Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[baz962]

Wasn't the timetable rewritten to take advantage of the speed increase to 125mph?

Not sure as it became 125 after I started. However a 360 obviously can't do 125 . Going northbound a Sheffield will catch up to a 360 at Wellingborough if hitting top speeds and the Nottingham right on the tail of the Sheffield and that's if you haven't got checked down for a Thameslink. Going southbound for the Nottinghams at least you are on the tail of a 360 from around Luton onwards. Some diagrams are different to others and on some I can leave St Pancras and get to Kettering on time without going over 100/105. And after Wellingborough there is not much at all over 110 and the few linespeeds over that you won't hit if you are stopping. Eg there is some 120 through Loughborough and East Midlands Parkway and a the only 125 is just after Loughborough, but if you are stopping at those stations you won't get over 110 much.

 

[QSK19]

So, how long until the 170's reappear at St Pancras?

The quoted post is from the “master” 810 thread.

I would say November once they finally realise after a couple of tough months that 22 222s (too many 2s!) isn’t sustainable.

However, equally, the answer may be not at all if any of the other speculative options (360 shuttles from Kettering, short-formed services, reducing frequency) are chosen.

 

[sh24]

The quoted post is from the “master” 810 thread.

I would say November once they finally realise after a couple of tough months that 22 222s (too many 2s!) isn’t sustainable.

However, equally, the answer may be not at all if any of the other speculative options (360 shuttles from Kettering, short-formed services, reducing frequency) are chosen.

Ah, apologies hadn't seen this thread.

I'm hoping my project requiring weekly use of the MML is over by then. It's largely a pleasant experience right now.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The quoted post is from the “master” 810 thread.

I would say November once they finally realise after a couple of tough months that 22 222s (too many 2s!) isn’t sustainable.

However, equally, the answer may be not at all if any of the other speculative options (360 shuttles from Kettering, short-formed services, reducing frequency) are chosen.

I imagine the FC will be reduced on the 7 car sets to increase capacity.

 

[dosxuk]

I imagine the FC will be reduced on the 7 car sets to increase capacity.

The 7 car sets are the ones planned to leave first.

 

[QSK19]

Indeed. And related to that point, would a full-time declassification of all FC be viable as a stopgap option or is FC revenue too lucrative to ignore even for a few months?

 

[liamf656]

Indeed. And related to that point, would a full-time declassification of all FC be viable as a stopgap option or is FC revenue too lucrative to ignore even for a few months?

I'm not sure the RMT would be particularly happy at that as it undermines the First Class Host grade

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm not sure the RMT would be particularly happy at that as it undermines the First Class Host grade

It would be temporary as they will be needed on the 810's but think of the consequences if the route is forced to constrain the traffic those passengers could choose to go elsewhere and not return let alone the political damage it does.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It would be temporary as they will be needed on the 810's but think of the consequences if the route is forced to constrain the traffic those passengers could choose to go elsewhere and not return let alone the political damage it does.

So could the first class passengers.

 

[londonmidland]

With the increasing unreliability of 222s, with them breaking down near daily, it’s going to be increasingly difficult to maintain a reliable timetable once the first few start to go.

Less scope for set swaps etc. They’re being pushed to the limit at the moment. Very little dwell time between journeys so they’re constantly on the go.

 

[Trainbike46]

Okay, I can't be the only one who's noticed this on the forum, but what is up with fleet maintenance at EMR?

There is regular reports about all EMR fleets* being unreliable, but such issues didn't generally exist with previous operators. Are the EMR depots short on maintenance staff? Are there issues with trains actually reaching their depot? What's happened that all EMR fleets are apparently so unreliable now?

*Just the 170s, 220s, and 360s to be fair. I've not yet seen anyone saying the 158s are unreliable.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

As usual, MML passengers will suffer because of the clueless DfT.

Or in this case because a certain manufacturer has (allegedly) made such a balls of a certain project that the new trains are running c.3 years late, apparently.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Okay, I can't be the only one who's noticed this on the forum, but what is up with fleet maintenance at EMR?

Biot privy to any sensitive information, but two pertinent points are (specific to EMR), the 222s are working harder than ever at 20 years old. The HSTs left, the 180s have been and gone.

They are leaving, and managers of almost any asset type are going to at least be tempted to skimp on planned/pre-emptive maintenance as you aren't interested in the asset's long-term health any more. You are interested in saving a few quid. Where something goes wrong, you're more likely to try to bodge the broken bit back together with duct tape than by a new one.

 

[liamf656]

Okay, I can't be the only one who's noticed this on the forum, but what is up with fleet maintenance at EMR?

There is regular reports about all EMR fleets* being unreliable, but such issues didn't generally exist with previous operators. Are the EMR depots short on maintenance staff? Are there issues with trains actually reaching their depot? What's happened that all EMR fleets are apparently so unreliable now?

*Just the 170s, 220s, and 360s to be fair. I've not yet seen anyone saying the 158s are unreliable.

It's been a challenge recently to get all fleets up to a good standard for various reasons

158s because it's been difficult to source wheelsets and 170s having to be stretched a bit more than they'd like. I believe they're in a better position than they were but I'm not clued up on the regional fleet so I'm happy to be corrected if wrong

360s because heavy maintenance is done at Northampton. I believe they are/will be utilising Bedford Cauldwell a lot more nowadays so theoretically it'll get better on that side, but we do still see various failures and short formed sets, especially during the current heatwave. Also happy to be corrected on that

Staying on topic though, 222s have been difficult ever since Hitachi took over maintenance. Gone are the days where they had spare units to send to Central Rivers, returning just like new. It's clear they are well overdue any major exams as the intention was to be rid of the fleet by 2022. I don't see it getting much better anytime soon, with the various faults ranging from toilets locked out to engines being shut down. 222002 is off long term as well which doesn't help matters either, but when the 810s (eventually) enter service it'll hopefully be a very welcome increase in reliability, especially with the increase in units

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

when the 810s (eventually) enter service it'll hopefully be a very welcome increase in reliability, especially with the increase in units

As long as they see better availability than their GWR and LNER cousins...

 

[43066]

360s because heavy maintenance is done at Northampton. I believe they are/will be utilising Bedford Cauldwell a lot more nowadays so theoretically it'll get better on that side, but we do still see various failures and short formed sets, especially during the current heatwave. Also happy to be corrected on that

Drivers’ cab aircon being weak and failing entirely during hot weather was the cause of yesterday’s issues, which resulted in the Connect service being decimated (described as “more trains than usual requiring maintenance”).

Enough units were involved that Connect became essentially unviable, with Nottingham IC services calling additionally at Bedford and Wellingborough, and Luton/airport passengers directed to Thameslink (a contingency which worked pretty well, to be fair). This is likely to repeat today and tomorrow, at least to some degree, given forecast temperatures.

It has also been blamed internally on the units needing to be dragged to Northampton, but is a recurring issue that doesn’t seem to occur with other Desiro fleets, perhaps suggesting the 360s were specified differently from new. It’s also an issue that has been raised time and again as it happens during every summer heatwave, yet never seems to be properly dealt with.

As long as they see better availability than their GWR and LNER cousins...

Indeed. They’ll be doing well to be more reliable than the 222s which have AIUI been one of the most reliable fleets in the UK for much of their tenure at EMR. The thing that seems to have changed recently is the maintenance regime.

Based on the current showing, where 810s haven’t even survived initial testing without needing complete rewiring, I’m not too confident…

 

[The exile]

That's just how the engineering industry has changed now you can effectively computer model pretty much anything

On the ground experience suggests either that you can’t or that they don’t - otherwise everything would work straight out of the box, bar the odd shake-down issue on individual units.

 

[D365]

Based on the current showing, where 810s haven’t even survived initial testing without needing complete rewiring, I’m not too confident…

Regardless of whether or not this is true - a multiple unit will never be completely rewired in their lifetime unless for whatever reason it is gutted and rebuilt. So whatever is going on currently should not an indication of everyday reliability once the fleet is bedded in…

 

[JonathanH]

222002 is off long term as well which doesn't help matters either

I noticed that it worked what looks like some sort of test run on Saturday.

Realtime Trains | 5Z01 0810 Etches Park Sdgs to Etches Park Sdgs | 14/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z01 0810 departure from Etches Park Sdgs to Etches Park Sdgs on 14/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What is wrong with it?

 

[43096]

Indeed. They’ll be doing well to be more reliable than the 222s which have AIUI been one of the most reliable fleets in the UK for much of their tenure at EMR. The thing that seems to have changed recently is the maintenance regime.

The cynic in me notes that Hitachi are now responsible for 222 maintenance and they would want to set a low bar for the Hitachi trains that replace them.

 

[Nym]

Regardless of whether or not this is true - a multiple unit will never be completely rewired in their lifetime unless for whatever reason it is gutted and rebuilt. So whatever is going on currently should not an indication of everyday reliability once the fleet is bedded in…

I will raise you 1973 Tube Stock on that…
Complete rewire by EuroRail during the refurbishment.
(Surpprising why they have wiring issues…)

 

[RailWonderer]

The cynic in me notes that Hitachi are now responsible for 222 maintenance and they would want to set a low bar for the Hitachi trains that replace them.

More like they don't have the best expertise of maintaining a 20 year old Bombardier train. Anything Hitachi builds today will be more reliable than older rolling stock once the early teething problems are sorted, which is the same anytime a new fleet is introduced into service.

As for stopgaps, there aren't enough 170s and reliability isn't there to have them replace 222s before 810s come into service, because they'll need to double up 170s if they are going to be used on IC routes. Realistically I think they'll extend the lease on the 222s for another year.

 

[43066]

The cynic in me notes that Hitachi are now responsible for 222 maintenance and they would want to set a low bar for the Hitachi trains that replace them.

I wouldn’t be surprised - the decline in standards has been rapid and very noticeable.

Anything Hitachi builds today will be more reliable than older rolling stock once the early teething problems are sorted, which is the same anytime a new fleet is introduced into service.

That’s demonstrably untrue when you consider the reliability of the 222s compared to the early IEPs, for example, which have now been in service for almost a decade, so can hardly still be said to be experiencing teething problems.

Realistically I think they'll extend the lease on the 222s for another year.

This won’t be an option for the units that have been earmarked for Lumo, as previously discussed.

 

[Nym]

More like they don't have the best expertise of maintaining a 20 year old Bombardier train. Anything Hitachi builds today will be more reliable than older rolling stock once the early teething problems are sorted, which is the same anytime a new fleet is introduced into service.

As for stopgaps, there aren't enough 170s and reliability isn't there to have them replace 222s before 810s come into service, because they'll need to double up 170s if they are going to be used on IC routes. Realistically I think they'll extend the lease on the 222s for another year.

Except that Eversholt don't need to extend it. And why would they accept a 1 year lease to jeopardise what could be a 15+ year lease?

 

[Brubulus]

Except that Eversholt don't need to extend it. And why would they accept a 1 year lease to jeopardise what could be a 15+ year lease?

The lumo lease is only short-term, FirstGroup have ordered trains from Hitachi which I would expect would be used on London-Stirling.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

The lumo lease is only short-term, FirstGroup have ordered trains from Hitachi which I would expect would be used on London-Stirling.

Lumo currently plan to utilise the 222s on the Stirling route until 2030, unless their Track Access Agreement is extended beyond that date, at which point an order for new trains (from the optional additional sets under the current order with Hitachi) would be viable. The current firm order is for sets to cover the Carmarthen services and capacity enhancements to existing FirstGroup Open Access services.

 

[43066]

The lumo lease is only short-term, FirstGroup have ordered trains from Hitachi which I would expect would be used on London-Stirling.

It’s still going to run for several years.

 

[RailWonderer]

Except that Eversholt don't need to extend it. And why would they accept a 1 year lease to jeopardise what could be a 15+ year lease?

If EMR tell them they need them another year on the lease and the DfT authorises it (how can they not if the MML would be without trains?) then why would Eversholt say no? The lease for the new 810s wouldn't be jeopardised, they'll be dealyed but they're still arriving. We're not talking about a few rural branch lines in Norfolk or the Valleys but a key artery of the network.

 

[43066]

If EMR tell them they need them another year on the lease and the DfT authorises it (how can they not if the MML would be without trains?) then why would Eversholt say no? The lease for the new 810s wouldn't be jeopardised, they'll be dealyed but they're still arriving. We're not talking about a few rural branch lines in Norfolk or the Valleys but a key artery of the network.

The DfT can’t “authorise it”, because the contracts are between the ROSCO and the relevant operators. EMR won’t be “without trains” if some other solution is found, whether it’s redeploying existing stock or hiring it in from elsewhere - 180s for example.

 

[NCT]

If EMR tell them they need them another year on the lease and the DfT authorises it (how can they not if the MML would be without trains?) then why would Eversholt say no? The lease for the new 810s wouldn't be jeopardised, they'll be dealyed but they're still arriving. We're not talking about a few rural branch lines in Norfolk or the Valleys but a key artery of the network.

What's jeopardised isn't the Class 810 lease, but a different, longer term customer for the Class 222s that Eversholt may well consider to be more to their advantage (I won't speculate, but there's enough chat on this topic).