have said so?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Although I was not in Liverpool on Monday, the points raised in this thread do seem to me serious and have not been covered in the national media Lime St is of course Liverpool's terminus for all long distance routes outside Merseyside and Liverpool fans come from many parts of the North West and Birmingham/Yorkshire as well, London as well.

One infers from these accounts that the railway more or less worked bringing fans into the city because arrival terms were staggered but getting them out was much more a challenge as the departures were more concentrated, presumably exacerbated by the Water St. incident?

At minimum, perhaps some of the MPs for the area might raise what happened in Parliament with Ministers and a formal Merseyside Police/industry/LFC review place on what happened, especially as the scenario of a major event plus some kind of simultaenous marauding attack is not far-fetched.

All of the long distance TOCs involved here have long standing issues with fleet size and train crew resources. For most, 6-car trains is about the limit. Unfortunately, as we all know, almost all spare coaching stock & locos that helped in the past with large scale events have long since gone (70s for the coaches, 90s for the locos?) Even with more notice, it is highly likely that TPE/NT could provide much more capacity than they were doing but perhaps (eg. with a few day's notice?) WMR might have been able to draft more EMU resources in from Birmingham for shuttles to Crewe if staff were prepared to help out. But, probably, the main mitigation is going to be better crowd management in and around Lime St?

In the medium term, the railway might need to consider having a small reserve fleet of DMUs (eg. 20 x 3 cars?) that is maintained and crew-knowledged sufficient to provide some flexible capacity wherever needed across the country? DMUs so that they can operate anywhere (and because there at least some older units potentially coming available now).

 

[MontyP]

It seems to me that the modern railway can only now function efficiently/effectively in predictable and well-planned circumstances, and seems unable to cope whenever something happens that disrupts the planned/standard day-to-day functioning.

Whether this is disruption caused by malfunction (e.g. the regular chaos on the WCML whenever there is a blockage north of Preston) or by large crowds at events (often football-related but also rugby at Cardiff, large concerts etc) there are constant themes of lack of planning, poor or conflicting information, poor/dangerous crowd management, even withdrawal of service (e.g. at Wembley Chiltern line or at Coventry Ricoh).

Perhaps there is a need for a small but highly experienced and multi-skilled team of experts who are available to help plan any major event regardless of location/TOC etc.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

PS. The point about NR's objectives above is a bit of a red-herring. They manage all of GB's largest stations and are well used to handling passenger volumes implied by that, including peaks. It's the day job for the Major Stations teams.

 

[zwk500]

Clearly the situation at Lime Street was dreadful, but before the day, were there forecasts of how many were expected, and from where they would be coming? I was surprised that, for example, trains from as far away as Birmingham were full with people heading to Liverpool; Was this, and should this, have been anticipated?

Quite frankly, if it wasn't it should have been. The railway handles Liverpool matches every year and is very well aware that they have support from all over the country as well as internationally.
That large numbers of supporters would travel from further afield on a bank holiday to attend the parade for the league championship should have been fairly obvious.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

It seems to me that the modern railway can only now function efficiently/effectively in predictable and well-planned circumstances, and seems unable to cope whenever something happens that disrupts the planned/standard day-to-day functioning. Whether this is disruption caused by malfunction (e.g. the regular chaos on the WCML whenever there is a blockage north of Preston) or by large crowds at events (often football-related but also rugby at Cardiff, large concerts etc) there are constant themes of lack of planning, poor or conflicting information, poor/dangerous crowd management, even withdrawal of service (e.g. at Wembley Chiltern line or at Coventry Ricoh). Perhaps there is a need for a small but highly experienced and multi-skilled team of experts who are available to help plan any major event regardless of location/TOC etc.

I was at Cardiff for the rugby the same weekend as this parade in Liverpool. The queueing system was vast but well managed, and the next train for each queue announced multiple times with the platform number prominent. Once the queue was released, staff were posted all the way through the subway and on the platforms to stream everybody into the waiting train. GWR had laid on extra services and strengthened formations. The trains themselves were held for as many to board as possible despite being delayed waiting for available platforms.

This was for a match with a 70,000 attendance between Northampton and Bordeaux in the European Rugby Champions Cup final.
I had waited a while so the queues had died down, and a few weeks before for 55,000 at Bristol vs Bath at Cardiff there were reports of 4h queues so they don't always get it right, but this even was well managed.

 

[Falcon1200]

The railway handles Liverpool matches every year and is very well aware that they have support from all over the country as well as internationally.

Yes, but the numbers at the parade were far, far greater than at any Liverpool match ever, surely?

That large numbers of supporters would travel from further afield on a bank holiday to attend the parade for the league championship should have been fairly obvious.

TBH I'm not sure; Have there ever been such numbers for any similar event in the city in the past?

(none of which excuses the situation at Lime Street on Monday, of course)

 

[Horizon22]

Anyone complaining to the TOC would be doing the right thing.

A passenger has a contract with the train operating companies (as clearly stated in the NRCoT) not Network Rail. Before making a complaint to a company it is not a requirement to determine if a third party is ultimately responsible and to address the complaint to them directly, nor would it be appropriate to do so given that the customer has no direct contractual relationship with the third party.

If a passenger is unable to board a train for reasons within the industry's control but not the TOC itself, the TOC can't just absolve themselves of responsibility (which is not the same thing as blame) by saying that the train ran and it's not their fault nobody could get on it. I think it would be very hard to argue that the contractual responsibility to get a passenger from A to B only starts and finishes at the train door.

Of course I’m aware of that but to some extent there is only so much the TOCs can do in that situation; they present the trains and the crew to move people suitably, and in their case this was mostly met but without passengers on their trains to which NR was responsible for providing an accessible station.

Much the same occurs where there’s some other NR fault where TOCs are delayed / cancelled (e.g signalling failure or a track fault) so people will of course be entitled to claim albeit this is slightly different.

 

[bramling]

PS. The point about NR's objectives above is a bit of a red-herring. They manage all of GB's largest stations and are well used to handling passenger volumes implied by that, including peaks. It's the day job for the Major Stations teams.

This is perhaps the problem, Network Rail often show that the way they run their stations leaves a lot to be desired.

Issues at Euston are very well documented, and there’s been a few farces at King’s Cross over the years as well not least the day when the 700s had their meltdown. Indeed the situation at King’s Cross on that day had stark similarities with Lime Street - doors closed, station left to its own devices, seemingly zero attempt to actually deal with the situation, and trains leaving empty despite hundreds of people wanting to travel.

 

[AdamWW]

Of course I’m aware of that but to some extent there is only so much the TOCs can do in that situation; they present the trains and the crew to move people suitably, and in their case this was mostly met but without passengers on their trains to which NR was responsible for providing an accessible station.

Much the same occurs where there’s some other NR fault where TOCs are delayed / cancelled (e.g signalling failure or a track fault) so people will of course be entitled to claim albeit this is slightly different.

I see that but - and apologies if I misunderstood your post - you seemed to be suggesting that it would be inappropriate for passengers to be complaining to the TOCs.

The TOCs may not be to blame but they need to take responsibility, which would include paying compensation as appropriate and, I'd hope, having discussions with NR over what could be improved for next time.

 

[WAB]

This is perhaps the problem, Network Rail often shows that it’s running of their stations leaves a lot to be desired.

Issues at Euston are very well documented, and there’s been a few farces at King’s Cross over the years as well not least the day when the 700s had their meltdown. Indeed the situation at King’s Cross on that day had stark similarities with Lime Street - doors closed, station left to its own devices, seemingly zero attempt to actually deal with the situation, and trains leaving empty despite hundreds of people wanting to travel.

Network Rail stations also have staffing levels on a much greater scale than their TOC-managed equivalents, but this doesn't seem to translate into improved outcomes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

few weeks before for 55,000 at Bristol vs Bath at Cardiff there were reports of 4h queues so they don't always get it right, but this even was well managed.

I suspect this will be down to the majority of passengers using the Bristol services as both sides were served by the same trains.

 

[Ethano92]

That would have been better, no one is disagreeing with that. But there would _still_ have been tens of thousands of people complaining because they hadn't planned their day out very well.

What sort of message does it deliver that if attending a big event you have planned poorly if choosing to attend by train? Nobody is suggesting they weren’t expecting to wait at all. If the strengthened services were filled, a decent dent in the crowd would’ve been made and far fewer people completely screwed over not forgetting other non-strengthened services would’ve continued to run until end of service.

Trains are the most efficient way to transport large numbers of people. The crowd did indeed plan their day out very well in choosing to travel by rail. Imagine the chaos if everyone accessed large events across cities in the UK only by car? It wouldn’t work. We know that rail transport is the most efficient means so responsibility lies with the railway. It sounds like the TOCs rose to this responsibility, it was station management that didn’t.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Quite frankly, if it wasn't it should have been. The railway handles Liverpool matches every year and is very well aware that they have support from all over the country as well as internationally.
That large numbers of supporters would travel from further afield on a bank holiday to attend the parade for the league championship should have been fairly obvious.

A football match, for which one has to hold a ticket in advance, is an event with a finite capacity - therefore the numbers are generally predictable.

Monday's event was not a football match, nor was it even vaguely comparable. It was a parade taking place on the streets, taking in a large area of Liverpool. The capacity for attendees was unlimited. We're not talking "large" numbers here, we're talking massive numbers.

 

[zwk500]

A football match, for which one has to hold a ticket in advance, is an event with a finite capacity - therefore the numbers are generally predictable.

Monday's event was not a football match, nor was it even vaguely comparable. It was a parade taking place on the streets, taking in a large area of Liverpool. The capacity for attendees was unlimited. We're not talking "large" numbers here, we're talking massive numbers.

The contention was whether it was foreseeable that such numbers would travel from afar. My proposition is that it was, based on prior experience. There is a separate discussion about whether the capacity on the trains provided could have coped, and then another separate discussion about the handling of the queuing system and access to Lime Street itself.

 

[AdamWW]

A football match, for which one has to hold a ticket in advance, is an event with a finite capacity - therefore the numbers are generally predictable.

Monday's event was not a football match, nor was it even vaguely comparable. It was a parade taking place on the streets, taking in a large area of Liverpool. The capacity for attendees was unlimited. We're not talking "large" numbers here, we're talking massive numbers.

Wouldn't that be a more appropriate comment if there had been a well managed system that got trains filled to capacity and out of Liverpool, but some people got left behind because there were still people waiting by the end of service?

 

[sheff1]

I was at Cardiff for the rugby the same weekend as this parade in Liverpool. The queueing system was vast but well managed, and the next train for each queue announced multiple times with the platform number prominent. Once the queue was released, staff were posted all the way through the subway and on the platforms to stream everybody into the waiting train. GWR had laid on extra services and strengthened formations. The trains themselves were held for as many to board as possible despite being delayed waiting for available platforms.

That matches my experience at Cardiff a few years back. Not only that, but I was able to approach ‘information staff’ and show my ticket to Sheffield and be allowed in to ensure I caught the last connection and not forced to wait behind those travelling to more local places.

Perhaps whoever is responsible for Lime St should be sent to Cardiff the next time there is an event there to see how things are done.

 

[AdamWW]

That matches my experience at Cardiff a few years back. Not only that, but I was able to approach ‘information staff’ and show my ticket to Sheffield and be allowed in to ensure I caught the last connection and not forced to wait behind those travelling to more local places.

It's really nice to hear of something that Transport for Wales are doing well!

 

[185]

Anyone complaining to the TOC would be doing the right thing. A passenger has a contract with the train operating companies (as clearly stated in the NRCoT) not Network Rail.

Not this time. BOTH are to blame for the mess, reports that NR, AND the tocs were holding people back whilst trains left empty.

People stranded overnight shouldn't have happened.

 

[AdamWW]

Not this time. BOTH are to blame for the mess, reports that NR, AND the tocs were holding people back whilst trains left empty.

Yes this time. And any time!

It doesn't matter where the blame lies. Passengers have a contract with the TOCs and not Network Rail, and if they have a complaint the TOC is where it needs to go.

 

[Starmill]

The general public could send complaints to Network Rail if they really wanted to, but I don't really think it makes much sense for many people.

Presumably, most people also want some compensation for the delay, which they are very unlikely to be getting paid by Network Rail. So they'd have to send two complaints.

Of course the general public could use the ordinary delay repay form, but my guess is a complaint would be far more effective for two reasons, firstly that it gives an opportunity to explain the experience and why it was so bad, and secondly a normal delay claim is at risk of being declined by the semi-automated process if it picks up a train that wasn't delayed long enough, but couldn't actually be reached.

Large numbers of the general public already send their complaints to trainline or the wrong train operator anyway, and this causes a delay in the reply when they're forwarded or rejected.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The contention was whether it was foreseeable that such numbers would travel from afar. My proposition is that it was, based on prior experience. There is a separate discussion about whether the capacity on the trains provided could have coped, and then another separate discussion about the handling of the queuing system and access to Lime Street itself.

Based on what previous experience?

The roughly 60,000 who attend a Liverpool home game?
The estimated 750,000 who attended the 2019 Liverpool parade? Monday's parade had an estimated attendance of 1 million. That's a 33% increase on the 2019 parade. For comparison, the city of Liverpool itself has a population of around 500,000 and the Liverpool City Region around 1.5 million.
The Manchester United Premier League winners parade in 2013, with an estimated attendance of around 100,000? Man Utd being famously regularly ridiculed for their far flung fan base and apparent lack of local fans.

As much as it's nice to see praise that the Cardiff Central crowd management generally works, it's hard to see the comparison between handling 80,000 people and handling 1,000,000 million people.

Yes, clearly, if trains were leaving virtually empty then something has gone wrong. But, quite frankly, I don't think any system would have coped with such a huge influx.

 

[Djgr]

It seems to me that the modern railway can only now function efficiently/effectively in predictable and well-planned circumstances, and seems unable to cope whenever something happens that disrupts the planned/standard day-to-day functioning.

Taking a national asset and splintering it into thousands of different bits and then linking these together through legal contracts is only going to work in a stable situation.

This was a well known and predicted criticism of privatisation.

 

[AdamWW]

Taking a national asset and splintering it into thousands of different bits and then linking these together through legal contracts is only going to work in a stable situation.

This was a well known and predicted criticism of privatisation.

Maybe, but TfW still really struggles to communicate when things go wrong even on their vertically integrated lines.

Then again I'm not sure what the contractual arrangements are with KeolisAmey(?) for the lines they own.

 

[Ethano92]

Based on what previous experience?

The roughly 60,000 who attend a Liverpool home game?
The estimated 750,000 who attended the 2019 Liverpool parade? Monday's parade had an estimated attendance of 1 million. That's a 33% increase on the 2019 parade. For comparison, the city of Liverpool itself has a population of around 500,000 and the Liverpool City Region around 1.5 million.
The Manchester United Premier League winners parade in 2013, with an estimated attendance of around 100,000? Man Utd being famously regularly ridiculed for their far flung fan base and apparent lack of local fans.

As much as it's nice to see praise that the Cardiff Central crowd management generally works, it's hard to see the comparison between handling 80,000 people and handling 1,000,000 million people.

Yes, clearly, if trains were leaving virtually empty then something has gone wrong. But, quite frankly, I don't think any system would have coped with such a huge influx.

Were there one million people, or anything remotely close to that, stood on the steps of Lime Street Station at any point? I wasn’t there so can’t say for certain, but I’d assume the answer be no.

The more manageable thousands of people however still couldn’t get on the trains that likely could’ve supported them albeit queues until the end of service, and a far smaller pool at the end of the service scrambling for Ubers.

Only if the trains had been allowed to fill up can we question whether the system could cope or whether there was enough provision and accurate passenger estimates. But that didn’t happen.

 

[ainsworth74]

Taking a national asset and splintering it into thousands of different bits and then linking these together through legal contracts is only going to work in a stable situation.

This was a well known and predicted criticism of privatisation.

Whilst that certainly hasn't helped the main culprit here is managing things in the most financially efficient way possible. This is the ultimate outcome of management by spreadsheet and in particular HM Treasury spreadsheet.

Keeping reserves of rolling stock and crew on hand to cater to the odd major event is not seen as a good use of financial resources. So each TOC now operates as close to the minimum as it's can possibly get. Even BR in it's later days didn't have carriage sidings full of mouldy Mk1s waiting for a freight loco to haul around to help with events in the way it did in say 70s (though it certainly had far more flexibility and resilience than today's efficiency optimised railway).

You can find the same issue all over different part of the state. Look at NHS hospitals, even before Covid poleaxed it, they were resourced to operate at very close to maximum capacity with very limited ability to absorb surges in demand.

Privatisation absolutely made the situation worse in terms of the ability to redeploy resources in an ad-hoc basis. But the rot set in decades ago with the drive to maximum efficiency day to day and has only worsened since.

 

[RHolmes]

Only if the trains had been allowed to fill up can we question whether the system could cope or whether there was enough provision and accurate passenger estimates. But that didn’t happen.

Realistically though that can’t happen.

There are legalities surrounding hours crew can work continuously and also when breaks must be taken before working trains.

On the other side of the coin logistically you only have 10 platforms at Liverpool of various maximum train lengths that are usually quite full and occupied on a normal day without the additional carriages and services running by all TOC’s. You can only delay a train so long before the platform is required for something else to replace it, and it also causes the butterfly effect where even a 1 minute delay at Liverpool can completely destroy the national network timetable.

An attempt was made to delay what was feasible but the collapse in the organisation of the queuing system is what caused the main problem to occur

 

[Djgr]

Whilst that certainly hasn't helped the main culprit here is managing things in the most financially efficient way possible. This is the ultimate outcome of management by spreadsheet and in particular HM Treasury spreadsheet.

Keeping reserves of rolling stock and crew on hand to cater to the odd major event is not seen as a good use of financial resources. So each TOC now operates as close to the minimum as it's can possibly get. Even BR in it's later days didn't have carriage sidings full of mouldy Mk1s waiting for a freight loco to haul around to help with events in the way it did in say 70s (though it certainly had far more flexibility and resilience than today's efficiency optimised railway).

You can find the same issue all over different part of the state. Look at NHS hospitals, even before Covid poleaxed it, they were resourced to operate at very close to maximum capacity with very limited ability to absorb surges in demand.

Privatisation absolutely made the situation worse in terms of the ability to redeploy resources in an ad-hoc basis. But the rot set in decades ago with the drive to maximum efficiency day to day and has only worsened since.

Yes agree with this as well. Knowing the cost of everything and value of nothing.