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Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

Masbroughlad

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I hope GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard. BR brought it back from the brink many years ago.

Maybe a proper catering offer brought back on the long distance routes, along with enough seats for all!
 
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danielnez1

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I hope GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard. BR brought it back from the brink many years ago.

Maybe a proper catering offer brought back on the long distance routes, along with enough seats for all!
I would like to see a set standard across the "Intercity" services - hopefully not a race to the bottom. However I don't think we will see it anytime soon with the various fleets having different types of seating, layouts, amities etc.
 

Brubulus

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I would like to see a set standard across the "Intercity" services - hopefully not a race to the bottom. However I don't think we will see it anytime soon with the various fleets having different types of seating, layouts, amities etc.
Agree here - would argue key thing is availability of somewhat proper hot food - don't care about presentation and cooking methods, but access to high quality hot food should be a must on almost all long distance and semi long distance services. To maximise capacity there should be a focus on online payment and off train preparation, with potentially kitchens at stations cooking food on behalf of established brands, with hot food loaded and distributed on trains in line with advance orders.
However that is likely too difficult for this country even though it exists abroad.
 

The Ham

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Agree here - would argue key thing is availability of somewhat proper hot food - don't care about presentation and cooking methods, but access to high quality hot food should be a must on almost all long distance and semi long distance services. To maximise capacity there should be a focus on online payment and off train preparation, with potentially kitchens at stations cooking food on behalf of established brands, with hot food loaded and distributed on trains in line with advance orders.
However that is likely too difficult for this country even though it exists abroad.

Arguably off site catering exists in theirs country for long distance travel, only it happens for airlines but railways, which shows we can do it, it just hasn't been applied to different sectors.

On the thought about standards, we do have on several other intercity services a standard of 5 and 9 coach set lengths to create 5 and 9/10 train lengths so it would be good if a future order for XC brought a similar patent to their services too.

Whilst HS2 is likely to result in 8 and 16 coach lengths, I'd suggest that HS and IC standards could be different, as HS would be between our larger city proteins which wouldn't really be any good to have sets shorter than 8 coaches (most IC city pairings should really be 9 coaches, is just that 5 coaches are useful for some of the outer edges at quieter times).
 

YorkshireBear

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If we could make every train currently a voyager an 8 coach Hitachi unit, the current Turbostar services were minimum four car, and crewing issues were sorted XC would be transformed and I think the majority of the complaints would vanish. Agreed RE catering but I think that's lower down the list than just sorting out capacity and reliability.

And based on how full they are while they are rubbish the passenger growth would be huge.

Accepting with the cost of that fleet we may need to trim some extensions but I don't think XC Run that many anymore.
 

A S Leib

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Accepting with the cost of that fleet we may need to trim some extensions but I don't think XC Run that many anymore.
2 trains each way at Penzance at the moment (1 pair Edinburgh, 1 from Bristol, 1 to Birmingham), 4 trains per day at Dundee (1 to Aberdeen, 1 Aberdeen to Plymouth, 1 Plymouth to Dundee, 1 Dundee to Edinburgh), two return Glasgow to Plymouth and one Edinburgh to Glasgow service, and no Doncaster to Southampton or CrossCountry Guildford or Bath services.
 

YorkshireBear

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2 trains each way at Penzance at the moment (1 pair Edinburgh, 1 from Bristol, 1 to Birmingham), 4 trains per day at Dundee (1 to Aberdeen, 1 Aberdeen to Plymouth, 1 Plymouth to Dundee, 1 Dundee to Edinburgh), two return Glasgow to Plymouth and one Edinburgh to Glasgow service, and no Doncaster to Southampton or CrossCountry Guildford or Bath services.
Not nearly enough to mean you should be getting small fleets and splitting trains in my view.
 

Zomboid

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I don't know about the NE/SW route, but my experience on the Bournemouth - Manchester is that a 4 car voyager is not adequate, but a 5 car isn't too far off what's needed for most services.

If they could replace the fleet on that route with something akin to a 444 (35 first + 299 standard seats as built) that would be a significant increase over a 221 (26 first, 220 standard). The 444 as built includes a guards office, buffet counter and a few bike spaces, so even a drop of 20 seats to allow more luggage storage would be 59 additional standard class seats, which is more than the 55 seats per standard class carriage average of a 221. And desiros can do 110, which is plenty for the Bournemouth - Manchester route. (Not that I'm advocating for desiros in particular, just using it as an example).
 

edwin_m

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I do wonder if a unit swap with GWR would help. 5-car 80x have more seats than Voyagers and overhead shelves big enough for most cabin bags. They appear on things like Bristol-Worcester and Cardiff-west country, which I'm guessing don't need the extra capacity and also have very little opportunity to run in electric mode. It would of course leave XC with two totally incompatible fleets, but using them on NE-SW would allow maintenance at depots that service similar units.
 

Broken Viking

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Remember we won't necessarily be getting a return of the InterCity service of the 90s with the return of GB Rail. Some things will definitely change and be adapted as higher passenger counts mean more seats are needed (Which makes buffet cars harder to fit in; Look at SWR removing theirs from the 444s for that reason!) and catering wise I'm predicting a trend toward more space-conservative options. Buying-in airline meals and heating them to order seems more likely than the traditional buffet approach, especially as two bar carts and a limited aircraft galley setup takes up much less space than even the type of buffet the 444s had on them.

If GBR IC wanted my advice for traditional on-board catering though, that's the one time I would encourage getting Amtrak on side. Their approach to trains might be strange, and their approach to punctuality and speed might be very difficult...But if there is one thing Amtrak excel at in my experience, it's on-board catering. The meals I had on the Empire Builder were some of the highest quality I had throughout that two month trip! :D
 

Halish Railway

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Talking about GBR reforms specifically, I think it can go either way as to whether XC will become more of a premium operator.

On one hand, devolution of powers in running services may significantly improve the provision of short-distance and regional services, decreasing the reliance on XC for shorter journeys such as Leeds to Sheffield and Coventry to Wolverhampton.

On the other hand, should devolution reforms be further implemented then I fear that the reoccurring issue of XC not being seen and the key operator in pretty much every region will mean that the XC operation will continue to receive less political advocacy than other operations. E.g. Manchester to Cardiff is seen as TfW’s main service and has seen improvements that XC should receive, but will the lack of political salience mean that XC will continue to be seen as the ugly stepchild not worthy of costly improvements?
 

The Planner

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No one knows what to do with it is probably the reality of it. Split it, keep it, truncate it, improve it.
 

Brubulus

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Talking about GBR reforms specifically, I think it can go either way as to whether XC will become more of a premium operator.

On one hand, devolution of powers in running services may significantly improve the provision of short-distance and regional services, decreasing the reliance on XC for shorter journeys such as Leeds to Sheffield and Coventry to Wolverhampton.

On the other hand, should devolution reforms be further implemented then I fear that the reoccurring issue of XC not being seen and the key operator in pretty much every region will mean that the XC operation will continue to receive less political advocacy than other operations. E.g. Manchester to Cardiff is seen as TfW’s main service and has seen improvements that XC should receive, but will the lack of political salience mean that XC will continue to be seen as the ugly stepchild not worthy of costly improvements?
Would agree here - Manchester-Cardiff in a MK4 is the absolute gold standard for cross country services, both across regional express and intercity routes. XC will see fleet replacement in the medium term, which is the chance to achieve a true step change in service from the Voyagers and Turbostars. However there will obviously be a desire to cram too many seats into too short of a train, so hopefully commonality of stock enables a high quality replacement, with the perfect option in my opinion being a slightly shorter, 10 coach bi-mode 745. This balances the key requirements of XC with it's high passenger turnover, that is unlikely to change regardless of devolution while providing proper service and facilities.
Hopefully GBR will treat XC as a core part of the timetable instead of a cause of ossification and delays, given it's consistently high loads and it's place as a key part of the national rail network that is often overlooked when the railway is simply seen as a way to get to London.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Until relatively recently (i.e. the last government) some civil service mandarins had serious proposals about shutting most of XC down, making claims that the majority of journeys made on XC could be done by alternative, faster, nicer routes, often for a lower fare. Where no reasonable, alternative existed, they'd have got the relevant "local" operator to expand their network.

I suspect that is part of the reason why so little was spent and little effort made into improving CrossCountry.

With GBR, I think XC will actually end up being a cooperative approach between each of the new GBR regions, ending the nonsense of separate depots and traincrew. E.g. a ScotRail driver may work from Aberdeen to Edinburgh.
 

JonathanH

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On one hand, devolution of powers in running services may significantly improve the provision of short-distance and regional services, decreasing the reliance on XC for shorter journeys such as Leeds to Sheffield and Coventry to Wolverhampton.
Thar isn't going to increase the number of paths available over those routes. Sheffield to Meadowhall is a fairly congested stretch of track. Where is the path going to come from to run a dedicated Sheffield to Leeds fast, as well as the existing CrossCountry service. The same applies with Coventry to Wolverhampton. The nature of the English railway is that all the trains on a corridor have to play their share in moving the passengers who want to make those journeys.
 

Halish Railway

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Thar isn't going to increase the number of paths available over those routes. Sheffield to Meadowhall is a fairly congested stretch of track. Where is the path going to come from to run a dedicated Sheffield to Leeds fast, as well as the existing CrossCountry service.
Northern are starting a new Leeds to Sheffield via Wakefield Westgate fast service from December. The point is that if devolved authorities have more power and finances to invest in the infrastructure necessary to run more local services this will have a massive benefit for XC no longer being the sole operator of more local (i.e. less than 50 miles) fast flows.
 

Brubulus

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Northern are starting a new Leeds to Sheffield via Wakefield Westgate fast service from December. The point is that if devolved authorities have more power and finances to invest in the infrastructure necessary to run more local services this will have a massive benefit for XC no longer being the sole operator of more local (i.e. less than 50 miles) fast flows.
They may no longer be the sole operator on such flows, but to cut out major stops, or impose pickup/dropoff restrictions would be incredibly unpopular and hit long distance customers. Therefore XC will always have more short distance customers than an operator such as Avanti or LNER. This can be accommodated by measures such as ensuring there is sufficient capacity. Separation of local, regional and intercity passengers is ridiculous and a unfeasible pipe dream that would increase subsidy and reduce the attractiveness of the railway.

XC needs to focus on providing an intercity level of service alongside the capacity needed for local demand. There's no reason why it can't do both, it just needs longer trains, preferably in single units.
 

ac6000cw

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With GBR, I think XC will actually end up being a cooperative approach between each of the new GBR regions, ending the nonsense of separate depots and traincrew. E.g. a ScotRail driver may work from Aberdeen to Edinburgh.
In pre-sectorisation BR days, IIRC that was how it worked - the services were planned by inter-regional committees, with resources allocated to/provided by each region involved (which was all five of them to varying degrees). But when any old loco (even a no-heat one in the summer) could haul a vacuum-braked set of Mk1s, life was somewhat simpler (and slower).

One problem with that sort of arrangement is maintaining a proper commercial and operational focus on the services when operation of them is fragmented across multiple regions. And being realistic, those services always tended to play second-fiddle to the London based IC services (which were also mostly self-contained within a BR region) when it came to priorities.

As far as I can see, GBR is going to be mostly about reducing the cost to the taxpayer of running the railway system, so I suspect any enhancements to the XC services are only likely to happen if it improves the overall revenue/cost ratio of XC.
 

HSTEd

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Given the dominance of short journeys on XC, is it really an "Intercity" service anyway?

I'd argue it is essentially Transpennine Express.
 

Zomboid

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Given the dominance of short journeys on XC, is it really an "Intercity" service anyway?

I'd argue it is essentially Transpennine Express.
For me they're pretty equivalent, with XC centred on Birmingham and TPE centred on Manchester.
 

Bletchleyite

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Given the dominance of short journeys on XC, is it really an "Intercity" service anyway?

I'd argue it is essentially Transpennine Express.

TPE varies. I would say Liverpool to Newcastle is more IC than the Cleethorpes. Yes there are commuters, but there are on Avanti and LNER, and isn't it the case that GWR's biggest money spinner is the Reading mob?
 

Brubulus

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Given the dominance of short journeys on XC, is it really an "Intercity" service anyway?

I'd argue it is essentially Transpennine Express.
XC is an intercity operator (mostly) and so is Transpennine Express (mostly). While Leicester/Nottingham to Birmingham are not XC services and should be WM services in the same way that Manchester-York via Castleford and Leeds-Huddersfield should not be TPE services.

There is the grey area of "regional express" such as Norwich-Liverpool and Stansted-Birmingham, which should realistically be considered intercity services but have a slightly lower tier of service. This service level could be extended to longer distance commuter routes such as EMR connect, GN to Kings Lynn and GWR to Oxford.

GA intercity shows how to balance large passenger turnover, with large doors, while also having a 2+1 first class and a buffet counter to provide Intercity service. A buffet counter is not a necessity if the UK railway figures out how to provide hot food and proper coffee without it.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Use of the Pick Up Only / Set Down Only flags in the timetable would probably solve a few issues for XC, although under Virgin and pre-Covid Arriva, this of course meant then losing out on all that nice TOC only tickets and ORCATS for stupidly short distances, in some cases.

Ultimately people should be pushed off InterCity XC for local journeys well served by other operators. Manchester-Stockport-Stoke, Birmingham International - New Street/Wolverhampton, Leeds-York etc.

Birmingham to Wolverhampton in the peaks on XC are crazy, people standing in first class, when there's 9 and 11 car Pendolinos and 4-8 car 350s minutes ahead and behind. People for Stoke and Manchester are left behind.
 

ac6000cw

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IMHO, in terms of the current TOC setup, Stansted/Leicester/Nottingham-Birmingham should be with EMR, Birmingham-Cardiff with TfW, and Norwich-Liverpool is correctly with EMR. They are ex-Regional Railways/Central Trains routes, after all. I think a trolley service of drinks and snacks is adequate for those services.

As for the 'Voyager' route network, I'd be sorely tempted to chop off the north of Newcastle (or even north of York) branch plus Cornwall and use the freed-up rolling stock and crew resources to boost train lengths and frequencies on the core network where XC is the main longer-distance operator. Sure, you'd lose some revenue from abandoned sections (to other TOCs), but since everyone seems to be complaining about overcrowding on Voyager services, you should be able to make that up from carrying more customers on the core network.
 

Sad Sprinter

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IMHO, in terms of the current TOC setup, Stansted/Leicester/Nottingham-Birmingham should be with EMR, Birmingham-Cardiff with TfW, and Norwich-Liverpool is correctly with EMR. They are ex-Regional Railways/Central Trains routes, after all. I think a trolley service of drinks and snacks is adequate for those services.

As for the 'Voyager' route network, I'd be sorely tempted to chop off the north of Newcastle (or even north of York) branch plus Cornwall and use the freed-up rolling stock and crew resources to boost train lengths and frequencies on the core network where XC is the main longer-distance operator. Sure, you'd lose some revenue from abandoned sections (to other TOCs), but since everyone seems to be complaining about overcrowding on Voyager services, you should be able to make that up from carrying more customers on the core network.

Or:

Give Manchester services to Avanti.
Give Birmingham to Stansted to Anglia
Give NE/SW to EMR
 

Falcon1200

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but since everyone seems to be complaining about overcrowding on Voyager services

Unless additional services were provided to replace XC north of York or Newcastle, there would simply be overcrowding on the existing trains, not to mention the reduction in through journey opportunities. XC trains are not empty on those northern sections, far from it!
 
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The Cross Country Trains services include the two trains an hour connecting Birmingham, Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester and the hourly train connecting Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York and Newcastle. If the Labour Party want to keep the red wall vote at the next general election they need to replace the current hopelessly inadequate rolling stock for the hourly Edinburgh-Plymouth, Manchester-Bournemouth and Manchester-Bristol train services with trains like the nine car class 800s that have at least 500 to 600 standard class seats. Forcing rail passengers in the North of England to stand on overcrowded trains is not a vote winner.
 

JonathanH

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If the Labour Party want to keep the red wall vote at the next general election they need to replace the current hopelessly inadequate rolling stock for the hourly Edinburgh-Plymouth, Manchester-Bournemouth and Manchester-Bristol train services with trains like the nine car class 800s that have at least 500 to 600 standard class seats. Forcing rail passengers in the North of England to stand on overcrowded trains is not a vote winner.
The number of voters for whom XC matters is tiny, and the seats aren't marginal. Spending on other areas of government and not the railway is going to be more important as far as the red wall voters go. XC simply isn't a voting matter because the issues are spread across the country.

Likewise, the point about whether XC is a 'proper intercity' operator won't register with most voters.
 

swt_passenger

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Yet another ‘let’s rip up the XC network and/or replace the entire fleet’ suggestion thread. We can’t have had one since about May.
 
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HSTEd

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Yet another ‘let’s rip up the XC network and/or replace the entire fleet’ suggestion thread. We can’t have had once since about May.
To mix it up a bit, let's have a thread about fusing TPE and XC together!

I don't think we've done that in a while.
 

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