Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[Aspen90]

Thinking about what happened with other cascades, presumably the actual answer is that any delays to the 810 introduction simply delay the release of 222s to Scotrail.
Haven't there been situations where trains have moved - on paper - to a new TOC only to be immediately subleased back to the previous TOC because the replacements weren't ready.

Back to the exam question:

A combination of buses, ticket acceptance on other TOC, and nothing.

EMR had been batting off the departure of the 222’s due to 810 delay but DfT have apparently told them it’s happening as Scotrail can’t wait forever and for EMR to come up with an interim solution. This interim solution will be a reduction in the timetable and 170’s. If of course Hitachi don’t pull their finger out that is…

 

[duffield]

EMR had been batting off the departure of the 222’s due to 810 delay but DfT have apparently told them it’s happening as Scotrail can’t wait forever and for EMR to come up with an interim solution. This interim solution will be a reduction in the timetable and 170’s. If of course Hitachi don’t pull their finger out that is…

Given how much the East Midlands has been neglected and had repeated broken promises on the transport front by previous governments, that would go down like a lead balloon. But Labour now has a *lot* of Labour MPs in the area, a Labour mayor for Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, and is the location of the new GBR HQ in Derby, so massive timetable cut or capacity cuts involving 170s would be such a political hot potato and so embarrassing that I think some way will be found to avoid it.

 

[Nottingham59]

As for the diagrams, they're not massively complex. There are already 5 "810 ready" diagrams that don't involve splitting and joining, and more with a couple of slight changes here and there

Thank you. Is it right to assume those five diagrams for single units, and not for pairs?

And do you know what proportion of staff will be need training on 810s before those diagrams can be converted to 810 operation?

 

[liamf656]

Thank you. Is it right to assume those five diagrams for single units, and not for pairs?

Yes those stay single all day

And do you know what proportion of staff will be need training on 810s before those diagrams can be converted to 810 operation?

I'm not sure on that one but I'm going to assume that every depot will need training before services commence unlike otherwise suggested, just because of the complexity of the staff diagrams, but that's only my guess

 

[Helvellyn]

Given how much the East Midlands has been neglected and had repeated broken promises on the transport front by previous governments, that would go down like a lead balloon. But Labour now has a *lot* of Labour MPs in the area, a Labour mayor for Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, and is the location of the new GBR HQ in Derby, so massive timetable cut or capacity cuts involving 170s would be such a political hot potato and so embarrassing that I think some way will be found to avoid it.

You're being overly optimistic I think. With Scottish elections next year the DfT keeping 222s at EMR would be a boon for the SNP in allowing them to say why vote Labour because they'll always put England first! Plus if the 222s are due to be refurbished it'd further throw plans out.

If anything had to go on EMR I wonder if it would be the fast Nottingham, possibly with a DMU shuttle to Grantham to connect with LNER instead? Journey times might be roughly comparable if properly planned, even more so if they could also run a Nottingham to East Mids Parkway shuttle to connect with the Sheffield stopper.

 

[PG]

EMR had been batting off the departure of the 222’s due to 810 delay but DfT have apparently told them it’s happening as Scotrail can’t wait forever

With Scottish elections next year the DfT keeping 222s at EMR would be a boon for the SNP in allowing them to say why vote Labour because they'll always put England first!

I'm surprised that DfT are worried about the services run by a devolved administration, would have thought it'd be a case of "Not my problem jock!"

 

[Helvellyn]

I'm surprised that DfT are worried about the services run by a devolved administration, would have thought it'd be a case of "Not my problem jock!"

Okay, put it another way. Can DfT force the leasing company to keep 222s with EMR if the contracts have expired and another company is ready to pick up the lease? It's one thing forcing DfT managed TOCs to come to "arrangements", quite another if it's a devolved administration (or Open Access Operator).

 

[PG]

Can DfT force the leasing company to keep 222s with EMR if the contracts have expired and another company is ready to pick up the lease?

That does indeed make more sense if it is the Rosco driving the car and DfT are reacting to that scenario.

 

[duffield]

You're being overly optimistic I think. With Scottish elections next year the DfT keeping 222s at EMR would be a boon for the SNP in allowing them to say why vote Labour because they'll always put England first! Plus if the 222s are due to be refurbished it'd further throw plans out.

If anything had to go on EMR I wonder if it would be the fast Nottingham, possibly with a DMU shuttle to Grantham to connect with LNER instead? Journey times might be roughly comparable if properly planned, even more so if they could also run a Nottingham to East Mids Parkway shuttle to connect with the Sheffield stopper.

"Some way being found" doesn't necessarily mean Scotrail introduction being delayed though. For example, when they go off lease, the refurb process won't be capable of taking them all, in fact most of them would likely be sitting idle for a long time; they could be leased back to EMR on condition that they are drip-fed into the refurb process as soon as, but not before the refurb process is ready to receive them. Or, there are apparently some class 180s sitting around idle; these have run on the MML before, and maybe some drivers only need a refresher course? I just think that any lengthy period of significant timetable cuts or 170 substitutions, or other solutions involving Grantham will be avoided somehow.

 

[Fishandbananas]

As much as i want as little disruption as possible, and the 810's to come as soon as possible, it would be cool to see some 170's and 180's in St Pancras again (purely from a train enthusiasts perspective)

 

[D365]

Are there still a few spare 221’s knocking about

But you can't run a 221 and a 222 in the same train. Probably many detailed differences between them too.

It would make interworking difficult on the Nottingham/Sheffield diagrams, but if the commercials can be worked out with Beacon Rail, 221s seem like an obvious stop-gap to me. Especially as I’m lead to believe that they were refreshed by Avanti.

 

[yorksrob]

EMR had been batting off the departure of the 222’s due to 810 delay but DfT have apparently told them it’s happening as Scotrail can’t wait forever and for EMR to come up with an interim solution. This interim solution will be a reduction in the timetable and 170’s. If of course Hitachi don’t pull their finger out that is…

This is clearly nonsense spouted by the DfT - the Scotrail HST's aren't going anywhere and can clearly be kept on a while.

As usual, MML passengers will suffer because of the clueless DfT.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==

You're being overly optimistic I think. With Scottish elections next year the DfT keeping 222s at EMR would be a boon for the SNP in allowing them to say why vote Labour because they'll always put England first! Plus if the 222s are due to be refurbished it'd further throw plans out.

If anything had to go on EMR I wonder if it would be the fast Nottingham, possibly with a DMU shuttle to Grantham to connect with LNER instead? Journey times might be roughly comparable if properly planned, even more so if they could also run a Nottingham to East Mids Parkway shuttle to connect with the Sheffield stopper.

If DfT are worried about Scottish sentiment, they could perhaps sweeten the pill by paying some of the extended leasing costs of the HST's.

 

[ChrisC]

This is clearly nonsense spouted by the DfT - the Scotrail HST's aren't going anywhere and can clearly be kept on a while.

As usual, MML passengers will suffer because of the clueless DfT.

EMR regional services had to wait long enough for some of the 170’s to be released from other areas. There were big delays in 170’s being transferred from the West Midlands because their new trains weren’t ready. Why can’t Scotland now wait? It’s always the East Midlands that has the inconvenience.

 

[43066]

EMR had been batting off the departure of the 222’s due to 810 delay but DfT have apparently told them it’s happening as Scotrail can’t wait forever and for EMR to come up with an interim solution. This interim solution will be a reduction in the timetable and 170’s. If of course Hitachi don’t pull their finger out that is…

Where have you heard that, out of interest? It sounds highly implausible to put it mildly and hasn’t (AFAIK) been suggested internally at all.

It would be ludicrous as - quite apart from the extensive training needs - 170s lack capacity and wouldn’t have anything like the performance to keep time
for the IC route. It very much sounds to me like an unsubstantiated rumour.

The 222s will simply continue until they’re displaced by the 810s is my understanding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Scotrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

These timings don’t suggest there will be any need for a stopgap - the plan at the moment is a November entry into passenger service for the 810s which would allow the first 222s to be withdrawn on a one for one basis as the replacements are introduced.

If the 810 entry into service slips the 222s continuing is the only logical scenario.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It isn't as implausible as it sounds.

 

[Aspen90]

Where have you heard that, out of interest? It sounds highly implausible to put it mildly and hasn’t (AFAIK) been suggested internally at all.

It would be ludicrous as - quite apart from the extensive training needs - 170s lack capacity and wouldn’t have anything like the performance to keep time
for the IC route. It very much sounds to me like an unsubstantiated rumour.

The 222s will simply continue until they’re displaced by the 810s is my understanding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==



These timings don’t suggest there will be any need for a stopgap - the plan at the moment is a November entry into passenger service for the 810s which would allow the first 222s to be withdrawn on a one for one basis as the replacements are introduced.

If the 810 entry into service slips the 222s continuing is the only logical scenario.

Where have you heard that, out of interest? It sounds highly implausible to put it mildly and hasn’t (AFAIK) been suggested internally at all.

It would be ludicrous as - quite apart from the extensive training needs - 170s lack capacity and wouldn’t have anything like the performance to keep time
for the IC route. It very much sounds to me like an unsubstantiated rumour.

The 222s will simply continue until they’re displaced by the 810s is my understanding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==



These timings don’t suggest there will be any need for a stopgap - the plan at the moment is a November entry into passenger service for the 810s which would allow the first 222s to be withdrawn on a one for one basis as the replacements are introduced.

If the 810 entry into service slips the 222s continuing is the only logical scenario.

From the big purple building itself on Hudson Way Last week…

 

[Trainman40083]

Where have you heard that, out of interest? It sounds highly implausible to put it mildly and hasn’t (AFAIK) been suggested internally at all.

It would be ludicrous as - quite apart from the extensive training needs - 170s lack capacity and wouldn’t have anything like the performance to keep time
for the IC route. It very much sounds to me like an unsubstantiated rumour.

The 222s will simply continue until they’re displaced by the 810s is my understanding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==



These timings don’t suggest there will be any need for a stopgap - the plan at the moment is a November entry into passenger service for the 810s which would allow the first 222s to be withdrawn on a one for one basis as the replacements are introduced.

If the 810 entry into service slips the 222s continuing is the only logical scenario.

Reminded me of a few years ago, when a double 156 covered for a 222 unit working Kettering to Sheffield... And at Derby it was almost on time. .

 

[Clarence Yard]

What will be happening is that the DfT have asked EMR to give them options if the 810 sets are late and the 222 sets have to go elsewhere.

This is standard DfT practise when new stock is likely to be late. It doesn’t mean that the 222 sets would actually go anywhere else (no contracts have actually been signed) but they want to know what their options are and how much each would cost.

 

[Snow1964]

Okay, put it another way. Can DfT force the leasing company to keep 222s with EMR if the contracts have expired and another company is ready to pick up the lease? It's one thing forcing DfT managed TOCs to come to "arrangements", quite another if it's a devolved administration (or Open Access Operator).

There is usually a clause that allows extension to lease, but they are nearly always by (mutual) agreement. Not of the form that the person leasing can unilaterally demand a continuation, especially if they have already had an extension. However lease terms are usually commercially sensitive so not available for public to check the terms.

Of course does rather become troublesome if EMR (with DfT behind them) says can we have few extra months, whilst someone else is asking to lease them for a few years which would be more profitable for LeaseCo. But might be resolvable if rather expensive.

 

[43066]

From the big purple building itself on Hudson Way Last week…

Ok thanks. I wonder who actually said it - nothing has been discussed elsewhere.

What will be happening is that the DfT have asked EMR to give them options if the 810 sets are late and the 222 sets have to go elsewhere.

This is standard DfT practise when new stock is likely to be late. It doesn’t mean that the 222 sets would actually go anywhere else (no contracts have actually been signed) but they want to know what their options are and how much each would cost.

Perhaps that’s what’s going on then. The only way it could possibly work is if they ran them as five or six car formations, and only Derby crews are trained up on them, nobody at Kettering or St P. It would quite frankly be a nightmare for crew and passengers.

They’d have to run training courses in parallel on the 810s and the 170s!

 

[Failed Unit]

EMR regional services had to wait long enough for some of the 170’s to be released from other areas. There were big delays in 170’s being transferred from the West Midlands because their new trains weren’t ready. Why can’t Scotland now wait? It’s always the East Midlands that has the inconvenience.

Not just the 170s, Anglia kept the 156s when the 755s had delays entering services, resulting in EMR cancelations. It would be very had to take if EMR is forced to release units, however when they needed cascaded units they were basically told tough

 

[LowLevel]

Ok thanks. I wonder who actually said it - nothing has been discussed elsewhere.



Perhaps that’s what’s going on then. The only way it could possibly work is if they ran them as five or six car formations, and only Derby crews are trained up on them, nobody at Kettering or St P. It would quite frankly be a nightmare for crew and passengers.

They’d have to run training courses in parallel on the 810s and the 170s!

I've certainly heard it from several impeccable sources now.

Just imagine the fun when 170xxx decides it's had enough and isn't playing as they are prone to doing at West Hampstead in the middle of the evening peak.

They're horrendously unreliable at the moment and would I think be a liability anywhere south of Bedford.

 

[43066]

I've certainly heard it from several impeccable sources now.

I honestly don’t know whether to laugh or cry…

 

[duffield]

I'm considering sending a letter to my MP along the lines shown below (early draft); I'm trying to keep it as simple, to the point, non-technical and non-jargon-y as possible to avoid eyes glazing over. Suggestions welcome.

Dear X,

I am very concerned that the Intercity train service from Nottingham and the East Midlands to London is about to be seriously downgraded for an indefinite period of time.

Rumours are circulating widely that our current fleet of Intercity trains are to be removed in December (for re-use elsewhere after refurbishment), and because our long-promised new fleet of trains will not be ready due to repeated delays, we will be left with a degraded timetable and some unsuitable cast off regional trains with insufficient capacity on the vital London route. Apart from the inconvenience and likely loss of passengers and revenue to the railway, this would also be a negative for the local economy due to its adverse effect on business travel to the region.

I would be much obliged if you could pursue this issue with the Rail Minister, ideally collectively with other East Midlands MPs whose constituents in Derby, Leicester and Sheffield would also be badly affected, and firstly determine if it is true that this is being seriously considered, and, if so, apply pressure for another, better solution.

The East Midlands has suffered many years of neglect, delay and broken promises relating to rail transport under previous governments. Many of us were hoping for better under the new government, especially with the significant numbers of new local Labour MPs and the election of the new East Midlands mayor. Please help to ensure we are not let down yet again.

Yours sincerely

[My Name]

 

[baz962]

Ok thanks. I wonder who actually said it - nothing has been discussed elsewhere.



Perhaps that’s what’s going on then. The only way it could possibly work is if they ran them as five or six car formations, and only Derby crews are trained up on them, nobody at Kettering or St P. It would quite frankly be a nightmare for crew and passengers.

They’d have to run training courses in parallel on the 810s and the 170s!

Good lord I hope we won't have to. Put it to a senior DI earlier and apparently they used to. I will not be happy.

 

[Stossgebet]

I see a few comments here about the DfT picking up a bill, for whatever short term solution is required.
Why isn't Hitachi (as manfactorer) or the leasing company (as purchasers) on the hook for associated costs of their delayed new trains?

 

[Yew]

If anything had to go on EMR I wonder if it would be the fast Nottingham, possibly with a DMU shuttle to Grantham to connect with LNER instead? Journey times might be roughly comparable if properly planned, even more so if they could also run a Nottingham to East Mids Parkway shuttle to connect with the Sheffield stopper.

Where exactly do you think the passengers are going to go, when the Sheffield trains are already crammed?

 

[Helvellyn]

Where exactly do you think the passengers are going to go, when the Sheffield trains are already crammed?

Where are they going if any 222s go off lease before sufficient 810s enter service?

 

[Yew]

Six more 810s, but four of the 222s have seven coaches instead of five, so effectively the uplift is only two units.

So still a significant decrease from, say 2019 capacity? This seems like it was a bad idea from the beginning

 

[fgwrich]

But you can't run a 221 and a 222 in the same train. Probably many detailed differences between them too.

It doesn’t stop them running single 222 sets.

It also didn’t stop them operating a microfleet of 180s either.

Should the Wrexham & Shropshire plan not come to fruition, a short term lease of a number of 221s isn’t a bad shout. At least they are mechanically, and quite possibly cab wise, more familiar to the 222s than anything else.

But like everything in this thread, that is purely speculative.