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Motivations of expanded open access?

Bletchleyite

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Isn't this part of a blatant attempt by First to undermine the Government's plans for the railways? More open access will result in less income for the new nationalised GBR, while the addition of more trains to the network will put pressure on performance, something that the Government wants to improve. At least Heidi Alexander appears less enthusiastic than her predecessor as she can see the pitfalls. Apols in advance for any digression.....

To be honest I don't think they are trying to undermine anything, I would question whether FirstGroup are that competent :)

More likely they just want to keep their profitable finger in the pie - and so far Lumo has done quite well for them on the background of the fact that the main criticism of the railway is the price.
 
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VItraveller

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I don’t see a problem with it, it gives a private company opportunity to see if a route is profitable and there’s no reason why it couldn’t be taken on by GBR afterwards if it is, on the other hand if it’s not then GBR won’t have wasted resources on it.
take the service that’s often floated on here from the north-west or Birmingham to Brighton, I think it’s very difficult to say if for such a service would make any money or not because the railway has changed so much, it may be completely unprofitable or there again people might use it for point to point journeys but there is also a possibility that if If it’s up and running people in Birmingham might want to travel to Brighton regularly especially with the growth in leisure travel and tourism.
 
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Sorcerer

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I think the motive for open access operators is pretty straightforward. They see an open market and decided they want in. London-Stirling via the WCML isn't currently served by anyone else, provides a few more services to passengers in Nuneaton, Lockerbie and Motherwell, and it also gives passengers in Whifflet, Greenfaulds and Larbert their first direct rail service to London. It's not quite as abstractive as Virgin's open-access applications which comes across more as them still having a sour taste in their mouth over their franchise loss and actually seems to be deliberately abstractive rather than that simply being a side-effect.
 

Railperf

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It seems to be a simple equation. There seems to be demand for more services at a cheaper price. Open access creates more seats and the operator can initially price these up cheaply as it starts off with lower track access charges, plus it can lease older /cheaper rolling stock to start up. In time, as passenger loadings increase, the average ticket prices increase to a level close to the Dft operated train service. But the difference is where the profits go. DfT operators revenue goes back into the pot running the railway. The question is...what level of profit does OA generate for its stakeholders? No one would start open access to lose money. It is clearly attractive enough to draw in plenty of bidders.
 

43066

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It seems to be a simple equation. There seems to be demand for more services at a cheaper price. Open access creates more seats and the operator can initially price these up cheaply as it starts off with lower track access charges, plus it can lease older /cheaper rolling stock to start up. In time, as passenger loadings increase, the average ticket prices increase to a level close to the Dft operated train service. But the difference is where the profits go. DfT operators revenue goes back into the pot running the railway. The question is...what level of profit does OA generate for its stakeholders? No one would start open access to lose money. It is clearly attractive enough to draw in plenty of bidders.

Although there’s nothing wrong with making a profit, and of course the requirement to generate a profit means OA operators have an incentive to provide good service to attract people. For the DfT TOCs in the national rail contract world, and for GBR in future, there is no such incentive as they get paid irrespective.

Grand Central in particular seem to attract a lot of stick on here, but clearly they are providing a balance of service and price that attracts sufficient custom for them to remain viable and profitable.
 

JonathanH

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don’t see a problem with it, it gives a private company op opportunity to see if a route is profitable and there’s no reason why it couldn’t be taken on by GBR afterwards if it is, on the other hand if it’s not then GBR won’t have wasted resources on it.
The problem is that GBR could use paths more effectively with a single planned timetable. Having other services in the mix prevents a single unified timetable structure.

The question is...what level of profit does OA generate for its stakeholders? No one would start open access to lose money. It is clearly attractive enough to draw in plenty of bidders.
That clearly depends on the track access charges. If they were charged their true share of the replacement cost of the infrastructure and a premium on top, there would be no chance of them making money.
 

BlueLeanie

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The problem is that GBR could use paths more effectively with a single planned timetable. Having other services in the mix prevents a single unified timetable structure.

They could. Maybe UK Gov will order half a dozen electric units for operating the service from 2030?

That clearly depends on the track access charges. If they were charged their true share of the replacement cost of the infrastructure and a premium on top, there would be no chance of them making money.

If the accountants start looking too closely at the railways, it'll be £80 day return from Stirling to Edinburgh, and people will be reminiscing the days when you could get a Lumo London for £25 each way.
 

miklcct

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That clearly depends on the track access charges. If they were charged their true share of the replacement cost of the infrastructure and a premium on top, there would be no chance of them making money.
The decision to run additional train services or not depends on the marginal cost. Therefore they should be charged only the marginal cost of using the infrastructure, not the capital cost.

The capital cost should be paid by the taxpayer only as the infrastructure itself is a common good to the whole nation, while all TOCs should be self-sufficient with all operational cost paid by the passengers. This puts the state operator in equal competitive footing with open access operators.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the accountants start looking too closely at the railways, it'll be £80 day return from Stirling to Edinburgh, and people will be reminiscing the days when you could get a Lumo London for £25 each way.

Certainly for all I am not a fan of Lumo, what it is doing on the ECML is providing a bit of a check on LNER fares. They have already whacked them up a lot, particularly in the "trial" area, but they could have gone up a lot more.
 

miklcct

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Certainly for all I am not a fan of Lumo, what it is doing on the ECML is providing a bit of a check on LNER fares. They have already whacked them up a lot, particularly in the "trial" area, but they could have gone up a lot more.
I am a fan of Lumo since it operates using a low-cost business model. The purpose of train travel for most passengers is only to get from A to B, and nothing else. Anything more than that is an unnecessary cost.

As Lumo has proved, it has grown the long-distance rail market, similar to LCC (low-cost carriers) in the air market which has grown air travel.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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The latest tactic to gain approval for open-access services seems to be to include destinations not currently served or ill-served such as Marchwood or Paignton. Clearly they are a smokescreen - the aim is gain access to the Southampton and Bristol markets respectively.
 

BlueLeanie

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So

"But there’s a threat: privatisation by the back door" on the We Own It website. Is this fair comment (the style is a bit tabloidy)?

Definitely a bit tabloidy

"They don’t have to pay for depot space because they get to use depots that exist for other companies. They don’t have to pay to train their staff because they can just recruit staff trained by the other operators. It’s a false economy."

Don't the operators spend a generous amount with Hitachi, Alstom et al to have their units serviced at the depots daily, or National Rail for overnight stabling?

As for training, it's the same for most employment. The skill stays with the person, can't think of an employer who doesn't take the risk of training someone only for them to go and work somewhere else.
 

The Middle

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So


Definitely a bit tabloidy



Don't the operators spend a generous amount with Hitachi, Alstom et al to have their units serviced at the depots daily, or National Rail for overnight stabling?

As for training, it's the same for most employment. The skill stays with the person, can't think of an employer who doesn't take the risk of training someone only for them to go and work somewhere else.

Hard to take an article seriously that upholds Christian Wolmar and Gareth Dennis as the shining lights of railway journalism.
 

Simon11

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From what I have seen and looking at the latest accounts (covering 2023), Grand Central isn't very profitable. In fact, the profit from 2023 didn't even cover their losses in 2022.


Looking at some recent data from ORR (Passenger rail usage, October to December 2024), passenger journeys fell by 6% comparing Oct-Dec 24 -v- Oct-Dec 23.
 
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The latest tactic to gain approval for open-access services seems to be to include destinations not currently served or ill-served such as Marchwood or Paignton. Clearly they are a smokescreen - the aim is gain access to the Southampton and Bristol markets respectively.
The Alliance Rail (Southern) application to run an hourly train service between Marchwood and Southampton Central for which Alliance Rail (Southern) will fund the infrastructure and trains is clearly dependent on running a service every two hours between Southampton Central and London Waterloo but I have to support this open access application because the Government refused to fund the Restoring Your Railway application for a Southampton-Totton-Marchwood-Hythe passenger train service. The open access application is therefore the only way to reopen the Waterside Line to passenger train services.
 

Brubulus

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The Alliance Rail (Southern) application to run an hourly train service between Marchwood and Southampton Central for which Alliance Rail (Southern) will fund the infrastructure and trains is clearly dependent on running a service every two hours between Southampton Central and London Waterloo but I have to support this open access application because the Government refused to fund the Restoring Your Railway application for a Southampton-Totton-Marchwood-Hythe passenger train service. The open access application is therefore the only way to reopen the Waterside Line to passenger train services.
Agree here - abstraction funded infrastructure should be supported.
Would rather the current OA application system was replaced with a path auction system in which GBR specifies it's service level, then any additional are auctioned for at least marginal cost, with a preference towards bids which are likely to generate new revenue for the railway, or enable new infrastructure. However OA paths should normally never prevent a GBR clock face timetable.
 
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To be honest I don't think they are trying to undermine anything, I would question whether FirstGroup are that competent :)

More likely they just want to keep their profitable finger in the pie - and so far Lumo has done quite well for them on the background of the fact that the main criticism of the railway is the price.
I want open access passenger train services and new applications to continue but I am very concerned that the current rate at which applications are being submitted will spook the Government into making the criteria to approve new open access passenger train services a lot more restrictive in the legislation for Great British Railways.

The current process for approving track access applications has totally seized up over the last year. The problems of fitting all passenger and freight services in the December 2025 East Coast Mainline timetable has been the main cause but having a large number of open access passenger train service applications for both the East Coast Mainline and the West Coast Mainline at the same time has clearly made the problem much worse.

The Government will clearly want to ensure no repeat of the system grinding to a halt for a long period so I do not think this is a great time to be submitting a blizzard of new open access passenger train service applications.
 

Starmill

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The purpose of train travel for most passengers is only to get from A to B, and nothing else. Anything more than that is an unnecessary cost.
If this were true, all trains would be like the Seoul Metro. No seating, no toilets, nor indeed anything beyond bare floor space. There would certainly be no second member of staff or any catering availability on any trains. That would cost vastly less for London to Edinburgh than any of the current options, including by air or coach, and be perfectly lawful and safe. I do have to wonder how many people would travel on it though!

A photograph of the metro cars in question is available here: https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20240109003100315
 

BlueLeanie

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I want open access passenger train services and new applications to continue but I am very concerned that the current rate at which applications are being submitted will spook the Government into making the criteria to approve new open access passenger train services a lot more restrictive in the legislation for Great British Railways.

The current process for approving track access applications has totally seized up over the last year. The problems of fitting all passenger and freight services in the December 2025 East Coast Mainline timetable has been the main cause but having a large number of open access passenger train service applications for both the East Coast Mainline and the West Coast Mainline at the same time has clearly made the problem much worse.

The Government will clearly want to ensure no repeat of the system grinding to a halt for a long period so I do not think this is a great time to be submitting a blizzard of new open access passenger train service applications.
Having too many passengers and too much freight seeking to use the railway should never be considered a "problem"!

The problem is for 100 years people have looked at places like the Welwyn viaduct and haven't resolved the physical issues.

Maybe it's time for LNER to procure a batch of all standard units of the maximum length that can be accommodated at Kings Cross & Edinburgh + one stop.
 

Starmill

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Having too many passengers and too much freight seeking to use the railway should never be considered a "problem"!

The problem is for 100 years people have looked at places like the Welwyn viaduct and haven't resolved the physical issues.

Maybe it's time for LNER to procure a batch of all standard units of the maximum length that can be accommodated at Kings Cross & Edinburgh + one stop.
It would be far cheaper for the government to simply purchase Lumo, Hull Trains or Grand Central on the open market, and use new longer trains on their rights, than it would to actually build the infrastructure necessary to be able to run more long-distance services to and from London Kings Cross.
 

Brubulus

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Having too many passengers and too much freight seeking to use the railway should never be considered a "problem"!

The problem is for 100 years people have looked at places like the Welwyn viaduct and haven't resolved the physical issues.

Maybe it's time for LNER to procure a batch of all standard units of the maximum length that can be accommodated at Kings Cross & Edinburgh + one stop.
LNER has an order for 10 trains from CAF, which are only 230M, they could modify the order to be 12 coach trains, to function as crowdbusters on the busiest services.

Don't really have much of an issue with OA, but I do think they should be forced to use longer trains as a condition of track access, though it can be difficult to justify if XC/GWR are running 4/5 coach trains on mainlines.
 

61653 HTAFC

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LNER has an order for 10 trains from CAF, which are only 230M, they could modify the order to be 12 coach trains, to function as crowdbusters on the busiest services.

Don't really have much of an issue with OA, but I do think they should be forced to use longer trains as a condition of track access, though it can be difficult to justify if XC/GWR are running 4/5 coach trains on mainlines.
As long as those same standards apply to the franchised operators GBR/DOR services too. If you're going to force GC to start operating all services as double sets (despite all stations beyond Doncaster being unable to accommodate them) then there also needs to be a "ban" (or regime of financial penalties) on whatever LNER and GWR become running 5-car sets into London.
 

Brubulus

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As long as those same standards apply to the franchised operators GBR/DOR services too. If you're going to force GC to start operating all services as double sets (despite all stations beyond Doncaster being unable to accommodate them) then there also needs to be a "ban" (or regime of financial penalties) on whatever LNER and GWR become running 5-car sets into London.
Agree - GBR should be maximising train lengths whenever possible, to maximise the passenger carrying capacity of the railway. However this should not be required when a line is not at capacity. However if capacity is being used as an argument to deny OA applications or other service improvements, it is imperative that capacity is well used by both GBR, freight and OA. This includes performance standards for freight paths in some areas.
 

The Planner

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. This includes performance standards for freight paths in some areas.
It includes performance across the piece. Its all fine when it does work, but chucking more trains in that "fit" doesn't mean its going to carry on like that with a minor delay that takes several hours to recover from.
 

HSTEd

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I don’t see a problem with it, it gives a private company opportunity to see if a route is profitable and there’s no reason why it couldn’t be taken on by GBR afterwards if it is, on the other hand if it’s not then GBR won’t have wasted resources on it.
The problem is, ultimately, that it is possible for the route to cost the GBR a substantial amount of money whilst still being profitable for a private operator.

Ultimately, track access charges don't cover the full cost of operating services. A service that is notionally profitable for the operator is still (probably) consuming state subsidy, albeit indirectly.
 
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Having too many passengers and too much freight seeking to use the railway should never be considered a "problem"!
The problem over the last year is that the ORR decision making process has ground to a halt because of the very large number of applications for train paths. The problem has been too many applications for paths not too many passengers or too much freight. It would help if the ORR could finally bring this gridlock in the decision making process to an end by making decisions without further delay on all these applications.
 

Clarence Yard

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The ORR process has ground to a halt because they have been waiting for NR’s comments on the operational side. The ORR completed their economic analysis ages ago.

NR told the ORR that they couldn’t comment until earlier this year. The applicants have been very unhappy about this.

The WCML related applications are going to the ORR board for a decision this month and the ECML related applications are following in July.
 

jayah

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The problem is that GBR could use paths more effectively with a single planned timetable. Having other services in the mix prevents a single unified timetable structure.
They could and I would argue should, but Network Rail have never taken the lead which is necessary to make it happen.

On routes with one operator, or half a dozen of them, trains often run at different times each hour through the day with no little synergy. Connections happen pretty randomly, usually as a result of high frequency than any sort of planning or consistency.

If you take Kings Cross north to Grantham, there are two TOCs stopping at both. The general frequency is 3tph but even between 0600 and 2000 just the Grantham arrival times somehow manage to use seventeen different minutes of the hour.

The hourly Skegness departure uses eight different minutes of the hour, resulting in the Kings Cross to Skegness journey varying between 2hr42 and 3hr16 depending in which hour you happen to travel.

Open access absolutely doesn't stop regularisation, say you have 5 standard LNER paths from King's Cross and other two high speed paths. In one hour they are used by Hull and Lumo, the next by Grand Central, then LNER to Cleethorpes & Hull and so on.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Agree - GBR should be maximising train lengths whenever possible, to maximise the passenger carrying capacity of the railway. However this should not be required when a line is not at capacity. However if capacity is being used as an argument to deny OA applications or other service improvements, it is imperative that capacity is well used by both GBR, freight and OA. This includes performance standards for freight paths in some areas.
I suppose one solution for Grand Central could be to operate all services as double sets between London and Doncaster, where they split/join for services to/from Sunderland and Bradford. This would mean rewriting their timetables and adding a Doncaster stop to Sunderland services though.
 

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