Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Yew]

“If”. But they don’t and never have done, so it is irrelevant making suppositions on what may have happened.

It is very relevant, as you were asking in what way the ROSCO setup was responsible for this situation - as they have chosen to pull trains away to get larger profits - and the fundamental issue is that they have zero accountability to the public, only to their bottom lines. This could have been accounted for in the regulations for ROSCOs, or in the contractual terms, or by having a system that doesn't rely on middlemen siphoning off money for their shareholders.

 

[Spartacus]

If the government owned the 222s, I don't think they'd be stitching up a franchised operator to support an open access one. Whereas the private company has no such scruples.

Similarly, under BR micro-fleets such as the 180s were much less common, instead of a handful of 180s, and a handful of voyagers kicking around spare, we might have a large homogenous class which is easier to transfer around.

BR wasn't entirely averse from pulling one fleet off a route before it's replacement was ready with something quite unsuitable used in the meantime. I seem to remember the delayed introduction of the 158s causing 150s to be used on services they were quite unsuited to.

 

[Starmill]

There are still several months to go before a Meridian is stood down so until that actually happens there's very little anyone can gain from discussing it I think. By such time it may be clearer if 810s can resume testing or acceptance.

 

[43096]

BR wasn't entirely averse from pulling one fleet off a route before it's replacement was ready with something quite unsuitable used in the meantime. I seem to remember the delayed introduction of the 158s causing 150s to be used on services they were quite unsuited to.

Such as Mark 3s being pulled off Edinburgh-Glasgow services before their replacement Class 158s were available, with Class 156s standing in.

 

[The_Train]

I’m very much inclined to agree that Hitachi is not the right product

You could have ended that post there

Abysmal product after abysmal product have left that facility at Newton Aycliffe and yet they've been given yet another mammoth contract to create yet more of their appalling stock. I suppose it keeps the work flowing for other businesses though - I mean, Eastleigh Works have been kept going by having to glue the GWR IETs back together

There are still several months to go before a Meridian is stood down so until that actually happens there's very little anyone can gain from discussing it I think. By such time it may be clearer if 810s can resume testing or acceptance.

I am not sure when in September the first batch are due to be removed from the EMR fleet but even if it is the last day of September we are still only talking about just over 3 months. The few examples of the new fleet to have escaped the factory are currently in the process of being dragged back to the factory to fix what must be very serious issues for them to be unable to return under their own power. Safe to say that this is going to become a problem for EMR in a few months time and they are now in a position where they can do nothing to stop it happening and unless they pull something out of a magic hat they have nothing to remedy it with either!

 

[800001]

You could have ended that post there

Abysmal product after abysmal product have left that facility at Newton Aycliffe and yet they've been given yet another mammoth contract to create yet more of their appalling stock. I suppose it keeps the work flowing for other businesses though - I mean, Eastleigh Works have been kept going by having to glue the GWR IETs back together



I am not sure when in September the first batch are due to be removed from the EMR fleet but even if it is the last day of September we are still only talking about just over 3 months. The few examples of the new fleet to have escaped the factory are currently in the process of being dragged back to the factory to fix what must be very serious issues for them to be unable to return under their own power. Safe to say that this is going to become a problem for EMR in a few months time and they are now in a position where they can do nothing to stop it happening and unless they pull something out of a magic hat they have nothing to remedy it with either!

Eastleigh works would still be going even without Hitachi work.

 

[The_Train]

Eastleigh works would still be going even without Hitachi work.

I know, it was quite clearly a jokey reference to the fact that other businesses are being given additional work to fix the mess being created by Hitachi

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is very relevant, as you were asking in what way the ROSCO setup was responsible for this situation - as they have chosen to pull trains away to get larger profits - and the fundamental issue is that they have zero accountability to the public, only to their bottom lines. This could have been accounted for in the regulations for ROSCOs, or in the contractual terms, or by having a system that doesn't rely on middlemen siphoning off money for their shareholders.

EMR didn't want the 222's anymore and weren't bothered about the impact on Eversholt so what were they supposed to do but seek an alternative operator which they have done in First Group. If this really is heading for the doomsday scenario Heidi Alexander should be on the phone to First Group over future open access applications in exchange for some delays to releasing the 222's perhaps.

 

[Benjwri]

EMR didn't want the 222's anymore and weren't bothered about the impact on Eversholt so what were they supposed to do but seek an alternative operator which they have done in First Group. If this really is heading for the doomsday scenario Heidi Alexander should be on the phone to First Group over future open access applications in exchange for some delays to releasing the 222's perhaps.

Impact on Evershot? Are you saying the railway should keep tired old diesel stock just to help the ROSCOs, who have already made a significant profit on the trains, and continue to make very healthy margins?

 

[Clarence Yard]

EMR didn't want the 222's anymore and weren't bothered about the impact on Eversholt so what were they supposed to do but seek an alternative operator which they have done in First Group. If this really is heading for the doomsday scenario Heidi Alexander should be on the phone to First Group over future open access applications in exchange for some delays to releasing the 222's perhaps.

Heidi Alexander has absolutely no decision making powers over the future OA applications, thank goodness, so she has no pull on FG, especially as the “free money” contracts are now ending.

Having done some digging, all five sets are indeed now due to come off lease on 30/09/25. FG are getting one immediately for Driver Training, etc but the others are being held for refurb. However, as they are not all going to throughput at once and the first refurbished set is not due out till early-ish next year, EMR could possibly sub lease a set or two off Lumo for a period.

In fact, FG is expecting and waiting for the phone call from EMR. There is a deal to be done here, if the DfT will let EMR do it.

 

[800001]

Heidi Alexander has absolutely no decision making powers over the future OA applications, thank goodness, so she has no pull on FG, especially as the “free money” contracts are now ending.

Having done some digging, all five sets are indeed now due to come off lease on 30/09/25. FG are getting one immediately for Driver Training, etc but the others are being held for refurb. However, as they are not all going to throughput at once and the first refurbished set is not due out till early-ish next year, EMR could possibly sub lease a set or two off Lumo for a period.

In fact, FG is expecting and waiting for the phone call from EMR. There is a deal to be done here, if the DfT will let EMR do it.

That sounds like a sensible plan to hire back on a temporary basis.

222001-222005 are the unit I have been told from a reliable source.

Daft question. How much different is a 221 to a 222 for a driver? Is one of them for Lumo a possibility while they at sat doing nothing?

 

[43066]

That sounds like a sensible plan to hire back on a temporary basis.

Daft question. How much different is a 221 to a 222 for a driver? Is one of them for Lumo a possibility while they at sat doing nothing?

Not very different, but different enough to require a full traction course AIUI.

 

[jthjth]

Heidi Alexander has absolutely no decision making powers over the future OA applications, thank goodness, so she has no pull on FG, especially as the “free money” contracts are now ending.

So you think the letter she wrote to the ORR in January was just a bit of fun?
“Whilst this letter does not replace the formal guidance currently in place and
holds no formal legal standing, I hope it will be helpful to the ORR by setting
out my expectations for how the Government’s vision for Open Access
operates alongside a publicly owned railway.

I also intend to consider amendments to my Secretary of State guidance. This
will build upon the policy position set out in this letter, as well as wider
consideration of how a reformed sector - as it moves towards a single
directing mind and public ownership - provides better value for passengers
and taxpayers.”

(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/677bc388d119b345376654a4/dft-letter-sos-orr.pdf)
The first sentence of the second paragraph above is relevant.

 

[sh24]

So, how long until the 170's reappear at St Pancras?

 

[QSK19]

So, how long until the 170's reappear at St Pancras?

I’ve responded to this in the parallel 810 thread looking at the stopgap speculation side.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So you think the letter she wrote to the ORR in January was just a bit of fun?
“Whilst this letter does not replace the formal guidance currently in place and
holds no formal legal standing, I hope it will be helpful to the ORR by setting
out my expectations for how the Government’s vision for Open Access
operates alongside a publicly owned railway.

I also intend to consider amendments to my Secretary of State guidance. This
will build upon the policy position set out in this letter, as well as wider
consideration of how a reformed sector - as it moves towards a single
directing mind and public ownership - provides better value for passengers
and taxpayers.”

(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/677bc388d119b345376654a4/dft-letter-sos-orr.pdf)
The first sentence of the second paragraph above is relevant.

No, it was a shot across the bows of the ORR, who the DfT don’t like because they cannot and will not be “controlled”.

But she doesn’t currently have any decision making powers over the process and won’t have over the current applications, most of which will probably get binned by the ORR anyway, without the help of any intervention from the DfT. The WCML ones will probably be the first ones we shall hear about.

It will just make her look good when the ORR finally opines.

 

[Bald Rick]

So you think the letter she wrote to the ORR in January was just a bit of fun?
“Whilst this letter does not replace the formal guidance currently in place and
holds no formal legal standing, I hope it will be helpful to the ORR by setting
out my expectations for how the Government’s vision for Open Access
operates alongside a publicly owned railway.

I also intend to consider amendments to my Secretary of State guidance. This
will build upon the policy position set out in this letter, as well as wider
consideration of how a reformed sector - as it moves towards a single
directing mind and public ownership - provides better value for passengers
and taxpayers.”

(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/677bc388d119b345376654a4/dft-letter-sos-orr.pdf)
The first sentence of the second paragraph above is relevant.

What @Clarence Yard says is correct (with a caveat). Ministers have absolutely no power in Open Access applications currently. Ministers could change their guidance to ORR, but the key word there is ‘guidance’. In itself that might have some significnat implications, but that is for the future.

The caveat is that it is not beyond possibility that in future the principles of guidance might become instructions. That will require primary legislation.

 

[Trainben]

I'm surprised this story hasn't been covered more by the rail press, it would easily fill a two page spread.

 

[PG]

Having done some digging, all five sets are indeed now due to come off lease on 30/09/25.

Thank you for this information, much appreciated.

I'm surprised this story hasn't been covered more by the rail press, it would easily fill a two page spread.

Too wary to bite the hands that feed them.

 

[meowtrain]

New post from Class 8xx appreciation group shows 810005 and 810007 coupled together at Merchant Park, so maybe they’ve at least started the two unit testing now?

Class 8xx Appreciation Group | Facebook

Formally Class 800/801/802 Appreciation&Photography Society. 2019 has seen the Hitachi A-train design (AT-300) for the IEP - Intercity Express Program...

www.facebook.com

 

[800001]

New post from Class 8xx appreciation group shows 810005 and 810007 coupled together at Merchant Park, so maybe they’ve at least started the two unit testing now?

Class 8xx Appreciation Group | Facebook

Formally Class 800/801/802 Appreciation&Photography Society. 2019 has seen the Hitachi A-train design (AT-300) for the IEP - Intercity Express Program...

www.facebook.com

no testing them units where they are parked. That’s the siding where they dump units they don’t want to touch or play with. Also those units have no cables connecting the coaches, and no cables connected roof top either so not able to power up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:46 ==

Modern Railways have tweeted a link to an article about the fleet being delayed until 2026 and rewiring is needed on the first 12 units.
Link to tweet below

https://x.com/modern_railways/status/1937824356144460090?s=46&t=JLp3J2Up_Gl_m9cQz-au6w

The Class 810s have been delayed again, with rewiring required. It looks like a 2026 introduction for the fleet now!

ndustry sources have confirmed that the Class 810 Aurora bi-mode trains being manufactured by Hitachi for East Midlands Railway are unlikely to enter service before Christmas. The units had been due to enter service from 2022.

A provisional entry into service had been planned for late September, with the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) having authorised five-car passenger operation.

A number of what Modern Railways sources described as ‘thermal events’ within the wiring means the first 12 trains built need an extensive rewire. Test trains have been stopped for at least a month, as MR closed for press, with insiders expecting several more weeks of delay before they can restart.

The first Class 222s will be leaving EMR during September for refurbishment for Lumo. MRunderstands contingency plans to maintain capacity are being out together, but details have not been released.

 

[1D54]

Plenty of speculation on here about what could happen if these new trains are further delayed and now it has become official i can't wait to hear these details being released. What a total shambolic situation to be in and EMR punters deserve better than what could be around the corner.

 

[800001]

I’m interested in where 810002 is. I know 2-3 carriages of it, possibly more, were sent to Hitachi’s Pistoia facility in Italy, probably over 2 years ago, for climate testing.
To my knowledge they have not come back (or if they have under a cloak of darkenss).
Does anyone with any knowledge of this fleet know where this is?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

They're not short though - they're designed to the standard 10x23m or 12x20m length that was normal up until the IET decided to go off-piste with 26m carriages.

If the IC250 train had been built, it would have comprised 26m long carriages

 

[QSK19]

Modern Railways have tweeted a link to an article about the fleet being delayed until 2026

I’ll collect my winnings and reinvest them into entry to service being May 2027.

 

[800001]

I’ll collect my winnings and reinvest them into entry to service being May 2027.

Fills me with confidence for HS2.
Alstom and Hitachi working together…….701+810s!

 

[QSK19]

Fills me with confidence for HS2.
Alstom and Hitachi working together…….701+810s!

Indeed. Both of those introductions have been a disgrace and, by the time all trains are in service, must surely go down as two of the worst introductions in British rail history (I’ll even be bold and say the worst two!).

 

[superalbs]

Being suggested now that 180s are to return to the MML...

https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1937841340991287552

180s

Not sure how much I believe this, but it would be very funny.

 

[Trainbike46]

Fills me with confidence for HS2.
Alstom and Hitachi working together…….701+810s!

While both cases are bad, there are better cases from both manufacturers!

 

[800001]

While both cases are bad, there are better cases from both manufacturers!

Not recently…..