Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[MatthewHutton]

Whilst that certainly hasn't helped the main culprit here is managing things in the most financially efficient way possible. This is the ultimate outcome of management by spreadsheet and in particular HM Treasury spreadsheet.

Keeping reserves of rolling stock and crew on hand to cater to the odd major event is not seen as a good use of financial resources. So each TOC now operates as close to the minimum as it's can possibly get. Even BR in it's later days didn't have carriage sidings full of mouldy Mk1s waiting for a freight loco to haul around to help with events in the way it did in say 70s (though it certainly had far more flexibility and resilience than today's efficiency optimised railway).

You can find the same issue all over different part of the state. Look at NHS hospitals, even before Covid poleaxed it, they were resourced to operate at very close to maximum capacity with very limited ability to absorb surges in demand.

Privatisation absolutely made the situation worse in terms of the ability to redeploy resources in an ad-hoc basis. But the rot set in decades ago with the drive to maximum efficiency day to day and has only worsened since.

Surely the peak train demand in the north crush loaded (i.e 4-5 people per square metre) isn’t significantly lower than after Mondays parade?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Realistically though that can’t happen.

There are legalities surrounding hours crew can work continuously and also when breaks must be taken before working trains.

On the other side of the coin logistically you only have 10 platforms at Liverpool of various maximum train lengths that are usually quite full and occupied on a normal day without the additional carriages and services running by all TOC’s. You can only delay a train so long before the platform is required for something else to replace it, and it also causes the butterfly effect where even a 1 minute delay at Liverpool can completely destroy the national network timetable.

An attempt was made to delay what was feasible but the collapse in the organisation of the queuing system is what caused the main problem to occur

10 platforms of local/regional trains is still ~20tph or something.

 

[sheff1]

Were there one million people, or anything remotely close to that, stood on the steps of Lime Street Station at any point? I wasn’t there so can’t say for certain, but I’d assume the answer be no.

Well quite. Sounds like someone trying to claim that being unable to handle a situation which did not exist somehow justifies why effectively dealing with the actual situation was not possible.

Realistically though that can’t happen.

An early post on this thread stated that was exactly what the plan was.

 

[The Planner]

10 platforms of local/regional trains is still ~20tph or something.

Depends on the throat and the flow of trains in and out.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Were there one million people, or anything remotely close to that, stood on the steps of Lime Street Station at any point? I wasn’t there so can’t say for certain, but I’d assume the answer be no.

The more manageable thousands of people however still couldn’t get on the trains that likely could’ve supported them albeit queues until the end of service, and a far smaller pool at the end of the service scrambling for Ubers.

Only if the trains had been allowed to fill up can we question whether the system could cope or whether there was enough provision and accurate passenger estimates. But that didn’t happen.

No, obviously there weren't 1,000,000 queuing on the steps of Lime Street.

But if 1,000,000 people are attending an event in a city with a population of ~500,000 then that means at least 500,000 have travelled into, and will be travelling out of, the city. Realistically, every single resident of the city of Liverpool will not have attended the parade, so that number of people travelling in and out of the city proper will be closer to 700,000 or more. Again, obviously, not all of those 700,000 will be long distance travellers, a good proportion will be from Merseyside. The population of Merseyside is ~1.5 million. If you take away the city population, that leaves 1,000,000 for the rest of Merseyside. Clearly, not all of the 700,000 simply travelled from other parts of Merseyside into Liverpool, and even some of those that were would have been using Lime Street. Given all that, I reckon you're easily talking a couple of hundred thousand people from outside the area - and easily a number of people trying to use Lime Street that far exceeds any standard event day crowd control measures.

 

[Western Sunset]

Will lessons be learned by Network Rail from their shambolic management on the day? I very much doubt it, particularly as they have a "get out of jail free" card, with all that happened in the tragic events in Water Street.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Being a Brighton fan I wasn't at the parade but I have been to Anfield a few times by train and Liverpool home matches can't be compared to the scale of it. I have walked back into town to get to the station if their was a queue for the buses and by the time I got there you would struggle to notice a football match had gone on a couple of miles away.
I suspect if people complain too much about it then the train authorities will just turn round and say they can't support future events and close the station.

 

[The Planner]

Will lessons be learned by Network Rail from their shambolic management on the day? I very much doubt it, particularly as they have a "get out of jail free" card, with all that happened in the tragic events in Water Street.

There is plenty being looked at since the event, believe me. Its insulting to assume NR will use Water St as an excuse.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

TBH I'm not sure; Have there ever been such numbers for any similar event in the city in the past?

Yes, on multiple occasions. Giant marionettes in 2008, 2012, 2014 & 2018. Tall Ships, also 2008, with a return visit inevitable at some point. Various Cunard related events. Liverpool is absolutely no stranger to such large scale events. I suspect part of the problem this time was an attitude problem on the part of some in NWR, namely "oh no, not [profanity] football fans".

 

[The exile]

All Network Rail managed stations have a station manager (multiple actually). Underneath a Head of Customer and Passenger Experience in all Routes.

At least one of whom should have physically been present at Line Street. Were they?

 

[Western Sunset]

There is plenty being looked at since the event, believe me. Its insulting to assume NR will use Water St as an excuse.

I sincerely hope so.

My comment about events elsewhere in the city alluded to media attention focussing, rightly, on that, rather than any transport issues. Network Rail themselves, though, did mention those events in their piece to the Liverpool Echo.

 

[RHolmes]

An early post on this thread stated that was exactly what the plan was.

And that plan was what happened, and it absolutely didn’t work because of the queuing system.

Most trains were delayed by an average of 5-30 minutes delay throughout the evening, but they couldn’t be held indefinitely which is why the bulk of them left late and had capacity that could have been otherwise utilised.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, on multiple occasions. Giant marionettes in 2008, 2012, 2014 & 2018. Tall Ships, also 2008, with a return visit inevitable at some point. Various Cunard related events. Liverpool is absolutely no stranger to such large scale events. I suspect part of the problem this time was an attitude problem on the part of some in NWR, namely "oh no, not [profanity] football fans".

None of those events appear to have attracted 1 million+ visitors on a single day. Nor did they take place on a bank holiday weekend when there was also a large capacity music festival.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

None of those events appear to have attracted 1 million+ visitors on a single day. Nor did they take place on a bank holiday weekend when there was also a large capacity music festival.

Accurately gauging the size of a really large non-ticketed crowd is always difficult! Nevertheless I am not aware of any of those previous events leading to passengers being prevented from entering Lime Street station while trains were departing near empty. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Accurately gauging the size of a really large non-ticketed crowd is always difficult! Nevertheless I am not aware of any of those previous events leading to passengers being prevented from entering Lime Street station while trains were departing near empty. Quite the opposite in fact.

Maybe so, but 1,000,000 spread over 3 or 4 days compared to 1,000,000 in one day would be quite a miscalculation. Are you suggesting that the scenes at Lime Street on Monday evening would have been the same if there were 75% fewer people there?

 

[TUC]

That isn’t true.

My TOC had pre-planned additional services, strengthened trains and also strengthened services which directly didn’t serve Liverpool (to provide capacity for regular travellers who couldn’t board the long distance Liverpool services).

They weren’t publicly advertised until the day of travel intentionally, but they did exist prior to the event.

So how were passengers meant to make their travel plans in advance?

 

[6Gman]

All Network Rail managed stations have a station manager (multiple actually). Underneath a Head of Customer and Passenger Experience in all Routes.

Which is part of the problem.

Accountability divided is accountability avoided.

I could perhaps have been clearer in terminology; by "station manager/master" I meant one person responsible for everything and everyone at that location; by "divisional passenger manager" I meant one person responsible for the passenger service whether it's going to Euston (AWC), Birmingham (WMT), Chester (TfW), Manchester (EMR/ Northern/ TPE).

But it's something that's impossible under the current structure.

 

[AdamWW]

People seem to be suggesting that the reason things went wrong is that more people turned up than expected and than could be catered for.

Can someone explain what the mechanism was that this resulted in trains leaving near empty?

 

[RHolmes]

So how were passengers meant to make their travel plans in advance?

The additional services are/were intended to address the chronic overcrowding of the regular timetabled service, rather than to encourage even more passengers attempting to board trains.

A poster mentioned a few posts back that they struggled to board a Transpennine full and standing service from Newcastle but quickly after that departed an additional (Northern) service ran non-stop direct to Liverpool unadvertised.

Exactly the same thing happened with local buses operated by both Arriva Merseyside and Stagecoach MSCL

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Can someone explain what the mechanism was that this resulted in trains leaving near empty?

Essentially limits being placed on how many passengers were being let into the station via a single entrance that (in the opinion of posters on here, social media and local newspapers) was poorly signed, poorly managed by what little staff was on the ground, and confusing layout of the barriers and queue surrounding the station.

 

[Nova1]

It’s shocking to also see a number of videos online where there is confusion and claims that the station closed because of what happened with the car. Literally entire hotel lobbies rammed with people that couldn’t get home due to misinformation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s shocking to also see a number of videos online where there is confusion and claims that the station closed because of what happened with the car. Literally entire hotel lobbies rammed with people that couldn’t get home due to misinformation.

I wonder did the Adelphi start auctioning rooms to the highest bidder like they did (on TV, too) when there were similar issues due to the Aintree bomb threat in the late 90s? Or if they saw a bit of sense this time.

 

[Djgr]

I wonder did the Adelphi start auctioning rooms to the highest bidder like they did (on TV, too) when there were similar issues due to the Aintree bomb threat in the late 90s? Or if they saw a bit of sense this time.

The Adelphi is a disgrace and an embarrassment

 

[sheff1]

And that plan was what happened, and it absolutely didn’t work because of the queuing system.

So

... a tried and tested plan that works to get people home ......

didn't work.

Hopefully a new plan which actually will work can be drawn up prior to any future event of this nature.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Maybe so, but 1,000,000 spread over 3 or 4 days compared to 1,000,000 in one day would be quite a miscalculation. Are you suggesting that the scenes at Lime Street on Monday evening would have been the same if there were 75% fewer people there?

Absolutely. Given that trains were leaving almost empty while thousands were being held outside the station Monday represents a huge failure on the part of station management. The station concourse and platforms would be busier on a normal weekday than they were for much of Monday evening. It appears, for whatever reason, that those in charge on the ground were driven by some sort of paranoia whether as a reaction to seeing the number of people present or a badly designed plan that didn't allow for adjustment on the day.

I'm inclined to agree with a point made upthread: heads should roll after this.

 

[Starmill]

It’s shocking to also see a number of videos online where there is confusion and claims that the station closed because of what happened with the car. Literally entire hotel lobbies rammed with people that couldn’t get home due to misinformation.

If you notice there actually are a number of comments above suggesting the station was closed completely, but only briefly. I obviously don't want to guess how long that means but presumably it's minutes at most. Obviously without any way to communicate that to the people waiting outside the station it's rife for unreliable information to spread. It's clear it was handled extremely poorly.

Note there are reports on the other thread of services being full and standing when miles away from Liverpool. Large numbers of trains appeared on Monday morning on the various journey check websites running non-stop to Liverpool Lime Street from Crewe, Preston, Manchester Oxford Road or Manchester Victoria, Wigan North Western and Warrington Central. So many services were crush loaded that at one point an empty stock was run to Bryn from where it worked all stations to Liverpool in what I assume is an attempt to get some people moving from the likes of Thatto Heath and Eccleston Park. There's one report on Twitter of a four car 331 crush loaded from Poulton-le-Fylde and non-stopped from Preston as a result.

 

[canary fan]

Easy to blame the railway but perhaps people should be looking at the council for allowing multiple big events to be held in the city on the same weekend?

There’s only so many trains that can be released to strengthen services. You can’t force people to work their non contracted days even if they’re incentivised.

But the point here is that the trains weren’t used. There’s no point in releasing trains to strengthen services and the letting them leave empty-it’s sheer incompetence

 

[Starmill]

So

didn't work.

Hopefully a new plan which actually will work can be drawn up prior to any future event of this nature.

EMR aren't immune - there's a Tweet from someone on an EMR train just after 1900 hours that was apparently a 3+3 class 170 at about a quarter full. I guess it was 1L18 scheduled departure 1850 hours? Appears to have waited about 15 minutes and then given up (not unreasonable to give up and go by that stage of course, but...)

 

[6Gman]

EMR aren't immune - there's a Tweet from someone on an EMR train just after 1900 hours that was apparently a 3+3 class 170 at about a quarter full. I guess it was 1L18 scheduled departure 1850 hours? Appears to have waited about 15 minutes and then given up (not unreasonable to give up and go by that stage of course, but...)

EMR will have other passengers wanting to make other journeys and might reasonably take the view that waiting a further indeterminate length of time for the station staff to get things sorted, or not, was not appropriate.

 

[kkong]

I've seen similar before at other events in the country. It's of course sensible to manage crowds outside but in reality so few are/were allowed onto the concourse trains leave empty as chaos builds outside with a lack of communication, crushing at times and frustrated, irate people not allowed into empty stations and trains. It will cause a disaster one day and ironically be down to inept "safety" measures.

Exactly this happens at Mount Florida after events at Hampden.

Complete incompetence, they seem to let a set number of people down onto the platform for each train, with no consideration of the length of the next train arriving.

So you have 6-car trains leaving which aren't even half full, while thousands are still queueing on the street.

 

[sjm77]

EMR will have other passengers wanting to make other journeys and might reasonably take the view that waiting a further indeterminate length of time for the station staff to get things sorted, or not, was not appropriate.

Also, the platform may have been needed for re-occupation by trains heading into Lime Street. I presume the train crew would have been unhappy with the station staff at having to leave empty/almost empty

 

[hibtastic]

Did they have any form of queue separation by destination? I’m often impressed by how they manage the people at Haymarket after a large event has ended at Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh.