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Bus crashes in to a river in the Eastleigh area (26/06)

greenline712

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On the assumption that it was a mechanical fault, I wonder whether commercial drivers have sufficient and suitable preparation for dealing with emergencies like that? Thankfully it's very rare that you get a runaway, but that makes it all the harder for the driver to deal with because it's so completely unexpected. I would like to think that if that happened to me, I would have the presence of mind to knock it into neutral or turn the engine off ... but am I confident that I would be able to think rationally and not just go into a blind panic, or freeze? Absolutely not.
Modern buses don't have gears as such ... they have push buttons for DRIVE NEUTRAL REVERSE. If the driver did experience a jammed throttle, there is little to be done other than brake heavily. Even a parking brake would not retard the bus quickly ... it is a 'parking' brake!

This incident reminds me of a Leyland National that I was driving some 45 years ago ... LNs had a semi-automatic gearbox whereby it WAS possible to deselect gears, but not immediately ... there was a delay of a few seconds before it took effect. This bus (probably 8 years old) suffered from a "racing" throttle; apparently a pin had come out in the linkage to the engine. Luckily I was driving up a slight hill, and was able to knock the gears out and stamp on the footbrake to stop the bus. It took nearly 20 seconds pulling on the emergency engine stop (at the back of the bus) to starve the engine of fuel before it stopped ... a VERY scary time!!!

Looking at the dashcam footage, it looks like the driver headed for the river as somewhere (anywhere!) to stop the bus. No driver training will include this ... how could it?
 
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Towers

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Modern buses don't have gears as such ... they have push buttons for DRIVE NEUTRAL REVERSE. If the driver did experience a jammed throttle, there is little to be done other than brake heavily. Even a parking brake would not retard the bus quickly ... it is a 'parking' brake!
There would presumably be nothing in the circumstances to prevent a driver from selecting Neutral, unless the gearbox would prevent that whilst in motion for some reason? Auto cars will generally allow it, certainly. I can’t say I’ve ever tried it in a bus!

By way of some light relief I have to say that your mention of a National with a “racing throttle” brings some interesting images to mind; some of the ‘yoof’ around here have “racing throttles” but thankfully not in Leyland Nationals!

Briefly, as it’s way off topic, an acquaintance occasionally tells a story of being a “breadvan” (minibus) driver in National Bus Company days and doing overtime on a ‘big bus’ shift with a National. Having reversed it out of a bus station bay and selected a forward gear he had a ‘moment’ and couldn’t work out why the bus wasn’t moving off despite the engine revving. He quickly remembered that this was due to the handbrake being applied, so he released it - without taking his boot off of the throttle. His passengers weren’t impressed…
 
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stevieinselby

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Modern buses don't have gears as such ... they have push buttons for DRIVE NEUTRAL REVERSE. If the driver did experience a jammed throttle, there is little to be done other than brake heavily.
Would the driver not be able to select Neutral while the bus was moving? Or turn the engine off? (I know that's very much the nuclear option if you then lose power assistance to the steering and brakes, but in that situation it seems like the lesser of two evils)
 

greenline712

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Would the driver not be able to select Neutral while the bus was moving? Or turn the engine off? (I know that's very much the nuclear option if you then lose power assistance to the steering and brakes, but in that situation it seems like the lesser of two evils)
It might seem so, but the buses fitted with push-button gear operation do not immediately release gears if neutral is selected. Similarly, turning off the engine in the cab doesn't necessarily immediately turn off the engine itself. It is all down to electrics nowadays. A car is very different.
An emergency engine stop on a bus, and I dare say in a lorry as well, where the engine is remote from the driver, works by starving the engine of fuel.

We don't know what actions the driver took; nor do we know the condition of the bus. I daresay we will in time . . . perhaps, until then . . .
 

Lewisham2221

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It might seem so, but the buses fitted with push-button gear operation do not immediately release gears if neutral is selected. Similarly, turning off the engine in the cab doesn't necessarily immediately turn off the engine itself. It is all down to electrics nowadays. A car is very different.
An emergency engine stop on a bus, and I dare say in a lorry as well, where the engine is remote from the driver, works by starving the engine of fuel.

We don't know what actions the driver took; nor do we know the condition of the bus. I daresay we will in time . . . perhaps, until then . . .
I was also once told by a fitter that the handbrake/parking brake won't apply above a certain speed either. Needless to say I took his word for it and never tested it myself!
 

whoosh

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Could it have been something in the engine bay, rather than a problem with the accelerator pedal itself?

This makes an interesting read - from Rob Haywood's site about his time with Leicester City Transport. He was later a bus driver in Hull, which also had Metro-Scanias.
Under 'photo 14' about the Metro-Scania:



Management always denied power-surges happened, even when people were hurt, and even I began to doubt it - until I had one myself. It caught me completely unawares as it took off like a missile from a stop one quiet Sunday afternoon on a Hull council estate. I'd just set down a little girl, closed the doors, and had barely touched the throttle, and - Whoooosh - I was almost at the end of the street!! It made more smoke than I've ever seen from something that was not actually on fire, other than perhaps a Centurian tank starting up. The force actually pressed me into the back of my seat, an incredible experience, and one that I was very loathe to talk to anyone else about, given the wide scepticism around. It frightened me, and I was very much on my guard should it happen again, but it never did. I was very lucky in that instance, for there was nothing but a clear road in front of me, when normally there were some parked cars just beyond the bus stop. I dared not even change the bus when I got back to town, for what could I tell them, except to attract a heap of ridicule upon myself. I've even questioned whether I should relate it here, but I think it's time, whatever my old collegues may think. And no, it was not my imagination. My little old 2-ltr Peugeot couldn't take off like that.....
....I have a theory, a small one, that it was caused essentially by careful and slow driving. It seemed to happen to the steadiest of men, those that didn't rush unduly and took their time. Those that raced around, throttle to the floor, never seemed to experience this. I was on a Sunday service, running to time, hardly anybody on, and no reason to drive even remotely quickly. For crying out loud, that day I was almost asleep I was that laid back! So how? My theory is that slow driving, sometimes not much above tickover, allowed fuel to gather somewhere in the pump, unburnt. It would build up until, just the tiniest dab on the throttle would release the lot in one go, and whoosh, you were driving a rocket, with about as much control. Come on engineers, tell me that is wrong. How the hell else could it happen?

Another Metro-Scania (a London Transport one) famously ended up in Clapton Pond.
 

philthetube

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Modern buses don't have gears as such ... they have push buttons for DRIVE NEUTRAL REVERSE. If the driver did experience a jammed throttle, there is little to be done other than brake heavily. Even a parking brake would not retard the bus quickly ... it is a 'parking' brake!

This incident reminds me of a Leyland National that I was driving some 45 years ago ... LNs had a semi-automatic gearbox whereby it WAS possible to deselect gears, but not immediately ... there was a delay of a few seconds before it took effect. This bus (probably 8 years old) suffered from a "racing" throttle; apparently a pin had come out in the linkage to the engine. Luckily I was driving up a slight hill, and was able to knock the gears out and stamp on the footbrake to stop the bus. It took nearly 20 seconds pulling on the emergency engine stop (at the back of the bus) to starve the engine of fuel before it stopped ... a VERY scary time!!!

Looking at the dashcam footage, it looks like the driver headed for the river as somewhere (anywhere!) to stop the bus. No driver training will include this ... how could it?
So I am not the only one, I had a National 2 with the same issue, fortunately I was only moving slowly and got it out of gear and stopped, no problem, the exhaust created a hole in the road however. There was no external fuel cut off on a national 2 which seemed wierd.
 

Zamracene749

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Handbrake will apply regardless of speed, same as can knock this type of bus into neutral whenever you like
Not much use to stop a vehicle at roadspeed if the engine is powering.
Nor are the service brakes, they just aren't designed to dissipate that amount of heat. The friction linings begin to melt, then the lining between the drum and the brake basically evaporates and becomes a lubricant.
I've driven a car when the throttle stuck open at speed (not relevant to this event, but it was condensation frozen by the carburettor in the throttle cable) its a scary thing, the brakes very quickly become less than useless. A large vehicle has far less braking in reserve than a car, not helped by the trend towards smaller wheels for low entry.
Plus of course, we are talking airbrakes here. Yes, they have a spring assist if you run out of air (that's basically the parking brake), but it is feeble to say the least. Actual braking depends on pressure in the cylinders.
Once the brakes have faded, you may as well be driving a bobsled. Putting it into N won't help, because how are you going to stop it? The only way to slow down is to scrape something solid or as this chap did, drive into something soft. His decision was no doubt influenced by the pedestrian crossing a few metres ahead of where he ditched the bus, at that time of day there will have been stopped cars and people on the crossing?
 

lightning76

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Could it have been something in the engine bay, rather than a problem with the accelerator pedal itself?

This makes an interesting read - from Rob Haywood's site about his time with Leicester City Transport. He was later a bus driver in Hull, which also had Metro-Scanias.
Under 'photo 14' about the Metro-Scania:





Another Metro-Scania (a London Transport one) famously ended up in Clapton Pond.

"Power surges" do happen, I've experienced probably 3 or 4 in my 27 years on the buses, all on Dennis Darts / Tridents. I have to say none were quite as dramatic as the incident quoted, but they certainly can and do happen and are extremely disconcerting.

However from the information posted on this thread, I wouldn't expect that to be the cause in this case.
 

Zamracene749

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Edit- also- it wouldn't need to be throttle failure. Diesel engines can suffer from turbocharger oil seal failure. When this happens, the engine will run away on full power burning the lubricating oil.Nothing can then stop it until the sump oil runs out or it explodes/seizes.
I'm simply throwing in a few factors that might exonerate the driver?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

"Power surges" do happen, I've experienced probably 3 or 4 in my 27 years on the buses, all on Dennis Darts / Tridents. I have to say none were quite as dramatic as the incident quoted, but they certainly can and do happen and are extremely disconcerting.

However from the information posted on this thread, I wouldn't expect that to be the cause in this case.
Quoted from the guardian after the fatal accident in Sunderland, 1998.
'The history of unexpected power surges or unintentional acceleration had been known to Dennis for more than a decade with separate reports from the Motor Industry Research Association, the Cranfield research institute and an ergonomics company all highlighting the problem. The company said that design improvements had been made after the Mira and Cranfield reports in the early 1990s, but acknowledged that incidents continued until the Sunderland tragedy.'
The driver involved in that one, reknowned as being careful, came to a sad end after being made the scapegoat, despite the courts clearing him.
 

Towers

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Edit- also- it wouldn't need to be throttle failure. Diesel engines can suffer from turbocharger oil seal failure. When this happens, the engine will run away on full power burning the lubricating oil.Nothing can then stop it until the sump oil runs out or it explodes/seizes.
I'm simply throwing in a few factors that might exonerate the driver?
An engine burning its oil in that manner is, of course, immediately identifiable owing to the dense, dark smoke that it will create.
 

Leyland Bus

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Edit- also- it wouldn't need to be throttle failure. Diesel engines can suffer from turbocharger oil seal failure. When this happens, the engine will run away on full power burning the lubricating oil.Nothing can then stop it until the sump oil runs out or it explodes/seizes.
I'm simply throwing in a few factors that might exonerate the driver?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Quoted from the guardian after the fatal accident in Sunderland, 1998.
'The history of unexpected power surges or unintentional acceleration had been known to Dennis for more than a decade with separate reports from the Motor Industry Research Association, the Cranfield research institute and an ergonomics company all highlighting the problem. The company said that design improvements had been made after the Mira and Cranfield reports in the early 1990s, but acknowledged that incidents continued until the Sunderland tragedy.'
The driver involved in that one, reknowned as being careful, came to a sad end after being made the scapegoat, despite the courts clearing him.
I thought about the turbo drinking oil but having witnessed that happening first hand on a B10BLE in a bus garage, the smoke emitted is horrific, it filled an entire depot in minutes with thick acrid smoke, there was no sign of that on any of the videos.

Also, all the talk of "just drop it into neutral" is nonsense. The main thought will be about keeping control and probably not letting panic take over. It would likely have all felt like a split second for the driver, its far too easy to suggest this stuff when you're not the one behind the wheel...
 

Howardh

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If a passenger is aware the bus may crash, I wonder what the best position would be in order to receive lesser injuries - we know of the "brace" position inside aircraft, but that would be with a seatbelt on. In the case of a bus, would it be best to take the brace position, cover head with arms and try to force yourself onto the back of the seat in front; thus avoiding whiplash on impact? Or turn your back to the seat in front? Of course there are other issues which could include flying glass, bags etc in which case it's probably pure luck.
 

Zamracene749

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An engine burning its oil in that manner is, of course, immediately identifiable owing to the dense, dark smoke that it will create.
Absolutely. I've no idea how quickly I'd cotton on to what was happening if I was the poor bugger driving the bus at the time though, mirrors were probably the last thing on his mind? When the thing you are steering suddenly starts to accelerate of it's own will, what's behind you is the last thing to worry about I guess, be it smoke or police!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I thought about the turbo drinking oil but having witnessed that happening first hand on a B10BLE in a bus garage, the smoke emitted is horrific, it filled an entire depot in minutes with thick acrid smoke, there was no sign of that on any of the videos.

Also, all the talk of "just drop it into neutral" is nonsense. The main thought will be about keeping control and probably not letting panic take over. It would likely have all felt like a split second for the driver, its far too easy to suggest this stuff when you're not the one behind the wheel...
Again, absolutely. Split seconds to work out what the hell is going on.
 

Statto

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Update from BBC


The driver of a double-decker college bus which crashed off a road into a river has been described as a "hero" by one of the first people to reach the scene.
The bus was seen swerving through oncoming traffic and ploughed through railings on the wrong side of Bishopstoke Road in Eastleigh, Hampshire, at about 10:00 BST on Thursday.
Dr John Fisher, who helped rescue students, told the BBC: "It feels that he tried to ditch it to avoid a head-on crash... it's a bit of a miracle."
Police said the driver, a 69-year-old man and a student, a 16-year-old girl who suffered serious injuries remain in hospital. Three other students suffered serious injuries and a further 15 had minor injuries.
Blue double decker bus in river the water is just up to its wheels, the bus is badly damaged with windows smashed and debris strewn around the bus in the water.
Image source, Andrew Matthews/PA Media
Image caption,
The bus carrying pupils from Barton Peveril Sixth Form College came off the road on Thursday morning
Police said the three students with serious injuries - two girls and one boy, all aged 17 - have since been discharged from hospital.
Of the 15 other passengers, aged between 16 and 18, who suffered minor injuries, three received hospital treatment.
Det Sgt Gary Doughty of Hampshire Constabulary said: "This must have been a terrifying ordeal for everyone on the bus and for the families of the young passengers.
"We have worked closely with staff from the college to contact the families of all those involved and I want to thank the college for their assistance with this, as well as our ambulance and fire service colleagues for their help with the injured parties and recovery of the bus.
Witnesses to the crash have already provided "key information" to help investigators establish what happened, he added.
"While we understand it will be tempting for people and the media to speculate on the potential causes of the collision, we just want to stress that officers are in the early stages of their investigation and are keeping an open mind."
He urged any witnesses and anyone with relevant dash cam footage to come forward.
Police have also praised the bravery of members of the public and emergency services who helped rescue some of the students and the driver who were trapped.
River with debris from bus following crash floating and submerged in the water

Image caption,
A window from the bus and debris remained in the river on Friday morning
The B3037 Bishopstoke Road was closed in both directions while police gathered evidence.
Work to remove the double-decker was carried out overnight with it lifted on to the road in the early hours. It was later towed away and the road reopened.
Dr Fisher, a retired university teacher, whose garden backs on to the river said he was marking exams when he heard an "enormous crash... we came out and there was a double-decker bus at the end of the garden".
He said using steps that go down into the water, along with his wife, a retired nurse, and neighbours, they "found the children around the bus and went and helped them".
He believed the driver tried to avoid hitting vehicles and pedestrians before landing in the river.
"We think the driver is a bit of a hero," Dr Fisher said.
Dr John Fisher standing with his arm on a railing by a road crossing over a river - he is bald with glasses and is wearing a grey T-shirt.

Image caption,
Dr John Fisher, along with his wife and neighbours, helped the students as they emerged from the bus
Another witness previously told the BBC the driver reported that his brakes and accelerator failed at the same time.
Kelly West, who was one of the first on the scene, said: "It does appear that what he was saying was that the brakes didn't work and the accelerator was jammed because it was horrifically fast, it was speeding massively."
The Bluestar bus, carrying Barton Peveril Sixth Form College students, hit a lamp-post, shattering a windscreen, before leaving the road, according to student Freddie Sampson, who was on the top deck.
The 18-year-old said: "It was like we couldn't stop and had to weave through traffic trying not to hit any cars and then the bus driver lost control - we went flying into the river."
Freddie Sampson has a cut on his nose. He has curly, brown hair and wears a white T-shirt.

Image caption,
Student Freddie Sampson said the bus was "weaving through traffic"
Bruno Aguiar, who captured the moments before the crash on his dashcams, was among the first on the scene after seeing the bus swerve past him as he drove in the opposite direction in his van.
The electrician used his ladder to get several of the students off the bus.
He said: "I was heading to work, I saw a bus coming towards my direction, I don't know how but I had the reflexes to pull over.
"Then when I looked in my mirror I stopped seeing the bus and thought... where's the bus? Then it clicked... they went into the river."
He said he ran to the river and saw that the top deck of the bus "was full of children... so I ran back to the van to get my ladder and started telling children to come out of the bus".
"I was in shock with everything but my main goal was to help the children get out," he added.
Bruno Aguiar wearing a orange t-shirt, he has short brown hair and is facing the camera

Image caption,
Bruno Aguiar said his "main goal" was to get the children out the bus
Bus in the water surrounded by fire services
 

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