The later days of Southeastern slam door stock.

[JonathanH]

The VEPs went 38 years before they ended service.

mods note - split from this thread:

Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

Southeastern has announced that Alstom, Siemens, CAF, Hitachi and Stadler have been shortlisted for an "Invitation to negotiate" for the SE metro fleet replacement or improvement. Proposed (but not guaranteed) features include air con, toilets, level boarding of some sort, and on-board...

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Many of the Southeastern ones barely reached 30 years, being from the final 1974 batch, but there was a safety issue related to their withdrawal which doesn't apply to the Networkers.

 

[brad465]

Many of the Southeastern ones barely reached 30 years, being from the final 1974 batch, but there was a safety issue related to their withdrawal which doesn't apply to the Networkers.

Technically there were 2, although one was specific to only some. I presume the one you're referring to is the Cannon St crash revealing poor bodywork safety. The other that comes to mind is the case of a passenger being murdered en route to Victoria while sat in an individual booth with no access to any other part of the train, which led to all units with that seating layout restricted to peak diagrams.

 

[Bald Rick]

Technically there were 2, although one was specific to only some. I presume the one you're referring to is the Cannon St crash revealing poor bodywork safety. The other that comes to mind is the case of a passenger being murdered en route to Victoria while sat in an individual booth with no access to any other part of the train, which led to all units with that seating layout restricted to peak diagrams.

The safety related reasons for withdrawl were the requirement for all stick to be fitted with TPWS, and for all Mk1 stock to be fitted with ‘cup and cone’ override protection.

 

[Roger B]

Technically there were 2, although one was specific to only some. I presume the one you're referring to is the Cannon St crash revealing poor bodywork safety. The other that comes to mind is the case of a passenger being murdered en route to Victoria while sat in an individual booth with no access to any other part of the train, which led to all units with that seating layout restricted to peak diagrams.

My recollection's pretty hazy, but wasn't the second issue you mention concerning the 4EPBs? Originally each 4EPB unit had a compartment carriage, but as a result of the incident, when the 4EPBs were being refurbished, they remarshalled them into new formations, with the 54xx units having no compartment vehicles, and the 55xx units having two compartment vehicles, each with a red stripe along the side of the carriage just under the join with the roof. to alert passengers. The 55xx units were primarily used to strengthen formations during peak times, and were prioritised for withdrawal as brand new networkers were delivered.

 

[frankmoh]

I swear NSE had plans to make every train in the company* a Networker by 2000. I assume they wished for a lot more than 190 EMUs? (or they wished not to get privatised so soon!)

*in the Southeast region

 

[JonathanH]

I swear NSE had plans to make every train in the company* a Networker by 2000.

They did want to continue building units based on the Networker platform to remove slam door rolling stock by around that date, and the 411s were the next fleet due replacement. They wouldn't have all looked outwardly like a 465 or 466 though as the 411 replacement fleet was due to be through gangwayed. It doesn't seem likely that they would have displaced recently built 319s, 321s etc by that date though.

 

[Recessio]

The safety related reasons for withdrawl were the requirement for all stick to be fitted with TPWS, and for all Mk1 stock to be fitted with ‘cup and cone’ override protection.

Was central door locking a concern, or had that been fitted to the slam-doors?

 

[Bald Rick]

Was central door locking a concern, or had that been fitted to the slam-doors?

Oh yes, that too. (It wasnt fitted).

 

[frankmoh]

They did want to continue building units based on the Networker platform to remove slam door rolling stock by around that date, and the 411s were the next fleet due replacement. They wouldn't have all looked outwardly like a 465 or 466 though as the 411 replacement fleet was due to be through gangwayed. It doesn't seem likely that they would have displaced recently built 319s, 321s etc by that date though.

I assumed the Networker 2000 plan was only for the Southeast region since it was all 3rd rail electrified. Anyways, replacing trains built in 1988 with trains built in 1991 would not be a good idea.

 

[frankmoh]

Oh yes, that too. (It wasnt fitted).

As someone who has never been on a slamdoor before, it still feels weird watching old videos of train stations and seeing lots of people hop out of the train before it stops.

 

[bramling]

As someone who has never been on a slamdoor before, it still feels weird watching old videos of train stations and seeing lots of people hop out of the train before it stops.

It was completely commonplace, and most people had it down to a fine art. Indeed you could often see people be out of the train and the door slammed closed before the train had even come to a stand. In those days most people were conscientious enough to close the door behind them as well.

 

[adc82140]

I could tell you a story or two from my commuting days on slammers. My favourite is the man who liked to be the first out of the train and into the car park. Worked well until the fateful day he mistimed it and fell flat on his face on the platform. Briefcase fell open, paperwork disappeared off the end of the platform. Fortunately for him it was only his pride injured.

 

[frankmoh]

I could tell you a story or two from my commuting days on slammers. My favourite is the man who liked to be the first out of the train and into the car park. Worked well until the fateful day he mistimed it and fell flat on his face on the platform. Briefcase fell open, paperwork disappeared off the end of the platform. Fortunately for him it was only his pride injured.

Suits, briefcases and newspapers. How the commuting world has changed.

Also I seem to recall a video where Charing Cross in the 90s didn't have ticket barriers (like on the Tube at the time) but instead had big red gates that the staff would slam shut when the train was going to leave. I wonder when those got removed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also I seem to recall a video where Charing Cross in the 90s didn't have ticket barriers (like on the Tube at the time) but instead had big red gates that the staff would slam shut when the train was going to leave. I wonder when those got removed.

As did Waterloo and Cannon St.

 

[Horizon22]

Suits, briefcases and newspapers. How the commuting world has changed.

Also I seem to recall a video where Charing Cross in the 90s didn't have ticket barriers (like on the Tube at the time) but instead had big red gates that the staff would slam shut when the train was going to leave. I wonder when those got removed.

You can see a video of it on "Old, Dirty and Late". Someone closing them from 14:50.

Here's a clip:

Interestingly you can see brand new Networkers here too!

 

[frankmoh]

You can see a video of it on "Old, Dirty and Late". Someone closing them from 14:50.

Here's a clip:

Interestingly you can see brand new Networkers here too!

I think this was the video! Still, why did they not use separated ticket gates instead of the big door?

(Also very strange seeing a perfectly clean 465, given how the modern SE is with cleaning!)

 

[Benjwri]

Also very strange seeing a perfectly clean 465, given how the modern SE is with cleaning!

I would have to disagree with this, they aren’t great with the 465s, but I find at least on the outside the Electrostars tend to be some of the cleanest on the network.

 

[contrex]

Technically there were 2, although one was specific to only some. I presume the one you're referring to is the Cannon St crash revealing poor bodywork safety. The other that comes to mind is the case of a passenger being murdered en route to Victoria while sat in an individual booth with no access to any other part of the train, which led to all units with that seating layout restricted to peak diagrams.

The Cannon Street bodywork collapses involved Southern Railway style ('Bulleid') coaches on re-used underframes, didn't they? The 5th coach on a 1934 underframe which had been involved in a collision with a locomotive in 1958, and the 6th coach on a 1928 underframe.

 

[The exile]

Oh yes, that too. (It wasnt fitted).

Think it’s more the case (at least initially) that it would have been if the other safety issues hadn’t meant that the stock was on its way out anyway. Lumping them together as “slam-door” was an easy way to describe them to lay-people.

 

[frankmoh]

The EPBs had a working life of 44 years and by 1995 they were considered VERY OLD. Nowadays the Class 318, 319 and 320/321 are coming up to that age but I don't see anyone disparage them as being too old for service.

 

[The exile]

The EPBs had a working life of 44 years and by 1995 they were considered VERY OLD. Nowadays the Class 318, 319 and 320/321 are coming up to that age but I don't see anyone disparage them as being too old for service.

That’s in part what comes of being late examples of old design - it’s not so much the physical age of the train most people care about (they don’t usually know) - but how dated they “feel”. I bet you could refurbish a 306 (without a radical rebuild) such that most people would consider it more modern than the last VEP - whereas it would in fact be nearly 30 years older.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Cannon Street bodywork collapses involved Southern Railway style ('Bulleid') coaches on re-used underframes, didn't they? The 5th coach on a 1934 underframe which had been involved in a collision with a locomotive in 1958, and the 6th coach on a 1928 underframe.

Indeed, but the age of the underframes, and their history, was not the problem. They were, if anything, too robust, as one of them (the 1934 underframe, and despite its previous history) cut right through the rather flimsier (1950s era) superstructure of the adjacent (sixth) carriage.

It was suggested that the large number of door apertures contributed to the weakness of the superstructure, especially as, this being a morning commuter service arriving at a terminus, many of those apertures would not actually be filled by a door at the moment of impact.

 

[frodshamfella]

It was completely commonplace, and most people had it down to a fine art. Indeed you could often see people be out of the train and the door slammed closed before the train had even come to a stand. In those days most people were conscientious enough to close the door behind them as well.

Absolutely, I remember doing it myself.

 

[yorksrob]

It was suggested that the large number of door apertures contributed to the weakness of the superstructure, especially as, this being a morning commuter service arriving at a terminus, many of those apertures would not actually be filled by a door at the moment of impact.

They did make it very easy to get on and off though.

I think the overall conclusion was that the BR mk1 design slammers were structurally a bit stronger than the Bullied design ones (with the door toplights).

 

[frodshamfella]

At time I hated the slam door trains. I commuted from Bexleyheath to both Cannon Street and Charing Cross. I remember if you banged the seats loads of dust came off them. Slide down windows, which could annoyingly slide back up on a hot day. Now I look back at them more fondly.

 

[yorksrob]

At time I hated the slam door trains. I commuted from Bexleyheath to both Cannon Street and Charing Cross. I remember if you banged the seats loads of dust came off them. Slide down windows, which could annoyingly slide back up on a hot day. Now I look back at them more fondly.

I could do with a few droplights on this 185 I'm on now !

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm guilty of many "early disembarking" exploits - and my protocol was:
1) check platform space is clear of people or obstruction.
2) open door fully and ensure it doesn't try to swing back (thus ensuring I and fellow disembarkers aren't hit by it).
3) leap out at a diagonal direction, to avoid being hit by adjacent doors.
4) get legs ready to jog/run as soon as feet connect with platform.

I never performed this with end-vestibule wraparound doors. Only the "fold back" doors on Mk1 derived stock, Mk2a stock and class 310/312 units.

 

[yorksrob]

That’s in part what comes of being late examples of old design - it’s not so much the physical age of the train most people care about (they don’t usually know) - but how dated they “feel”. I bet you could refurbish a 306 (without a radical rebuild) such that most people would consider it more modern than the last VEP - whereas it would in fact be nearly 30 years older.

The same goes for more modern trains. 150's and 159's were only about five years apart, but the 150s are much more dated.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The same goes for more modern trains. 150's and 159's were only about five years apart, but the 150s are much more dated.

The class 312 (built until 1978) and the class 432 4-REP (the final examples built 1974) looked more dated than their ages belied.

 

[yorksrob]

The class 312 (built until 1978) and the class 432 4-REP (the final examples built 1974) looked more dated than their ages belied.

Indeed, although I suppose even then, 50% of the REP's were refurbed 1950's steam stock !

To me, growing up in CEP territory, the unit ends of the CIG's, VEP's, REP's looked much more smart and modern.