Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[D365]

Just think how much of this could have been avoided if realistic timescales had been given right from the start..

Would Hitachi have won the order if they had given realistic timescales?

 

[Failed Unit]

Would Hitachi have won the order if they had given realistic timescales?

Probably not. EMRs ask was very off the shelf. I suspect they may be regretting not going for a 110mph train. Although had the whole line got electrified i suspect we would have a better conclusion. With how tight money is the passengers may not think so as it would probably be refurbished 350/2.

 

[43074]

Probably not. EMRs ask was very off the shelf. I suspect they may be regretting not going for a 110mph train. Although had the whole line got electrified i suspect we would have a better conclusion.

I don't see why they would have any regrets, running at 110mph instead of 120/125mph south of Bedford costs around 3 minutes. From a commercial point of view that would mean extending the journey time on all of their biggest flows (i.e. London - Nottingham, Leicester and Sheffield) which doesn't make any sense.

There's no indication that the delay to the 810s is because they were specified for 125mph, there are lots of other factors at play e.g. quality control issues and getting a training agreement with the unions.

 

[Aspen90]

There’s no way we can be any slower - the timings are so tight with the Thameslinks. If I leave STP 1 or 2 late I’m stuck behind the stopper or if I’ve an engine out and halfway to Bedford and delayed they’ll stick it on the fast in front of me and I’m stuffed for keeping time to the north then!

 

[Crithylum]

How long until this becomes a greater farce than the class 701?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

How long until this becomes a greater farce than the class 701?

When the 222s start getting taken away

 

[QSK19]

When the 222s start getting taken away

And if it were a tie breaker at that point, ultimate humiliation would be 170s returning to STP.

 

[Energy]

Seems most likely to me that EMR will borrow a few class 170s from other operators, or use the class 221s in storage, with XC driver trainers being quickly sent across.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Seems most likely to me that EMR will borrow a few class 170s from other operators, or use the class 221s in storage, with XC driver trainers being quickly sent across.

Not sure XC would have any spare capacity for that as they are desperately trying to train new entrants on their own trains. Lots of advertising for new drivers at XC, and it is oft said from advertising to emerging from basic training takes at least a year I believe the September cohort of XC trainees was selected months ago, so I am guessing they are looking at 2026 next.

More likely EMR's own instructors carrying out conversion courses 222 > 221 if at all. It would be a way of Alstom earning some bunce off assets 221101-221106, particular as the WSM project seems to be struggling at the moment

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It would be a way of Alstom earning some bunce off assets 221101-221106

Aren't they owned by Beacon Rail?

Or are you refering to maintenance contracts?

 

[Taunton]

Can the Heritage societies not pull together a bunch of Black 5s, Jubilees and Peaks to help out temporarily ...

 

[duffield]

Class 170s are limited to 100mph. Doesn't the current timetable rely on some 110/125mph running for the EMR intercity services, to avoid conflicts with Thameslink at the southern end of the MML? Surely the last time 170s ran to St. Pancras the Thameslink timetable was less intensive?

What I see as more likely would be running 170 shuttles from Nottingham to Leicester to connect with Sheffield/Derby to St. Pancras services instead of the current stopping xx12 service (that sort of thing *has* been done in the past). It would be pretty awful, with Nottingham passengers likely to not get a seat at Leicester, but I'm afraid I think the Derby/Sheffield service is seen as a priority.

Also I can see one of the two hourly Sheffield services being cut back to Derby (this was actually how they operated going back a few years). Many of these services seem quite lightly loaded between Derby and Sheffield.

So how would the following work with the remaining 222s:
1 tph from Nottingham
1 tph from Sheffield/Derby
1 tph from Derby, connecting to a 170 shuttle from Nottingham at Leicester

How many 222s would that save if all services were single 222s? And how many if the connecting service was doubled up to allow for the Nottingham passengers joining?

Of course there's also the possibility of reducing one of the two hourly services from Corby to a Corby/Kettering shuttle, which would free up a path which might allow 170s to run to St. Pancras.

 

[yorksrob]

Can the Heritage societies not pull together a bunch of Black 5s, Jubilees and Peaks to help out temporarily ...

They had the Deltic on that cross country service a few years back, so why not (The Peaks anyway !)

 

[JonathanH]

Of course there's also the possibility of reducing one of the two hourly services from Corby to a Corby/Kettering shuttle, which would free up a path which might allow 170s to run to St. Pancras.

Or terminating the 170 or 222 at Kettering for passengers to take the Corby service into London, which would be better use of capacity?

 

[Iskra]

GWR HST’s (displaced by 175’s) to the rescue?

 

[Topological]

Or terminating the 170 or 222 at Kettering for passengers to take the Corby service into London, which would be better use of capacity?

That is a better suggestion. Would not be so bad if the Corby was always 8 car (or 12 car).

Presumably they would keep the fast Nottingham and fast Sheffield as 222 for as long as possible.

 

[duffield]

Here's my cynical prediction for the overall situation:

• EMR keep pretending everything will be fine, right up until the point where the 222s start to go
• An emergency/degraded timetable (probably involving 170s and resembling some of the ideas above) is introduced
• An almighty row blows up with all the east mids MPs involved
• The minister insists "something must be done" to restore a proper intercity service ASAP
• Some half-cocked "solution" involving class 180s or something is put in motion
• This "solution" is eventually put in place, at considerable expense, just a couple of months before enough 810s finally go into passenger service to make it unnecessary.

I'll try to remember to revisit this prediction next year and see how it stood up to reality.

 

[Brubulus]

Here's my cynical prediction for the overall situation:

• EMR keep pretending everything will be fine, right up until the point where the 222s start to go
• An emergency/degraded timetable (probably involving 170s and resembling some of the ideas above) is introduced
• An almighty row blows up with all the east mids MPs involved
• The minister insists "something must be done" to restore a proper intercity service ASAP
• Some half-cocked "solution" involving class 180s or something is put in motion
• This "solution" is eventually put in place, at considerable expense, just a couple of months before enough 810s finally go into passenger service to make it unnecessary.

I'll try to remember to revisit this prediction next year and see how it stood up to reality.

I think what will happen is the first few 222s will leave with no replacement. There will be no political row. Our glorious DfT will announce that they are "boosting capacity" and "protecting customers" by rolling out 170s. 170s should be able to run on the Nottingham services without destroying the timetable. There will likely be some 170s borrowed from Northern, most likely subjecting the people of Harrogate to sprinters. 6 car 170s have substantially more capacity than 5 car 222s.
I find it unlikely the DfT will take proactive action to lease extra stock.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There will likely be some 170s borrowed from Northern, most likely subjecting the people of Harrogate to sprinters.

Where are you going to find the Sprinters to run those services without casuing short forms and overcrouding in the North?

 

[Class 170101]

Of course there's also the possibility of reducing one of the two hourly services from Corby to a Corby/Kettering shuttle, which would free up a path which might allow 170s to run to St. Pancras.

More likely the limited stop services to both Sheffield and Nottingham would be withdrawn to save stock.

Corby to London is all electric stock which there isn't a shortage of but it also can't help you north of Market Harborough.

 

[HSTEd]

Corby to London is all electric stock which there isn't a shortage of but it also can't help you north of Market Harborough.

What happens if you break all services on the MML at either Kettering or Market Harborough?

You could put all traffic south of there onto Class 360s and save the time necessary to run into London and out again.

 

[Zomboid]

Maybe this is a solution for the "what shall we do with these 350/2s" conundrum.

 

[Class 170101]

Maybe this is a solution for the "what shall we do with these 350/2s" conundrum.

Still doesn't help you unless you force all passengers to change at Kettering.

I think its more likely to be Class 180s or the spare 221s as has been highlighted already.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Or terminating the 170 or 222 at Kettering for passengers to take the Corby service into London, which would be better use of capacity?

Yep and EMR hopefully running 12 coaches this time!

 

[bluenoxid]

Harrogate line passengers are very aware of 150’s and 158’s with regular diagrams and substitutions.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Maybe this is a solution for the "what shall we do with these 350/2s" conundrum.

Do you know if 350/2s can couple with EMR's 360s?

 

[Zomboid]

Would they have to? If they're keeping the northern extent to diesel and running 110mph electrics south of there then some trains could be 360s and others 350s. No obvious need for them to couple.

 

[D365]

Where are you going to find the Sprinters to run those services without casuing short forms and overcrouding in the North?

Newport!

 

[Iskra]

More likely the limited stop services to both Sheffield and Nottingham would be withdrawn to save stock.

Corby to London is all electric stock which there isn't a shortage of but it also can't help you north of Market Harborough.

No chance that happens.

More likely TfW cascade 6x150 to Northern to release 170’s from their Sheffield-Scarborough services to fill the gap.

I still think 180’s or HST’s from GWR are most likely however.

 

[JonathanH]

More likely TfW cascade 6x150 to Northern to release 170’s from their Sheffield-Scarborough services to fill the gap.

Is it? Is there a source for that? The idea of moving 170s away from Northern is a favourite on this forum, and always countered by people who actually have anything to do with those units.