Potential timetable for the Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester route once TRU is complete

[quantinghome]

Useful update at a recent TfN meeting: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s10675/Transpennine Route Upgrade TFN Summer 25.pdf

TRU and wider planned investments will deliver significant timetable enhancements:
• Six fast/semi-fast services between Manchester and Leeds
• Improved links to/from Manchester Airport, Newcastle and Hull
• Two local stopping trains per hour between Leeds – Huddersfield (all day) and Manchester –
Huddersfield (primarily in the peaks) to be operated by NTL
• Substantial improvement in hourly capacity available by spreading demand across fast/semi-
fast/local services
• Assumption is that new trains will be deployed from 2029-30 on routes to Saltburn, Scarborough

It includes this slide showing the proposed service:

 

[superkev]

Useful update at a recent TfN meeting: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s10675/Transpennine Route Upgrade TFN Summer 25.pdf

It includes this slide showing the proposed service:

View attachment 182533

Wonder what happened to the current useful service avoiding Leeds running via Castleford and Wakefield.
K

 

[quantinghome]

Wonder what happened to the current useful service avoiding Leeds running via Castleford and Wakefield.
K

Not sure. The diagram only shows services directly on the Transpennine route. It doesn't include local services from Liverpool to Manchester or Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse which definitely would be running. So I don't think it tells us anything about the future of that service. Although, the four-track layout from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe would mean you could run a service to Wakefield and beyond without interacting with the fast Transpennine service, so there's nothing to stop it happening if the demand is there.

 

[IanXC]

Useful update at a recent TfN meeting: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s10675/Transpennine Route Upgrade TFN Summer 25.pdf

It includes this slide showing the proposed service:

View attachment 182533

So Hull has to repeat the battle to get "express" services to Liverpool once again eh.

 

[nr758123]

So Hull has to repeat the battle to get "express" services to Liverpool once again eh.

I've seen this slide before and I don't think it has been updated since the Hull services were diverted to Liverpool and the Scarborough services to Piccadilly.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wouldn't take much from it as I'm sure they've said there is no capacity for a second TPE to Newcastle.

 

[Andyh82]

The map seems to show two trains to Manchester Airport as well. I’m not sure the TRU has anything to do with that, they could run it now if it wasn’t for the lack of capacity through Platforms 13/14

Seems a bit odd excluding the Leeds-Manchester via Brighouse service, as to most stations besides Deighton, that could be a 3rd stopper per hour

 

[A S Leib]

Presumably Saltburn services will still serve Redcar Central and Hull services won't run fast to Selby so it isn't that it won't be served at all, but I'd guess that the plan for Chester-le-Street would still be 1tph on TPE and nothing else outside Northern limited services? The same going for Thirsk with Teesside services (apart from Grand Central).

Is 1tph enough for Stalybridge to Victoria if Piccadilly's 4tph, assuming there aren't more Northern services?

 

[cle]

So Hull has to repeat the battle to get "express" services to Liverpool once again eh.

How much demand is there from Liverpool to Hull? I can't imagine even that much from Manchester.

 

[Halish Railway]

The map seems to show two trains to Manchester Airport as well. I’m not sure the TRU has anything to do with that, they could run it now if it wasn’t for the lack of capacity through Platforms 13/14

Seems a bit odd excluding the Leeds-Manchester via Brighouse service, as to most stations besides Deighton, that could be a 3rd stopper per hour

The restoration of 2tph to Manchester Airport is dependent on the rebuilding of Manchester Oxford Road to provide an extra two paths on the Castlefield corridor. I’m not sure when that’ll be completed though.

Manchester Oxford Road Station remodelling - Network Rail

We are working on proposals to make significant improvements at Manchester Oxford Road Station, to increase capacity on the railway.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Manchester Oxford Road Station is situated on the Castlefield Corridor, a busy stretch of railway between Deansgate and Piccadilly stations. It is a key interchange station, providing connectivity to the wider rail network.

Due to the current layout of the station and tracks, movement of trains through the station is limited. This is hurting both train performance and limiting growth. Without remodelling the station, we will not be able to increase the numbers of passengers or trains calling at Oxford Road. This is especially important at peak times when passenger flow is already limited.

I wouldn’t expect the Leeds to Manchester and beyond via Brighouse service to make all station calls between Mirfield and Leeds. Accelerating this service would be a good outcome.

One other thing is that it doesn’t mention what stock will be used on the Newcastle services. I can assume they could be worked by the 802s as per present, but that seems like a waste of a bi-mode train.

 

[A S Leib]

How much demand is there from Liverpool to Hull? I can't imagine even that much from Manchester.

39,000 per year to Manchester Victoria (slightly behind Hull–Sheffield and ahead of Scarborough) and 9,000 to Liverpool (journeys attributed to Lime Street and Central). I'm not sure if there are any common splitting points on that route.

 

[dodecahedron67]

One other thing is that it doesn’t mention what stock will be used on the Newcastle services. I can assume they could be worked by the 802s as per present, but that seems like a waste of a bi-mode train.

Remember TPE are in the process of beginning to procure new stock

 

[Zomboid]

Though the slide suggests that Saltburn, Scarborough and Hull will be operated by new trains, so presumably they're buying more bi-modes.

 

[BranstonJnc]

Useful update at a recent TfN meeting: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s10675/Transpennine Route Upgrade TFN Summer 25.pdf

It includes this slide showing the proposed service:

View attachment 182533

I don't like the look of this too much.

I still prefer the idea of Airport - Piccadilly - Victoria being some sort of fast, longer local unit, possibly using the wires and going into the bay at Stalybridge.

With that, you could readily run the 'stopping' services to Huddersfield off the low-numbered bays at Victoria, creating the space for four fast trains an hour off Piccadilly main shed, which probably has significant performance benefits not running them into the Castlefield corridor.

There's a few obvious things here, such as if the electrification is continuous from Stalybridge (and Manchester) to Leeds, via Huddersfield and Dewsbury, then running some sort of dubious bi-mode to run the service via Kirkgate to York is unlikely to be sensible. But, there's also limited sense, if you have four through platforms, not to run the stopping service throughout, recessing at Huddersfield both ways as a longer dwell to keep the timetable upright.

As for the Liverpools, quite why Scarborough would need the through service I just do not know. Surely you'd run a Liverpool to Newcastle, and a Liverpool to Hull? You've got bi-mode trains and clearly need to keep them for a Scarborough, so there's not even an excuse. And if you flight the corresponding Piccadilly to Hull and Piccadilly to Newcastle, those can make the extra couple of stops (Staly / Dewsbury), and get close to 30-minute gapped at York (Newcastles) and Leeds (Hulls) in both directions?

 

[cle]

I'm surprised to not see more tph on the non-Huddersfield stations - I had expected more skip stopping to enable 3-4 tph for the local stations which might actually induce demand - before anyone says there isn't any. In this scenario, many don't have services either side of Hudds - e.g. no Mirfield or Batley to Manchester.

Given the rebuilds and the disruption for all of the 'shacks' and the capacity works, it feels underwhelming - like 1tph extra per hour and a few mins off, but nothing that transformational for many along the route.

If the shuttles were 4tph, or even 3 - I'd see that as an improvement. Cut some buses.

I know there will be some Hudds-Wakefield and the Vic-Brighouse-Leeds route - both might add some local calls?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At the 2021 census, Ashton-under-Lyne was said to have a population of 48,604 and is currently the only intermediate station between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge. Is that town not considered worthy enough of inclusion?

 

[Zomboid]

I think a major the point of TPE is the "Express" part - if it calls everywhere then it'll be too slow on the longer distance flows which it's supposed to be handling.

I assume there's some northern services between Victoria and Stalybridge that will serve Ashton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think a major the point of TPE is the "Express" part - if it calls everywhere then it'll be too slow on the longer distance flows which it's supposed to be handling.

I assume there's some northern services between Victoria and Stalybridge that will serve Ashton.

Even at sizeable towns?

 

[Zomboid]

Even at sizeable towns?

Evidently. I don't know where people from Ashton want to go, but if it's mostly Manchester then they have the tram and Northern will be providing a service - and it would be inappropriate to stop long distance express trains there to load up with passengers going one stop. The minority of people going east can change at Stalybridge.

If people from Ashton mostly want to go to Huddersfield and Leeds though, then there should be calls in some of the trains that pass.

Looking at the map and the existence of the tram, I'd expect that Ashton Under Lyne is more of a suburb of Manchester than it is a source or sink for travel across the Pennines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Evidently. I don't know where people from Ashton want to go, but if it's mostly Manchester then they have the tram and Northern will be providing a service - and it would be inappropriate to stop long distance express trains there to load up with passengers going one stop. The minority of people going east can change at Stalybridge.

You are most unfair in your Oxford-based views about Ashton under Lyne. Do you think the town is populated by local yokels who have no wish to visit places such as York with its National Railway Museum, York Minster, yet you do not make similar mention of the residents of Stalybridge. Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge are the only two stations of note eastwards of Manchester Victoria station before "the big tunnel under the Pennines".

 

[Zomboid]

I said I don't know.

I would expect that it's a Manchester focussed place based on the geography, but if the population actually want to go east then it would be appropriate for trains going that way to call.

So what are the stats? What proportion of travellers go further east than Stalybridge? (Appreciating that this is not a flawless method of determining demand, but it's a start). Manchester is bigger and nearer than the likes of Leeds & York, so the gravity model would suggest that it's a much bigger draw.

Stalybridge gets a better deal by virtue of being an interchange.

 

[A S Leib]

You are most unfair in your Oxford-based views about Ashton under Lyne. Do you think the town is populated by local yokels who have no wish to visit places such as York with its National Railway Museum, York Minster, yet you do not make similar mention of the residents of Stalybridge. Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge are the only two stations eastward of Manchester Victoria station before "the big tunnel under the Pennines".

Stalybridge doesn't have the tram whilst something needs to provide services between both and Manchester.

As you suggested that they were uninformed on the situation whilst based in Oxford, I think the best comparison's Didcot; a sizeable town with good connections west and east but skipped over by CrossCountry services.

 

[Brubulus]

If anyone involved is able to know if this is infrastructure limited, or if it would be possible to force more fasts through long term?

The reason I am asking is in the unlikely event that a high speed railway reaches Manchester, it would be substantially faster to reach London and Birmingham from Leeds via Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stalybridge doesn't have the tram whilst something needs to provide services between both and Manchester.

As you suggested that they were uninformed on the situation whilst based in Oxford, I think the best comparison's Didcot; a sizeable town with good connections west and east but skipped over by CrossCountry services.

But the tram is nowt to do with TRU...or is it? It does show though that Ashton-under-Lyne is the major settlement in Tameside. Talking of other modes of transport, compare the bus stations in both Ashton-under-Lyne and in Stalybridge and the number of settlements served by them. Let us remember that this is a Speculative Discussion thread.

 

[stevieinselby]

But the tram is nowt to do with TRU...or is it? It does show though that Ashton-under-Lyne is the major settlement in Tameside. Talking of other modes of transport, compare the bus stations in both Ashton-under-Lyne and in Stalybridge and the number of settlements served by them. Let us remember that this is a Speculative Discussion thread.

Ashton is a similar size to Morley or Batley. Should stops there be added to TPX as well?
Those three extra stops would negate most of the journey time improvements being brought about by TRU.

 

[Palmerston]

I'm surprised to not see more tph on the non-Huddersfield stations - I had expected more skip stopping to enable 3-4 tph for the local stations which might actually induce demand - before anyone says there isn't any. In this scenario, many don't have services either side of Hudds - e.g. no Mirfield or Batley to Manchester.

Would it not be quicker to change at Huddersfield? Assuming timing is quite sensible. Accept direct trains often preferred.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 2021 census shows:-
Ashton-under-Lyne...48,604
Stalybridge.............26,830
Which town is more deserving to be part of TRU?

 

[skyhigh]

The 2021 census shows:-
Ashton-under-Lyne...48,604
Stalybridge.............26,830
Which town is more deserving to be part of TRU?

Stalybridge, because they don't have the tram.

 

[BranstonJnc]

I'm surprised to not see more tph on the non-Huddersfield stations - I had expected more skip stopping to enable 3-4 tph for the local stations which might actually induce demand - before anyone says there isn't any. In this scenario, many don't have services either side of Hudds - e.g. no Mirfield or Batley to Manchester.

Given the rebuilds and the disruption for all of the 'shacks' and the capacity works, it feels underwhelming - like 1tph extra per hour and a few mins off, but nothing that transformational for many along the route.

If the shuttles were 4tph, or even 3 - I'd see that as an improvement. Cut some buses.

I know there will be some Hudds-Wakefield and the Vic-Brighouse-Leeds route - both might add some local calls?

Seems entirely likely that you will be able to boost Huddersfield - Halifax - Bradford to half-hourly, which would be a real game changer. At the very least, an all-day, good-quality, hourly Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Castleford - York would equally work.

As for Staly and Dewsbury, one has to assume someone has cautiously modelled that a half-hourly 'fast' service is fine, and, more importantly, that adding in more stops will not generate the necessary additional revenue at the expense of the loss of speed between Leeds and Manchester. I'm almost surprised to see that two trains per hour are not in fact non-stop from Manchester to Leeds.

As for something from Hebden Bridge way, through Brighouse, round through Dewsbury up to Leeds, one assumes at least one an hour will persist. Importantly, it shouldn't need to stop everywhere. Maybe just Brighouse, Mirfield (mostly for connections to Wakefield), Dewsbury, Morley (the busiest of the other stations?) and White Rose, if it's not a White Elephant...

 

[Zomboid]

The trains that they're actually proposing to stop in the area will run via Guide Bridge, so a call at Ashton would be impossible.

They're very close together, Stalybridge is the major rail node in that part of the east Manchester conurbation.