Travelled using Southern All-Network Downlander and charged to use Gatwick Express

[Drsatan]

Hello everyone,

Today I went track bashing with my Dad using Southern's All-Network Downlander (available on Southern's website at £12.50 per person). We arrived at Gatwick Airport at around 1105 and discovered waiting in the adjacent platform was the 1120 Gatwick Express. Assuming that the Downlander ticket was valid on the Gatwick Express, given that the Gatwick Express franchise is now part of Southern, we got on board.

When the conductor walked through the train checking tickets, she looked at our ticket and stated that it was not valid on this train since it was only valid on Southern services (stated on the ticket). I replied that this train was a Southern service, since it was operated by Southern, and that Southern seem to be partially phasing out the 'Gatwick Express' brand, considering that 'Gatwick' had been erased from the train's on board signage, the 'Gatwick Express' branding had been removed from the train's exterior and that the 'Gatwick Express' units often work to Brighton and Eastbourne. Nonetheless, she insisted that the ticket was only valid on 'Southern' services and charged us for an anytime single from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria (£11.85 with a 16-25 and Senior Railcard discount).

Does anyone know where I stand with this? As far as I am aware, the conductor acted wrongly since the train was operated by Southern and the Downlander ticket's T&C's DO NOT say 'This ticket cannot be used on Gatwick Express services. However, for future reference, I've kept both tickets and the receipt. I'd also be very grateful if anyone could advise me on what to do next.

Thanks in advance​

 

[ushawk]

I believe Gatwick Express is a sub-brand operated by Southern (hence why trains are shown as Gatwick Express on departure boards). I think Southern tickets are only valid on an "Express" train if it says so on departure boards.

If it doesnt say you cant use it in the T&C's - then i would certainly contact Southern about that.

 

[island]

There are several people on this board who will be very happy to write a letter for you to Southern about this. The only unfortunate thing is that you paid (rather than getting a UPFN) — your letter would get a lot more attention if you had not paid.

 

[Mojo]

It does not say that it is not valid on Gatwick Express, it just says ''only valid on train services provided by Southern.''

The Gatwick Express website says ''Gatwick Express is operated by Southern'' and the ORR website says that the direct non-stop services between Victoria and Gatwick Airport are operated by Southern Railway Limited.

If I were in your case I would have refused to pay and taken an Unpaid Fares Notice, however it is too late for that. Expect Southern to refuse to repay the money they took off you!

 

[Drsatan]

If I were in your case I would have refused to pay and taken an Unpaid Fares Notice, however it is too late for that. Expect Southern to refuse to repay the money they took off you!

Great, I didn't think about asking for one! I assumed I'd receive a penalty fare if I refused to pay.

 

[yorkie]

Great, I didn't think about asking for one! I assumed I'd receive a penalty fare if I refused to pay.

This has cropped up numerous times before. Our advice always is, and continues to be, to not actually pay any money but instead to accept an Unpaid Fare Notice. This can be appealed. You will now have to write to Southern (feel free to PM me for proof reading to ensure the letter is not easily dismissed) asking for a refund but the onus is now on you to persue them so it will be harder for you to succeeed.

A penalty fare has nothing to do with this because
1) The train you travelled on is not a PF train (between Gatwick & London)
2) PFs are not applicable to being 'off route'
3) PFs are nothing to do with whether you pay immediately or not.

 

[Drsatan]

This has cropped up numerous times before. Our advice always is, and continues to be, to not actually pay any money but instead to accept an Unpaid Fare Notice. This can be appealed. You will now have to write to Southern (feel free to PM me for proof reading to ensure the letter is not easily dismissed) asking for a refund but the onus is now on you to persue them so it will be harder for you to succeeed.

A penalty fare has nothing to do with this because
1) The train you travelled on is not a PF train (between Gatwick & London)
2) PFs are not applicable to being 'off route'
3) PFs are nothing to do with whether you pay immediately or not.

Thanks for clarifying when and where a PF can be issued. I definitely will write a letter to Southern, but I'll address it to someone high up, since if address it to Southern's customer services the letter will probably go straight in the bin. Does anyone know to whom at Southern I should write to?

 

[pendolino]

Assuming that the Downlander ticket was valid on the Gatwick Express.....

That's where you went wrong I'm afraid.

From the T&Cs:

Downlander is an eTicket which is only valid on train services provided by Southern and bus services provided by Brighton and Hove, Cuckmere, Eastbourne and Rider.

Gatwick Express may be owned by Southern, but that's irrelevant (and most passengers would be unaware of this anyway); they're still run as discrete services, and Southern tickets are not generally valid, except where clearly stated on departure boards.

 

[Phil6219]

It may not be applicable in this case but some tickets used to say "Not valid on Gatwick Express" (Travelcards, Single & Return tickets) if boarding or alighting on the Brighton Main Line.

Either way good luck in getting a refund mate

 

[ushawk]

It may not be applicable in this case but some tickets used to say "Not valid on Gatwick Express" (Travelcards, Single & Return tickets) if boarding or alighting on the Brighton Main Line.

Either way good luck in getting a refund mate

Still do, either Not Gatwick Express or Any Permitted - only shown on normal tickets though and not Day Save ones.

 

[Olympian]

All Network Downlander: valid for unlimited, off-peak travel on all Southern services. For details of where our services go, see the Southern Network Map at southernrailway.com

The network map includes the "Gatwick Express Route", so implies it's valid on Gatwick Express.

 

[Drsatan]

Still do, either Not Gatwick Express or Any Permitted - only shown on normal tickets though and not Day Save ones.

Looked at NFM08 using Avantix Traveller and it's still possible to buy 'NOT GATWICK EXPRESS' tickets - very misleading since Southern appear to be alternately using 'Express' and 'Gatwick Express' branding.

 

[Mojo]

That's where you went wrong I'm afraid.

From the T&Cs:

Gatwick Express may be owned by Southern, but that's irrelevant (and most passengers would be unaware of this anyway); they're still run as discrete services, and Southern tickets are not generally valid, except where clearly stated on departure boards.

I beg to differ.

I respect the right of Southern to prevent customers from using their Gatwick Express services on cheaper tickets, and on a number of tickets they have correctly identified these tickets as "Not Gatwick Express." The website and route map are clear enough. Southern operate services using the brand ''Gatwick Express'' (which doesn't even appear on most of the trains). Gatwick Express services are operated by Southern.

I can imagine the situation in court whereby Southern Railway would attempt to prosecute someone for using a ''Southern Only'' ticket on one of their services.

 

[pendolino]

I beg to differ.

I respect the right of Southern to prevent customers from using their Gatwick Express services on cheaper tickets, and on a number of tickets they have correctly identified these tickets as "Not Gatwick Express." The website and route map are clear enough. Southern operate services using the brand ''Gatwick Express'' (which doesn't even appear on most of the trains). Gatwick Express services are operated by Southern.

I can imagine the situation in court whereby Southern Railway would attempt to prosecute someone for using a ''Southern Only'' ticket on one of their services.

That was a hasty edit

It doesn't alter the reality that Gatwick Express (branding or not) have their own ticketing arrangements.

 

[Mojo]

That was a hasty edit

Eh?

It doesn't alter the reality that Gatwick Express (branding or not) have their own ticketing arrangements.

What do you mean by ''their own ticketing arrangements?'' No company can operate above the law!

 

[pendolino]

Eh?

I started to reply to your post, then refreshed the page and you'd heavily edited what you wrote.

What do you mean by ''their own ticketing arrangements?'' No company can operate above the law!

Why such hyperbole? All I meant is that they issue their own tickets, separate from Southern.

 

[Mojo]

I started to reply to your post, then refreshed the page and you'd heavily edited what you wrote.

So? I added more information. It's hardly like I'd changed what I said.

Why such hyperbole? All I meant is that they issue their own tickets, separate from Southern.

I fail to see the exaggeration. Gatwick Express don't issue any tickets; as they are not a trading company! There are non-stop train services between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria and travel on these services is governed by the National Conditions of Carriage as well as the law of the land.

The OP held a ticket for which the Terms state ''Downlander is an eTicket which is only valid on train services provided by Southern.'' Seems simple enough. What sources of information are available for someone who wants to find out the train services which Southern operate?

Well, I'd imagine the first port of call would be the Southern Network Map, which clearly shows the non stop services between Victoria and Gatwick Airport. They might want to check with the ORR for all services, which shows Southern as operating non stop services between Victoria and Gatwick Airport. They may even search Google for ''London Gatwick train'' and find a website on which every page it says ''Gatwick Express is operated by Southern.''

 

[MikeWh]

Why such hyperbole? All I meant is that they issue their own tickets, separate from Southern.

But 'they' are 'Southern'. How can they be separate from themselves.

 

[causton]

I think there is NO doubt about this.

Exhibit A

- All Network Downlander: valid for unlimited, off-peak travel on all Southern services. For details of where our services go, see the Southern Network Map at southernrailway.com

Exhibit B: Southern Network Map
http://www.southernrailway.com/images/network_map_full.jpg

Can you see that the Gatwick Express is in the Southern Network Map?
Can you see that the T&Cs say that the ticket is valid on any Southern service?
Can you see that the Gatwick Express is marked on the map as a Southern service (not marked as 'other operators')?
QED. Surely?

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't alter the reality that Gatwick Express (branding or not) have their own ticketing arrangements.

Who is/are Gatwick Express exactly? They are not a TOC...

Does the website lie when it says that it is operated by Southern?

If the OP refused to pay, which TOC would be issuing an unpaid fare notice or prosecuting?

(Only answer this with an accurate response please; if you don't know just admit it)

 

[Mojo]

If the OP wishes to make a complaint he will have to write to PO Box 3021, Bristol, BS2 2BS. This address has been taken from the Gatwick Express website. Funnily enough it's also the address listed for Southern on their website.

 

[spacehopper]

Hasn't this thread already been done before?

Reminds me when college students used to claim their student bus passes were valid on the train as "map on back shows this area and it says valid for travel on all First "services".

 

[Mike395]

Hasn't this thread already been done before?

Reminds me when college students used to claim their student bus passes were valid on the train as "map on back shows this area and it says valid for travel on all First "services".

Yes - I recall a similar thread a while back about Gatwick Express validity on Southern tickets.

The situation is a bit different than with the bus pass - a buss pass is clearly marked as such, and thus is not valid on rail services unless specifically saying otherwise.

The issue in this case is that Gatwick Express services, whilst branded differently, are operated by Southern - and because of this, Southern-only tickets ARE valid on it - even if Southern themselves refuse to admit this.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The situation is a bit different than with the bus pass - a buss pass is clearly marked as such, and thus is not valid on rail services unless specifically saying otherwise.

.

I remember a few months ago I had a passenger in West Yorkshire arguing that they could use their "FirstWeek" bus ticket on the train. They quite rightly pointed out that the ticket said nothing about buses or trains, merely saying that it was "valid on all First operated services in West Yorkshire". They then pointed out that TPE was operated by First and hence their ticket was valid.

 

[RJ]

How certain are people regarding the legal stance of the setup? Surely it would have been brought to a stop by now if Southern were operating illicitly. I remain to be convinced.

 

[First class]

I remember a few months ago I had a passenger in West Yorkshire arguing that they could use their "FirstWeek" bus ticket on the train. They quite rightly pointed out that the ticket said nothing about buses or trains, merely saying that it was "valid on all First operated services in West Yorkshire". They then pointed out that TPE was operated by First and hence their ticket was valid.

Did you pass it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How certain are people regarding the legal stance of the setup? Surely it would have been brought to a stop by now if Southern were operating illicitly. I remain to be convinced.

Gatwick Express appears as a separate legal entity in the Railway Byelaws in the list of operators.

The NRCoC is "out of date" but does inform customers to ask the local ticket office for an "up to date" list of operators.

Things like The Manual are also strange:

Cycling by Train advice lists Gatwick Express under 'Southern'.
All entries to The Manual affecting GX are written by Southern.
The list of TOCs does not include any reference to GX

 

[Drsatan]

How certain are people regarding the legal stance of the setup? Surely it would have been brought to a stop by now if Southern were operating illicitly. I remain to be convinced.

That is very true, but then DafT is renowned for turning a 'blind eye' to abuses of the NFM by TOCs. As we all know DafT is quite happy to turn a blind eye to XC not installing WiFi on its trains and thereby breaking a franchise agreement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Gatwick Express appears as a separate legal entity in the Railway Byelaws in the list of operators.

[/QUOTE]

I wasn't aware of that, but chances are the Railway Byelaws were written when Gatwick Express was a TOC in its own right and haven't been updated since.

 

[yorkie]

How is the letter going ? I have time to proof read when on a train this evening

Gatwick express is definitely not a TOC

 

[Mojo]

Gatwick Express appears as a separate legal entity in the Railway Byelaws in the list of operators.

Which copy of the Byelaws are you looking at?

The copy on the DfT website says

“Operator” means:
(i) any person authorised to be the operator of a railway asset by virtue of him holding a licence granted in accordance with Section 8 of the Railways Act 1993 (as amended by the Transport Act 2000; as amended by the Railways Act 2005), and
(ii) those persons listed in Schedule One,
but excluding those persons listed in Schedule Two

A full list of licenses can be found on the ORR website, and no company with the name "Gatwick" holds a license.

 

[paul1609]

Im of the opinion that the Downlander and Daysave tickets were never intended to be valid on Gatwick Express services.However Southern have failed to make this clear when the two franchises merged and I think the OP should be refunded.
Unfortunately I think that if the point is pushed in the future the most likely outcome is that these ticket types both of which are classified as special offers will be withdrawn. They are both hangovers from the original Southern Franchise which was innovative and bold. Both tickets have also extended to Tonbridge and Milton Keynes Central as the franchise has expanded I for one would miss them.